Nutrition Rules, Cardio Drools

Dr. Pain · 05-01-2002, 05:40 PM

A study completed at Appalachian State University showed little effect on body composition over a 12-week period.

Aerobic exercise has a small effect on the rate of fat loss
The research team assigned a group of 91 obese women to one of four groups. Group one followed a restricted calorie diet (1,200 - 1,300 calories per day), group two performed moderate aerobic exercise for 45 minutes, five days each week, while a third group combined the exercise and diet programme. The fourth group acted as controls.

TABLE 2. Fat loss following a 12-week programme of diet and exercise

Method Weight Loss
Aerobic exercise - 1kg (3lb)
Restricted calorie diet - 7kg (15lb)
Exercise & diet - 7kg (16lb)

"Moderate exercise training", says Alan Utter, the researcher leading the study, "…has a minor, nonsignificant effect on fat
mass".

I love it, a whopping 23 people per group, but I do basically agree with their findings.

They did at one point suggest that only HIIT type cardio had any long lasting effect on metabolism!

I keep telling people that traditional cardio first depletes your glycogen stores (precious glycogen for lifting), next catabolizies LBM (and every pound of LBM lost could have burned 30-50 more calories a day, potentially fat calories), and by the time that you finally get to the FFA's, the session is over! (exception being, cardio first thing in the morning)

I know three of the same women, they have done 1 to 1 and 1/2 hours of cardio a day for years! Same weight, same fat, no results from their W/O's!

I have done cardio, once, maybe twice this year! (I can also tell you that I am in decent cardiovascular shape. Can you say "SUPERSET"!)

NUTRITION RULES, CARDIO DROOLS!!

DP

w8lifter · 05-01-2002, 05:44 PM

This is too funny...classic Pain

One of DP's responses to a girl who's stuck on doing too much cardio.....lol:

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. of Pain

I think it's too much from both of you! Everyone knows my opinion, how about you ask yourself instead of others Leanne!
Leanne to self: "Self, I do a lot of cardio now, it doesn't seem to be working!"

Self back: "But if we don't do cardio, we'll get fatter and out of shape!"

Leanne: " But Dr. Pain says it's creating the wrong hormones, giving my body the message to be small by losing LBM and burning precious glycogen!"

Self: "What does he know, we have been doing this forever, EVEN THOUGH IT"S NOT WORKING!"

Leanne:" But what if I'm burning muscle and then having to make you work all day just to replace it and replace tha precious glycogen that we could have put into lifting. Dr Pain says that every pound of LBM burns 30-50 more calories a day, potentially fat calories!"

Self "Well maybe, but look at Krypto, she does a lot of cardio, even though Dr. Pain noticed that it wasn't working for her either!"

Leanne: "Maybe we've been going about this wrong, secreting the wrong hormones, losing muscle not fat, out of energy all the time. Maybe your shutting down my metabloism because we have been in diet mode for so long.

But, you know, I'm a woman, women do cardio, that's how we control our BW. Can't stop or slow down or we will get out of shape and blow up like a balloon. It's about weight isn't it?"

Dr. Pain: "No it's about body composition! If you lose 5 pounds of fat, and replace it wuth 5 pounds of LBM from lifting, the scale will not change, BUT YOU WILL!"

DP

nikegurl · 05-01-2002, 06:02 PM

ummm.....ok. here's my deal. i don't do it. none. i hate it. (but that's besides the point) about 3 weeks ago i decided i must do 20-30 minutes 3-4 times a week.

i stick to this diet perfectly. but not to my cardio vow. lasted one week (sorry dvlmn666). i will play tennis or hike now and then (that means like once a week lol).

i get the point not to do 2 sessions a day for hours...but am i the lamest person in the world to say i'm cutting and do none? probably. at least i haven't cheated on the diet. not once....(that means don't yell TOO much) lol

dvlmn666 · 05-01-2002, 06:13 PM

I agree with dp. but maybe it's just me. But wouldn't a good nutrition and weight program with some cardio help attain the goal faster, and then you could maintain that look/condition with proper nutrition and diet and weight training?

N-G hey at least you lasted a week, I've been slacking the last 2 weeks. Gotta get myself back into it again.

nikegurl · 05-01-2002, 06:26 PM

but at least you say you gotta get back into it again....

i don't even want to go that far. i have a feeling dp will tell me i should do at least some and then i will but i'll still hate it. sigh

nikegurl · 05-01-2002, 06:27 PM

takes time away from food/veggie preparation

w8lifter · 05-01-2002, 07:08 PM

Um...NG...DP isn't gonna tell you to do cardio, lol.

nikegurl · 05-01-2002, 07:18 PM

REALLY????? none ever at all?

life is good even without pasta

w8lifter · 05-01-2002, 07:34 PM

OMG...you're so funny gurl, lol

Cardio may be needed near the end of a cut to drop the last bit of fat, but other than that....you're free and clear

ActionMatt · 05-01-2002, 08:53 PM

Endurance cardio isn't the best for fat loss; that much I agree with.

But short periods (I'm talking 20, 30 minutes MAX) can be beneficial. Consider:

1) Aerobic work can increase capillarization in the involved muscle groups. More blood isn't a bad thing.
2) On the same note, it will also increase the amount of energy substrates stored in the cell, again not a bad thing.
3) Endurance work can also increase the size of the mitochondria
4) A stronger heart and lungs are never a bad thing.

1-3 are the "standard" adaptations to aerobic/endurance training. When taken to extremes, these factors (esp. 2 and 3) can interfere with and even reverse the positive effects of weight training. Number 4 can probably be better accomplished with HIIT and weight training with short rest intervals.

Even so, I feel that those four points provide reason enough to perform at least slight amounts of cardiovascular training, even if its 15 minutes once a week.

**Jodi** · 05-02-2002, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by w8lifter

Cardio may be needed near the end of a cut to drop the last bit of fat, but other than that....you're free and clear

SWEET! No Cardio! I only do it 1 or 2 times a week for 20 mins anyway but if I don't have to do it at all.

So bascially the more cardio I do the more muscle I am burning? Can't have that.

ZONE · 05-02-2002, 08:03 AM

I agree totally.. just from watching my wife.. she does like 1-2 hours 3-4 days per week on the old tread mill.. and looks the same as she did 2-3 years ago... she won't do weights.. thinks she'll get to bulky... No matter what I say.... she'll ask what she should do "lifting wise".. I'll tell her... but she never does it...

What to do???

**Jodi** · 05-02-2002, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZONE
I agree totally.. just from watching my wife.. she does like 1-2 hours 3-4 days per week on the old tread mill.. and looks the same as she did 2-3 years ago... she won't do weights.. thinks she'll get to bulky... No matter what I say.... she'll ask what she should do "lifting wise".. I'll tell her... but she never does it...

What to do???

Its my understanding that women can't get bulky because we don't have the testoterone to do so. Eating habits can affect that though.

I use to think the same thing and I was told to Lift Heavy and not to worry because I won't bulk. And you know what its true. I lift heavy all the time and I am not bulky. Show her some of the female member pics. All the women here lift heavy and I wouldn't call any of them bulky.

ZONE · 05-02-2002, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mochy

Its my understanding that women can't get bulky because we don't have the testoterone to do so. Eating habits can affect that though.

I use to think the same thing and I was told to Lift Heavy and not to worry because I won't bulk. And you know what its true. I lift heavy all the time and I am not bulky. Show her some of the female member pics. All the women here lift heavy and I wouldn't call any of them bulky.

Thanks I will.. she thinks her legs will look like DP's..... what I try to tell her is that he may gain a little muscle butover all she'll look thinner and more shapely because the muscle and effort to get it will burn away the fat....

Rob_NC · 05-02-2002, 08:57 AM

Finally, fuel for the fire. I've been telling my wife for months that all the kickboxing she does isn't going to amount to a hill of beans, except maybe she can use some moves to kick my ass. I finally got her to start strength training 2 days per week. She still does the KB thing 3 days per week. Now she's complaining about being tired all the time. I tell her she's doing to much, take a break. She can't understand why I can drop 7 pounds in a month and she gains like crazy. I tell her, "change your diet and eat less". She says "easy for you to say". She thinks the protein shakes I make for her are making her fat, so she quit taking them. What's a guy to do? I've been printing these topics like crazy so she can read and reread them. Nothing is sinking in. She's expecting miracles with little effort involved. I said there isn't such a thing. HELP!!!

w8lifter · 05-02-2002, 09:07 AM

Keep in mind.....NUTRITION RULES, CARDIO DROOLS....you must have a sound nutritional plan in place!

*sigh*....women frustrate me sometimes, lol....I feel your Pain guys!

Robboe · 05-02-2002, 09:32 AM

DP: how about HIIT first thing in the morning on an empty stomach while on a carb controlled diet - ie you're a "fat burner"?

chances are that unless you're carbed up the night before that glycogen stores will be around about or below the 70 mol/kg level where fat burning becomes "optimal". (it's somewhere around that figure but it prolly differs between individuals.) Thus, morning HIIT wouldn't be too bad, not to mention the positive effects stated by Matt.

ActionMatt · 05-02-2002, 10:32 AM

One problem I see with doing HIIT with low glycogen levels is that HIIT is *fueled* by glycogen-- Once you get around that little roadblock, its all good.

nikegurl · 05-02-2002, 10:33 AM

i have a friend (female) who was about 30-40 lbs overweight 3 years ago. she cut back calories and started walking. then she started walking longer and faster. then it became a jog. now she's doing about 6 miles a day at a 10 min. per mile pace. a great improvement! but wait....i love her dearly BUT i have to say. she has lost weight. she's wearing small sizes and lost 40 lbs. however the way she eats is so terrible. she uses all the running so she can eat crap and not gain weight. by crap i mean the huge bag of skittles every day. what else....baked lays by the bags (big bags) and fat free cookies/cake etc. (loaded with sugar).

she's thinner for sure b/c she doesn't bother with "real" food so even with the crap she isn't taking in too many calories and she's burning plenty with all her running.

but here's the kicker....she's lost the weight but she is very very soft. she runs miles every single day but her nutrition is so bad - it does show. she's smaller but far from lean and her hair and skin are paying the price.

she won't even consider lifting. convinced it will add bulk no matter what i say. i especially tried to tell her she'd burn more calories doing nothing at all if she had more muscle on her body....she's not having it.

Dr. Pain · 05-02-2002, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
DP: how about HIIT first thing in the morning on an empty stomach while on a carb controlled diet - ie you're a "fat burner"?

chances are that unless you're carbed up the night before that glycogen stores will be around about or below the 70 mol/kg level where fat burning becomes "optimal". (it's somewhere around that figure but it prolly differs between individuals.) Thus, morning HIIT wouldn't be too bad, not to mention the positive effects stated by Matt.

TCD, you came from a GOOD egg!

See my other recents posts on Cardio, especially, "Closet Cardio!"

Thanks!

DP

Robboe · 05-02-2002, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ActionMatt
One problem I see with doing HIIT with low glycogen levels is that HIIT is *fueled* by glycogen-- Once you get around that little roadblock, its all good.

So Matt, how do you propose we get around that?

DP, i will man, but they looked like a long read and i'm lazy. lol.

Star_Scream · 05-03-2002, 01:01 AM

I like cardio. But I'm not really a body builder.

Dr. Pain · 12-16-2002, 06:40 AM

Looking for something else....just an oldie

DP

Bear · 12-24-2002, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
Looking for something else....just an oldie

DP

An oldie, but a goodie

crackerjack414 · 12-29-2002, 09:49 PM

yes I agrea that diet is the most important thing when cutting, When competing it seems there is a slight differnce in the bodys of athletes, at least thats what I have noticed.

Claudette · 01-22-2003, 12:55 PM

Is HIIT high intensity interval training?
I absolutely HATE doing cardio and I don't HATE anything--well, mabye eggplant, but other than that I only HATE cardio. I have been trying to do cardio lately just because I've had more "time" but I find that I hate it even more and it makes me hate working out. So I've decided to do my 20 min warm up (a fast hard-core session on the elliptical) and proceed to my weights. I gained 10 pounds this last semester and I'm officially in my fat clothes. So obviously I thought cardio was the way to go. I'm just like all those food junkies out there that know that nutrition is the most important thing but I've never been able to get it right so I compensate by spending more time at the gym doing cardio until I pull my hair out and obviously this can't go on.

05-01-2002, 05:40 PM	#1
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	Nutrition Rules, Cardio Drools A study completed at Appalachian State University showed little effect on body composition over a 12-week period. Aerobic exercise has a small effect on the rate of fat loss The research team assigned a group of 91 obese women to one of four groups. Group one followed a restricted calorie diet (1,200 - 1,300 calories per day), group two performed moderate aerobic exercise for 45 minutes, five days each week, while a third group combined the exercise and diet programme. The fourth group acted as controls. TABLE 2. Fat loss following a 12-week programme of diet and exercise Method Weight Loss Aerobic exercise - 1kg (3lb) Restricted calorie diet - 7kg (15lb) Exercise & diet - 7kg (16lb) "Moderate exercise training", says Alan Utter, the researcher leading the study, "…has a minor, nonsignificant effect on fat mass". I love it, a whopping 23 people per group, but I do basically agree with their findings. They did at one point suggest that only HIIT type cardio had any long lasting effect on metabolism! I keep telling people that traditional cardio first depletes your glycogen stores (precious glycogen for lifting), next catabolizies LBM (and every pound of LBM lost could have burned 30-50 more calories a day, potentially fat calories), and by the time that you finally get to the FFA's, the session is over! (exception being, cardio first thing in the morning) I know three of the same women, they have done 1 to 1 and 1/2 hours of cardio a day for years! Same weight, same fat, no results from their W/O's! I have done cardio, once, maybe twice this year! (I can also tell you that I am in decent cardiovascular shape. Can you say "SUPERSET"!) NUTRITION RULES, CARDIO DROOLS!! DP

05-01-2002, 06:02 PM	#3
nikegurl Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 5,635	ummm.....ok. here's my deal. i don't do it. none. i hate it. (but that's besides the point) about 3 weeks ago i decided i must do 20-30 minutes 3-4 times a week. i stick to this diet perfectly. but not to my cardio vow. lasted one week (sorry dvlmn666). i will play tennis or hike now and then (that means like once a week lol). i get the point not to do 2 sessions a day for hours...but am i the lamest person in the world to say i'm cutting and do none? probably. at least i haven't cheated on the diet. not once....(that means don't yell TOO much) lol
	If you want to achieve things that others can't... You have to do things that others won't.

05-01-2002, 06:13 PM	#4
dvlmn666 Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 3,233	I agree with dp. but maybe it's just me. But wouldn't a good nutrition and weight program with some cardio help attain the goal faster, and then you could maintain that look/condition with proper nutrition and diet and weight training? N-G hey at least you lasted a week, I've been slacking the last 2 weeks. Gotta get myself back into it again.
	"When I use the word intensity I mean the ability to continue past and through the pain barrier where your mind pleads to stop and in fact convinces your body that you have hit failure, but you push through. How far you push through that barrier is the level of intensity with which you train." -- Twin Peak

05-01-2002, 06:26 PM	#5
nikegurl Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 5,635	but at least you say you gotta get back into it again.... i don't even want to go that far. i have a feeling dp will tell me i should do at least some and then i will but i'll still hate it. sigh
	If you want to achieve things that others can't... You have to do things that others won't.

05-01-2002, 06:27 PM	#6
nikegurl Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 5,635	takes time away from food/veggie preparation
	If you want to achieve things that others can't... You have to do things that others won't.

05-01-2002, 07:08 PM	#7
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	Um...NG...DP isn't gonna tell you to do cardio, lol.

05-01-2002, 07:18 PM	#8
nikegurl Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 5,635	REALLY????? none ever at all? life is good even without pasta
	If you want to achieve things that others can't... You have to do things that others won't.

05-01-2002, 07:34 PM	#9
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	OMG...you're so funny gurl, lol Cardio may be needed near the end of a cut to drop the last bit of fat, but other than that....you're free and clear

05-01-2002, 08:53 PM	#10
ActionMatt Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Here Posts: 127	Endurance cardio isn't the best for fat loss; that much I agree with. But short periods (I'm talking 20, 30 minutes MAX) can be beneficial. Consider: 1) Aerobic work can increase capillarization in the involved muscle groups. More blood isn't a bad thing. 2) On the same note, it will also increase the amount of energy substrates stored in the cell, again not a bad thing. 3) Endurance work can also increase the size of the mitochondria 4) A stronger heart and lungs are never a bad thing. 1-3 are the "standard" adaptations to aerobic/endurance training. When taken to extremes, these factors (esp. 2 and 3) can interfere with and even reverse the positive effects of weight training. Number 4 can probably be better accomplished with HIIT and weight training with short rest intervals. Even so, I feel that those four points provide reason enough to perform at least slight amounts of cardiovascular training, even if its 15 minutes once a week.

05-02-2002, 08:03 AM	#12
ZONE Registered User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Bristow, VA, USA Posts: 184	I agree totally.. just from watching my wife.. she does like 1-2 hours 3-4 days per week on the old tread mill.. and looks the same as she did 2-3 years ago... she won't do weights.. thinks she'll get to bulky... No matter what I say.... she'll ask what she should do "lifting wise".. I'll tell her... but she never does it... What to do???
	Thoughts are more powerful then Matter

05-02-2002, 08:57 AM	#15
Rob_NC Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 1,179	Finally, fuel for the fire. I've been telling my wife for months that all the kickboxing she does isn't going to amount to a hill of beans, except maybe she can use some moves to kick my ass. I finally got her to start strength training 2 days per week. She still does the KB thing 3 days per week. Now she's complaining about being tired all the time. I tell her she's doing to much, take a break. She can't understand why I can drop 7 pounds in a month and she gains like crazy. I tell her, "change your diet and eat less". She says "easy for you to say". She thinks the protein shakes I make for her are making her fat, so she quit taking them. What's a guy to do? I've been printing these topics like crazy so she can read and reread them. Nothing is sinking in. She's expecting miracles with little effort involved. I said there isn't such a thing. HELP!!!
	Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.

05-02-2002, 09:07 AM	#16
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	Keep in mind.....NUTRITION RULES, CARDIO DROOLS....you must have a sound nutritional plan in place! sigh....women frustrate me sometimes, lol....I feel your Pain guys!

05-02-2002, 09:32 AM	#17
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	DP: how about HIIT first thing in the morning on an empty stomach while on a carb controlled diet - ie you're a "fat burner"? chances are that unless you're carbed up the night before that glycogen stores will be around about or below the 70 mol/kg level where fat burning becomes "optimal". (it's somewhere around that figure but it prolly differs between individuals.) Thus, morning HIIT wouldn't be too bad, not to mention the positive effects stated by Matt.
	Being held down by The Man

05-02-2002, 10:32 AM	#18
ActionMatt Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Here Posts: 127	One problem I see with doing HIIT with low glycogen levels is that HIIT is fueled by glycogen-- Once you get around that little roadblock, its all good.

05-02-2002, 10:33 AM	#19
nikegurl Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 5,635	i have a friend (female) who was about 30-40 lbs overweight 3 years ago. she cut back calories and started walking. then she started walking longer and faster. then it became a jog. now she's doing about 6 miles a day at a 10 min. per mile pace. a great improvement! but wait....i love her dearly BUT i have to say. she has lost weight. she's wearing small sizes and lost 40 lbs. however the way she eats is so terrible. she uses all the running so she can eat crap and not gain weight. by crap i mean the huge bag of skittles every day. what else....baked lays by the bags (big bags) and fat free cookies/cake etc. (loaded with sugar). she's thinner for sure b/c she doesn't bother with "real" food so even with the crap she isn't taking in too many calories and she's burning plenty with all her running. but here's the kicker....she's lost the weight but she is very very soft. she runs miles every single day but her nutrition is so bad - it does show. she's smaller but far from lean and her hair and skin are paying the price. she won't even consider lifting. convinced it will add bulk no matter what i say. i especially tried to tell her she'd burn more calories doing nothing at all if she had more muscle on her body....she's not having it.
	If you want to achieve things that others can't... You have to do things that others won't.

05-03-2002, 01:01 AM	#22
Star_Scream Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 44	I like cardio. But I'm not really a body builder.

12-16-2002, 06:40 AM	#23
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	Looking for something else....just an oldie DP

12-29-2002, 09:49 PM	#25
crackerjack414 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: cali Posts: 644	yes I agrea that diet is the most important thing when cutting, When competing it seems there is a slight differnce in the bodys of athletes, at least thats what I have noticed.

01-22-2003, 12:55 PM	#26
Claudette Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 128	Is HIIT high intensity interval training? I absolutely HATE doing cardio and I don't HATE anything--well, mabye eggplant, but other than that I only HATE cardio. I have been trying to do cardio lately just because I've had more "time" but I find that I hate it even more and it makes me hate working out. So I've decided to do my 20 min warm up (a fast hard-core session on the elliptical) and proceed to my weights. I gained 10 pounds this last semester and I'm officially in my fat clothes. So obviously I thought cardio was the way to go. I'm just like all those food junkies out there that know that nutrition is the most important thing but I've never been able to get it right so I compensate by spending more time at the gym doing cardio until I pull my hair out and obviously this can't go on.

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