Robboe

Josh, how has your bodyfat differed in this time frame?

Yanks, how will that aid his chest gains?

Being held down by The Man

Yanks20

i too was wondering about his diet.

regarding moving his exercises around, in the past i have done similiar routines and my PERSONAL experience is that doing that much volume hurt my progress by putting such a large strain on the shoulders in one day. after about 4 weeks i had to switch up the routine.

Josh

Yanks, I think you are refering to the routines which I took from Anthony Ellis' program (which I no longer do at this time). The reason bench press is put together with shoulder press (and dips and tricep pushdown) is because they all work the same muscles, either as major or as synergists. When doing bench press first, this will do mostly chest, but it will also work shoulder and tricep. So by the time my bench press is done, my shoulder and tricep have also been worked on for some degree. Doing shoulder press following bench press will mean continuing to work on the shoulder muscles which has already been prepared. Same reasoning with doing pushdown afterward.

As for doing 4-day split, I am always afraid of overtraining, so I always stay with 3-day split.

What do you think? -- Josh

Josh

Chicken Daddy, it was about 23% when I first started, now is 27.5%. Maybe you're wondering why I've gained fat instead of loosing it which I think is the goal of every bodybuilder. When I first realized that my fat level is very high, I did follow some guidelines to lose fat, through controled diet and exercises. But my weight kept dropping (from 144 lbs to 139 lbs even to 135 at some point), while my fat level stayed the same, so I decided to stop this fat loss cycle after about 1-2 months. My wife suggested that maybe I should first bulk up by eating more and do mass gain exercises, and then after I gain substantial weight then I can do gradual fat loss. Thus from that time on I simply do not measure my fat level, and I consume a bit more than I normally take, while making conscious effort to eat more meat (though I do not measure the grams and calories exactly). Today I weight 152 lbs, but with 27+% fat and a bigger stomach than chest.

What do you suggest? -- Josh

dg806

It's hard to believe you that you workout and have 27% bf at 152 lbs! Have I missed something? If you had not of told your weight, I would have guessed over 200 lbs to get 27%.

www.sbmuscle.com

Josh

Oh ya? Have I been measuring my fat level incorrectly, you think? I use caliper at 9 points to get my measurements in mm (chest, tri, bi, suprailiac, lower back, back, stomach, calf, thigh), add them up, divide by weight in lbs, then multiply 27 to that result. Is this method accurate? Is there any simpler and more reliable method? -- Josh

ALBOB

Ahh but you don't have to lose one just to gain the other, you can do both. I know exactly now you feel when it comes to wanting to use those BIG dumbells. So combine the two. When you first walk into the gym and are at your strongest go straight for the dumbell rack. Do two or three very light sets to get the muscles and joints good and warm then jump straight to your heaviest weight possible. I'm not mentally strong enough to do what Dorian Yates can do so I'll use that weight for two max sets. (As opposed to him just doing one.) After you get your power fix move to your isolation movement. (I prefer DB flyes.) Then your final exercise can be another compound movement. (I prefer to finish off with weighted dips.) With this routine you get the best of both worlds.

Chicken Daddy, I never really got whether you like or don't like pre-exhaust routines. Joe Weider aside, I think it's a very good principal. The theory is that you weaken the target muscle first (In this case the pectorals) with an isolation movement so that when you move to a compound movement it's the target muscle that fails before the supporting muscles (Triceps). The same with quads. I've done the pre-exhaust you mentioned, leg-extensions before squats. I've also done squats first. They both work in their own way, it's more a matter of what you're goal is.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Robboe

Right, so there is one positive for doing them.

But, what's to say that your chest (in this example) wouldn't get just the same stimulation in total from doing the flyes after the compound?

BTW i neither like them nor dislike them. I was just hoping to kick up a debate but no one seems to be biting the bait...

Being held down by The Man

ALBOB

You want a debate eh? I need to bring my upper pecs up to par with my lower pecs, what exercises should I do? Sorry, couldn't resist.

I see where you're coming from with your original question and I'm not sure there's a full answer other than speculation. So what the hell, I'll speculate for a second. If I walk into the gym and go straight to the DB rack. (This is theoretical so I'm not going to waste space talking about warm-ups.) I grab the heaviest DB's I'm able to lift 6-8 good reps. On the 8th rep, what gives out? THEORETICALLY it's your triceps. So, you've done one set which worked your triceps to 100% and your pecs to, let's say 80%. (Again, theoretical.) Now you move to DB flyes, or whatever your isolation movement of choice is. You now work your pecs to 100% failure and your triceps to 0%. With the pre-exhaust you start with the isolation movement and 100% pectoral and 0% triceps stimulation then move to your compound movement where you can get 100% pectoral and 80% triceps stimulation. If the target muscle for that day is pectorals this THEORY seems better to me.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Robboe

Well if we're going theoretical then we can say from your description that both cases caused the same amount of stimulation, only in the pre-exhaust method your bench strength isn't as good as it could have been and progression may be blunted so what (not necessarily true though.)

Being held down by The Man

ALBOB

Hmmmm...........we're using different math here. On the pre-exhaust I see two exercises aimed at pectoral stimulation, both of which are providing 100% of that stimulation. Without pre-exhaust you have the same two exercises, one of which is providing 100% stimulation but the other is only providing 80%. You're losing 20% of your potential target stimulation. As far as your bench strength being lowered by using the pre-exhaust I agree, the amount of weight you can use effectively will be lowered but the amount of muscle stimulation will actually be increased by said 20%.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Robboe

Ah i see, I misread. My fault.

Valid point too, although quite theoretical, as you mentioned (several times haha )

I suppose as long as you can gauge progression in some way or other then you'll be good to go. But pre-exhaust seems to play around with progression too much. This happend lots when i used to do ext. before squats.

Being held down by The Man

ALBOB

Exactly the same with me. I love using a pre-exhaust for chest but the only time I use it for legs is when I hit a plateau of some sort. Once, MAYBE twice, and then it's back to good old fasioned ass-to-the-floor squats before extensions. Wanna debate the pros and cons of going ATF on squats?

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Robboe

I can't go "officially" ATF cause of the length on my thighs compared to the rest of my body. The mecanics just aren't there. I just go as low as possible. I wish i could though. I go ATF on front squats and the hack machine though. tres bien.

Being held down by The Man

ALBOB

Well damn, what are we gonna debate about then.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Josh

Very interesting to read all about the pre-exhaust method, but please clarify the connection with my chest problem, which is the topic of this thread. Are you suggesting me to do this pre-exhaust method, that this method will improve my chest more quickly? How does this relate to the my fat level? -- Josh

ALBOB

I don't really address fat in the training forum because that's more a function of your diet. As far as the pre-exhaust being good for your chest, it sure is good for MY chest. Give it a try for a month or so and see how it works for you.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Josh

Thanks Albob, I'll try pre-exhaust method and see how it goes. In the mean time, if you have any advise about my fat, please follow my thread on the diet forum. Thx. -- Josh

ksiebert

Try the power matrix. Find out your max bench, and then do the workout with your max at the top of it. Once you can get through that workout without your spotter touching the bar during any of the sets, you can move up to the next square. Then....... you do that workout until you can do it without help. It seriously works!. Let me know if the file didn't upload..

Josh

Thx for your advise, the file is okay. But....I'm not sure how to use this system, or how to interpret or use the info in the file. Can you help please? Thx. -- Josh

ksiebert

The important thing is to find out what your max is for flat bench. Whatever it is, you use it to determine where you start on the matrix. The original power matrix can work for anybody from a max of 90lbs up to a max of like 500lbs. I just copied this starting from a max of 240.

You take your max, and then use the square with your max at the top of it. Each square has a range, and your max will be in the range of the square you start with. You can use the workout on monday and then again on friday. On monday, use the power matrix, and then do some incline fly and pec deck. On friday, just focus on using the matrix by it self and give yourself the weekend to rest. It works! If you need the lower parts of the matrix, let me know and I can type it up!

Josh

Thanks for your reply.

1. My max now is only 40 kgs (88 lbs?) -- very light, huh? So I guess I need the lower parts of the matrix. Could you please send it? Thx.

2. I understand now that the bolded range on top a square is the max weight range. How about the 7 lines following it, in forms of x-yyy? Is x the reps with yyy lbs of weight? Does this mean on each square (training day) I need to do 7 sets?

-- Josh

ksiebert

Exactly!

I'll work on getting you the rest of the squared

Josh

Thx a lot, I really appreciate your help. I'll try this matrix method after I finish my current routines. -- Josh

BabyArnold

Get rid of the flat bench and flat bench fly's. If you want growth focus all of you energy on Incline Bench, and Incline Fly's. Flat bench tends to work only the lower part of the Pecs, trcieps, and front delts. Try this and tell me what happens! On chest day, go in and do 5 sets of 15,12,10,8, and 6. Make sure that you bring the bar down just under your collarbones and forci back out over your chest. in the up position the bar should be directly above your nipples. At first this feels awkward trying to push it from your collarbones out above your chest, but this is the correct method to properly put the strain on all of the muscles of the upper chest region. Make sure to do weight that you can control. This is where people mess up. You have to concentrate on flexing the muscle as you press the weight. Then do flys with the same sets and reps on the incline bench. I usually include flat bench at the end of my chest routine, just for a complete blowout. This works. Trust me. Try it for two weeks and tell me your results. Also add dips to your work out at the very end to blow out your chest and triceps..

wheete

The easiest part for me is chest. In fact I a toning down my chest exercises right now because I am growing too much on the chest compared to the rest of me. The key for me has been dumbbells without any doubt, I have not used barbells for my chest for a very long time.
1. Try incline dumbbel flyes and go for a strict form, full range of motion, get the weight almost down under your torso, stretching your growing chest to the maximum!
2. Flat bench dumbbell press, keep a natural arch of your back and pin your shoulder blades to the bench to reduce delt involvement. This is much better exercise for the chest than barbell bench press since you can get the weights much further down and get a full range of motion for the chest.
3. Stand/laying cable flyes are great for your chest killer exercise.

Just my 2 cents and this has worked great for me.

Lightman009

Hey Josh, what supplements do you use?

Just Shut Up and LIFT.

Josh

Thanks for more advises. Now I have a number of ways to try to improve my chest.

Lightman, I ám not taking any supplements except for vitamins (C, multivits, calcium -- daily). What do you suggest?

-- Josh

pumpit

Creatine if you haven't try it yet it's pretty damn good!

The harder you try the tougher you will be!

Josh

Pumpit, what does Creatine do? How would this help my chest? And how to take it (before/after exercise, in the morning, or when?)? -- Josh