P/RR/S II: Advanced Techniques

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 01:46 AM

I rarely train chest and delts on the same workout so this doesn't often come up for me, but why do you recommend training chest before delts?

(I'm not disagreeing, I've heard it before - I just don't remember hearing the reason.)

rantorcha · 05-19-2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I rarely train chest and delts on the same workout so this doesn't often come up for me, but why do you recommend training chest before delts?

(I'm not disagreeing, I've heard it before - I just don't remember hearing the reason.)

Not to answer this in a condescending way at ALL (I want to make sure you don't take it that way), but try working out delts one day first before chest and you will see that your chest training sufferes greatly. Clearly I don't know the scientific reason per se, but I think since there are so many stabalizer muscles when doing delts that if you do them first they are "fried" and stabalizing the weight for chest is tha much harder...at least that's what has happened to me when I've stupidly tried it once....a long, long time ago. lol

If you want scientific proof, perhaps someone wrote a paper on it once and will post it.

**Built** · 05-19-2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rantorcha

Not to answer this in a condescending way at ALL (I want to make sure you don't take it that way), but try working out delts one day first before chest and you will see that your chest training sufferes greatly. Clearly I don't know the scientific reason per se, but I think since there are so many stabalizer muscles when doing delts that if you do them first they are "fried" and stabalizing the weight for chest is tha much harder...at least that's what has happened to me when I've stupidly tried it once....a long, long time ago. lol

If you want scientific proof, perhaps someone wrote a paper on it once and will post it.

Rantorcha, I have a rotator cuff impingement. I have broken my right shoulder and my right collarbone in two separate injuries, and I have a rotator cuff impingement that flares up if I don't baby the hell out of my delts. If I train delts and pecs on the same day, neither gets hit very hard.

When I train hard and heavy, I generally train delts and pecs on separate workouts, to avoid pissing off my right RC. That's one of the many perqs of training upper body in Ian King's arrangement of horizontal and vertical planes - RC strain is minimized, spread out over two workouts instead of hammering them all at once. Delts of course are used for both vertical and horizontal pressing, of course - this way you have more frequent hits, a strategy that many natural lifters find beneficial.

You're quite right about the stabilizers - but wouldn't the converse also be true, that your delt work would suffer from having trained pecs first? I can't imagine doing heavy clean-and-press after floor-presses and dips!

rantorcha · 05-20-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

You're quite right about the stabilizers - but wouldn't the converse also be true, that your delt work would suffer from having trained pecs first? I can't imagine doing heavy clean-and-press after floor-presses and dips!

I guess if you were using those types of exercises, there is NO WAY you would be able to hit delts afterwards. But if you stick to regular presses, laterals, and rear laterals (if you do rears on that day), you should be ok. Obviously, your "presses weight" would have to go down a smidge, but IMO delts (although much more intricate of a muscle group than chest) are a smaller muscle group and can (emphasis on can) be hit after chest.

You also have to take into consideration what your goals are. That also determines the type of split you incorporate.

**Built** · 05-20-2009, 10:04 AM

Sure, that makes sense.

My goal is hypertrophy in the pecs and hypertrophy in the delts. That's why I use the heavy movements I use, and on separate days.

What is the purpose, in your opinion, of hitting them both with isolation movements and on the same day?

highpockets · 05-21-2009, 06:36 AM

Don't mean to butt in, but I will anyway.

I've been working my chest and delts on the same day for a few P/RR/S 9 week cycles now and I feel that I'm not getting a very good shoulder workout due to hitting the chest first.

I'm going very light this week as I just finished a 9 week cycle last week. Next week I have changed my new 9 week cycle of P/RR/S like this.

Monday: Chest, Tris, Abs
Tuesday: Legs
Wednesday: off
Thursday: Back, Bis, Abs
Friday: Delts

I'm curious to see how this works out for me. Just my .02.

**Built** · 05-21-2009, 07:18 PM

See, that's why I like splitting up chest and delts: you get to hit delts hard, too.

Could you maybe try chest-and-bis (push and pull); back-and-tris (pull and push); hams-and-abs; delts-and-quads (start with delts, while you're fresh)? Spread it out a bit more?

Just a thought. I'm sure you'll come up with something effective.

gopro · 05-22-2009, 11:36 AM

Interestingly, I have used every split imaginable, and working delts right after chest works best for me. I like to hit arms in total on a single day, and give back and legs their own days. My delts get a far better workout and much fuller pump when I work them after chest. This seems to warm up the joint and my rotators making all of my shoulder movement more comfortable and effective. The weights I can use are only minimally affected.

**Prince** · 05-22-2009, 11:50 AM

I also train shoulders after chest, have done it for years, I have tried training shoulders on a separate day but that seems to lead to over training for me, I have never trained shoulders before chest as I think my chest work-out would suffer quite a bit.

**Built** · 05-22-2009, 10:21 PM

I suppose it would be overtraining if you did "shoulder day".

I don't. I train shoulders with at least one other movement pattern, usually a pulling movement, sometimes a pull and legs.

I respect that not everybody needs to spread delt and pec training over different days. I just don't understand why - for those who do - it's better to train delts after pecs if:
1. you train them both on the same day and
2. your objective is hypertrophy for both.

Like I said, I've heard this repeated many times, and it's a moot point for me because it's way too much RC strain on my old injured joints, but it's a puzzle to me.

But then, so is arm day.
I don't think I've ever done "arm day" come to think of it. Or shoulder day or back day or leg day. Hmm... do you perform two bodypart days a week? Or just one?

gopro · 05-23-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I suppose it would be overtraining if you did "shoulder day".

I don't. I train shoulders with at least one other movement pattern, usually a pulling movement, sometimes a pull and legs.

I respect that not everybody needs to spread delt and pec training over different days. I just don't understand why - for those who do - it's better to train delts after pecs if:
1. you train them both on the same day and
2. your objective is hypertrophy for both.

Like I said, I've heard this repeated many times, and it's a moot point for me because it's way too much RC strain on my old injured joints, but it's a puzzle to me.

But then, so is arm day.
I don't think I've ever done "arm day" come to think of it. Or shoulder day or back day or leg day. Hmm... do you perform two bodypart days a week? Or just one?

Current Split:

M: CHEST/DELTS/ABS
T: QUADS/HAMS/CALVES
TH: LATS/TRAPS/LWBACK/ABS
FRI: BIS/TRIS/FOREARMS/CALVES

Exhausted delts will interfere with efficient chest training far more than vice versa because of the nature of the movements/muscles involved.

**Built** · 05-23-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Exhausted delts will interfere with efficient chest training far more than vice versa because of the nature of the movements/muscles involved.

Ah, that's what I've been looking for - thank you.

Can you expand upon this a bit more? What specifically do you mean with regard to the movements/muscles involved?

gopro · 05-23-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Ah, that's what I've been looking for - thank you.

Can you expand upon this a bit more? What specifically do you mean with regard to the movements/muscles involved?

Well, basically what I mean here is that all chest movements...presses, dips, and flyes...all strongly engage the anterior delts especially, with some stimulation of the lateral and posterior heads as well. If your delts are exhausted then all of your chest exercises will be affected, making it not only weaker in all movements, but harder to "feel," as well as to train efficiently (delts will reach failure long before the chest).

The other way around the effect on delt training is not all that bad. Perhaps presses will be affected to some degree, but laterals and upright rows can still be used to isolate the delt heads without engaging the chest. Thus, you can still get an effective delt workout.

**Built** · 05-23-2009, 08:55 PM

Now that makes sense. So since the front delts have had such a massive hit, you don't need to hit them with another massive hit for the ensuing delt work.

Now personally, I've found from experience that my delts grow better from being hit with more volume and more frequency, plus of course my right rotator cuff "issue", so I'll keep my vertical and horizontal pressing separated. But it's good to know this information for those who routinely train both on the same day. Much obliged.

juggernaut · 05-23-2009, 09:55 PM

Built, how did this injury come about?

gopro · 05-23-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Now that makes sense. So since the front delts have had such a massive hit, you don't need to hit them with another massive hit for the ensuing delt work.

Now personally, I've found from experience that my delts grow better from being hit with more volume and more frequency, plus of course my right rotator cuff "issue", so I'll keep my vertical and horizontal pressing separated. But it's good to know this information for those who routinely train both on the same day. Much obliged.

Exactly! I sometimes forego a pressing movement for delts altogether because of all the chest pressing work (and I focus quite a bit on various incline angles), and utilize different types of laterals and upright row type movements.

**Built** · 05-24-2009, 01:09 AM

So strange how these "personal geometries" allow us to do some things well, and limit us in other aspects. I can NOT do upright rows without pain, but bench dips - an utterly HORRIBLE movement for the RC by all accounts, I'm fine with - and I do 'em with two plates on my lap. There's a youtube up of me doing them in Ohio a couple of years ago. My late friend Mike took it on his camera and put it up. I'm so glad he did that, because I can hear his voice in it. I miss him. He was fabulous.

Do you find certain muscles on you seem to respond to more volume than others, Eric? For me, it's delts and quads. Bis I seem to grow in my sleep, and I think I've done abs three times since last summer, but quads, damn they've been my nemesis. My hams are huge, the always want to do EVERYTHING!

Tank316 · 05-25-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

M: CHEST/DELTS/ABS
T: QUADS/HAMS/CALVES
TH: LATS/TRAPS/LWBACK/ABS
FRI: BIS/TRIS/FOREARMS/CALVES

Same here

Quote:

I sometimes forego a pressing movement for delts altogether because of all the chest pressing work (and I focus quite a bit on various incline angles), and utilize different types of laterals and upright row type movements

If I feel up to it, I throw in some OH press, but since I started focusing on SL and uprights rows my shoulders dont get that ''trashed'' feeling. And after my r/c surgery I havent had any issues.

**Built** · 05-25-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Built, how did this injury come about?

My shoulder? I wiped out my RD350 back in 1985. Spent 10 months in a figure eight harnass with a busted collarbone. Then again in 1995, busted my right shoulder when I hit a pothole while riding my bicycle going downhill to see the fireworks. Heh - never did make it that year.

gopro · 05-27-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Do you find certain muscles on you seem to respond to more volume than others, Eric? For me, it's delts and quads. Bis I seem to grow in my sleep, and I think I've done abs three times since last summer, but quads, damn they've been my nemesis. My hams are huge, the always want to do EVERYTHING!

For me, not really. All my muscles seem to need about equal volume, although I do a bit more for my back than other groups.

**Pirate!** · 05-27-2009, 08:17 PM

I have RC issues, and the shoulder plan Eric set up for me had every lateral in the book with no horizontal presses. It was easy on my shoulder and yeilded decent results. However, the lying dumbell pullovers for my lats were problematic. Just seeing people do dips makes me cringe.

I could use some fresh ideas for tightening up my rc. I do all my old rehab exercises, but's it's pretty lose, and I'm getting impingement and sub-acromial bursits. I know baseball pitchers and quarterbacks trainers have some techniques. I showed some swimming techniques to my therapist a few years ago, and he recommend I stop those.

**Pirate!** · 05-27-2009, 09:29 PM

After rereading a great article called shoulder savers by Eric Creesey, I realized one of my many errors has been total neglect of subscapularis work, which explains why I can't seem to keep my left humerus depressed dispite all my serratus work.

**Built** · 05-27-2009, 11:04 PM

Look for an article by Boris Bachman called "shouldering through the pain", and look for the shoulder series by his nom du plume on youtube: johnny mnemonic.

YouTube Video

Phenomenally helpful.

Have you tried doing Oly bar corner presses for your pushing work? They're awesome! Also, in addition to avoiding the pullovers, no upright rows of course, and no wider-than-shouder pulldowns.

You done scapular pushups? Go to a plank, keep the arms straight, and sink into your scapulae, then push them back up, all with the arms straight. I could barely do them when I started. Now I do them all the time, on my non-upper-body days, when I'm stretching after I train. Do a few sets of ten whenever you think of it.

juggernaut · 05-28-2009, 06:33 AM

t-nation did an exercise where you start out doing a sumo deadlift and corner press with the end of the bar. My clients love it and it really gets the heart rate going.

05-18-2009, 01:46 AM	#61
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	I rarely train chest and delts on the same workout so this doesn't often come up for me, but why do you recommend training chest before delts? (I'm not disagreeing, I've heard it before - I just don't remember hearing the reason.) Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-20-2009, 10:04 AM	#65
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Sure, that makes sense. My goal is hypertrophy in the pecs and hypertrophy in the delts. That's why I use the heavy movements I use, and on separate days. What is the purpose, in your opinion, of hitting them both with isolation movements and on the same day? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-21-2009, 07:18 PM	#67
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	See, that's why I like splitting up chest and delts: you get to hit delts hard, too. Could you maybe try chest-and-bis (push and pull); back-and-tris (pull and push); hams-and-abs; delts-and-quads (start with delts, while you're fresh)? Spread it out a bit more? Just a thought. I'm sure you'll come up with something effective. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-22-2009, 11:36 AM	#68
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: GLOBAL! Posts: 10,891	Interestingly, I have used every split imaginable, and working delts right after chest works best for me. I like to hit arms in total on a single day, and give back and legs their own days. My delts get a far better workout and much fuller pump when I work them after chest. This seems to warm up the joint and my rotators making all of my shoulder movement more comfortable and effective. The weights I can use are only minimally affected. All American EFX Sponsored Pro Bodybuilder/Internet Marketing Manager P/RR/S DVD and E-Book now available! P/RR/S DVD http://www.home-gym.com/erbrporepras.html P/RR/S E-BOOK html www.X-traordinaryWorkouts.com Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

05-22-2009, 11:50 AM	#69
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,274 Photos: 356	I also train shoulders after chest, have done it for years, I have tried training shoulders on a separate day but that seems to lead to over training for me, I have never trained shoulders before chest as I think my chest work-out would suffer quite a bit. IronMagLabs 1-ANDRO Rx Pro-Hormone - BUY 2 GET 1 FREE SPECIAL! BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding, Fitness & Training Blog. Maximizer.com - Maximizer Strength for Maximum Performance Befriend on Myspace Follow on Twitter

05-21-2009, 06:36 AM	#66
highpockets STILL workin' it! Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 308	Don't mean to butt in, but I will anyway. I've been working my chest and delts on the same day for a few P/RR/S 9 week cycles now and I feel that I'm not getting a very good shoulder workout due to hitting the chest first. I'm going very light this week as I just finished a 9 week cycle last week. Next week I have changed my new 9 week cycle of P/RR/S like this. Monday: Chest, Tris, Abs Tuesday: Legs Wednesday: off Thursday: Back, Bis, Abs Friday: Delts I'm curious to see how this works out for me. Just my .02.

05-22-2009, 10:21 PM	#70
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	I suppose it would be overtraining if you did "shoulder day". I don't. I train shoulders with at least one other movement pattern, usually a pulling movement, sometimes a pull and legs. I respect that not everybody needs to spread delt and pec training over different days. I just don't understand why - for those who do - it's better to train delts after pecs if: 1. you train them both on the same day and 2. your objective is hypertrophy for both. Like I said, I've heard this repeated many times, and it's a moot point for me because it's way too much RC strain on my old injured joints, but it's a puzzle to me. But then, so is arm day. I don't think I've ever done "arm day" come to think of it. Or shoulder day or back day or leg day. Hmm... do you perform two bodypart days a week? Or just one? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-23-2009, 08:55 PM	#74
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Now that makes sense. So since the front delts have had such a massive hit, you don't need to hit them with another massive hit for the ensuing delt work. Now personally, I've found from experience that my delts grow better from being hit with more volume and more frequency, plus of course my right rotator cuff "issue", so I'll keep my vertical and horizontal pressing separated. But it's good to know this information for those who routinely train both on the same day. Much obliged. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-23-2009, 09:55 PM	#75
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	Built, how did this injury come about?

05-24-2009, 01:09 AM	#77
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	So strange how these "personal geometries" allow us to do some things well, and limit us in other aspects. I can NOT do upright rows without pain, but bench dips - an utterly HORRIBLE movement for the RC by all accounts, I'm fine with - and I do 'em with two plates on my lap. There's a youtube up of me doing them in Ohio a couple of years ago. My late friend Mike took it on his camera and put it up. I'm so glad he did that, because I can hear his voice in it. I miss him. He was fabulous. Do you find certain muscles on you seem to respond to more volume than others, Eric? For me, it's delts and quads. Bis I seem to grow in my sleep, and I think I've done abs three times since last summer, but quads, damn they've been my nemesis. My hams are huge, the always want to do EVERYTHING! Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-27-2009, 08:17 PM	#81
Pirate! Gatekepper Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 6,145	I have RC issues, and the shoulder plan Eric set up for me had every lateral in the book with no horizontal presses. It was easy on my shoulder and yeilded decent results. However, the lying dumbell pullovers for my lats were problematic. Just seeing people do dips makes me cringe. I could use some fresh ideas for tightening up my rc. I do all my old rehab exercises, but's it's pretty lose, and I'm getting impingement and sub-acromial bursits. I know baseball pitchers and quarterbacks trainers have some techniques. I showed some swimming techniques to my therapist a few years ago, and he recommend I stop those. My 1-Andro RX Journal

05-27-2009, 09:29 PM	#82
Pirate! Gatekepper Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 6,145	After rereading a great article called shoulder savers by Eric Creesey, I realized one of my many errors has been total neglect of subscapularis work, which explains why I can't seem to keep my left humerus depressed dispite all my serratus work. My 1-Andro RX Journal

05-28-2009, 06:33 AM	#84
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	t-nation did an exercise where you start out doing a sumo deadlift and corner press with the end of the bar. My clients love it and it really gets the heart rate going.

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