For the IM experts and vets.

camarosuper6 · 06-20-2006, 03:14 PM

Not a question for the newbs.

Im merely curious.

What has brought you to conclude that hypertrophy (not strength) is best acheived by using repetition ranges of 6-12, or in that region.

And what are you feelings on intensity playing a role in hypertrophy (aka Arthur Jones)

**Dale Mabry** · 06-20-2006, 03:29 PM

Intensity is based on repetition or vice versa, it is just semantics. Obviously TUT, muscle action, RI, etc all play a role as well.

MyK · 06-20-2006, 03:45 PM

because p-funk said so!

PWGriffin · 06-20-2006, 03:48 PM

To the first question...I read material that supported that first...then was convinced it was true based on my own experiences....for example...I deadlifted 405 4 times last week, no soreness, no nothing....yesterday, deadlifted 225 for 10, then 315 for 2 sets of 8-10 reps...today, my traps are sore, lowerback and glutes are also sore....

TJ Cline · 06-20-2006, 03:49 PM

Just by experimentation, did the 3-6 rep thing and it worked ok but caused injuries. Did the 15+ rep thing and made ok gains but seemed to not build as much size. 8-12 seems best to me.

fantasma62 · 06-20-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarosuper6

Not a question for the newbs.

Im merely curious.

What has brought you to conclude that hypertrophy (not strength) is best acheived by using repetition ranges of 6-12, or in that region.

And what are you feelings on intensity playing a role in hypertrophy (aka Arthur Jones)

This is a great question. I grew up thinking that 4 sets of increasing weights and decreasing reps was the way to go. In fact, I lifted that way for 10 years. The funny thing is that it took an injury a couple of years ago to get me to look at HIT.
I read Dr. Darden's books and still didn't really completely bought into it until I started applying the concepts I read there. One of the main things that I learned in my own workouts was that in my last 3 reps I reached muscular exhaustment, which I believe that is the key to HIT. I have no scientific proof of this. Everyone's body is different, however, my body failed at rep number 8-11, because sometimes I just couldn't do 12. I guess I never really did less than 8 reps, therefore my range was, and will be again 8-12.
Another important phase of this training is recovery. Is there growth during recovery? Could this also play part in Hypertrophy?

camarosuper6 · 06-20-2006, 04:43 PM

I like both full body and split routines.

I go back and forth with them..

I also never train higher than 10 reps for anything, unless by mistake of course (misjudging weight).

Maybe working out in a 12-15 rep range would spark new growth?

**Dale Mabry** · 06-20-2006, 04:53 PM

Change is good, could prime you for more growth me thinks.

**P-funk** · 06-20-2006, 06:50 PM

most studies on hypertrophy specific training have come to the conclusion that 6-12 reps is best for hypertrophy. at least the studies that are referenced in the glut of exercise physiology books.

IMO I think 12 reps is to much. After about 80% you start to recruit all your motor units...so, I would say something like 5-8 reps seems to be best for hyerptrophy. lower then 5 reps you start to get into limit strength which is fine if you are into it but it isn't neccesary for everyone. I think 5-8 reps is a good range with the occasional swing into higher reps after a few weeks of grinding it out.

if you are always banging it out at higher intensites then droping back to 12-15 reps for 2-3 weeks wil be a nice break and change of pace for your body.

**gopro** · 06-20-2006, 07:40 PM

Hypertrophy is best achieved when a TUT of 40-70 seconds is utilized. I base this on some studies, but more so on personal experience of training myself and 100's of other over the years.

Most people perform reps too fast in my opinion, especially the eccentric portion, thus 6 reps is often not enough to maximally spur on growth. With a cadence of 2/0/1, that would give a TUT of only 18 seconds. Of course, performing repetitions too slowly can be boring and monotonous, so I feel each rep should take about 5 seconds (generally) with most standard training programs. This means about 8-12 reps would get the job done.

**P-funk** · 06-20-2006, 07:57 PM

TUT does not have to apply to the one set. TUT can be applied total time under tension of a group of sets. LIke say 5sets x 5 reps = 25 total reps. 2 sec per rep (1sec down, 1sec up) is equal to 50sec total TUT for the give muscles being worked.

TJ Cline · 06-20-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Hypertrophy is best achieved when a TUT of 40-70 seconds is utilized. I base this on some studies, but more so on personal experience of training myself and 100's of other over the years.

Most people perform reps too fast in my opinion, especially the eccentric portion, thus 6 reps is often not enough to maximally spur on growth. With a cadence of 2/0/1, that would give a TUT of only 18 seconds. Of course, performing repetitions too slowly can be boring and monotonous, so I feel each rep should take about 5 seconds (generally) with most standard training programs. This means about 8-12 reps would get the job done.

After 40 seconds your body changes from anaerobic to aerobic....don't know how or why that would matter when lifting exactly.

maniclion · 06-20-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Most people perform reps too fast in my opinion, especially the eccentric portion, thus 6 reps is often not enough to maximally spur on growth. With a cadence of 2/0/1, that would give a TUT of only 18 seconds. Of course, performing repetitions too slowly can be boring and monotonous, so I feel each rep should take about 5 seconds (generally) with most standard training programs. This means about 8-12 reps would get the job done.

And thats with your body, I gained best with a tempo of 6-0-2 each time I tried the OVT program. So as we all know you have to dial in your own bodies best performance settings, and just like a racecar you have to change variables based on new stresses be it change in diet, sleep, injury, etc.

**CowPimp** · 06-20-2006, 10:39 PM

I primarily say it because study after study supports this conclusion/

Of course, I have also read that after a certain level of training experience that the minimal theshold necessary to stimulate hypertrophy becomes greater. One book (I believe it was Serious Strength training by Tudor Bompa, but not 100% sure on that) stated that 70% of your 1RM is the minimum you should use as an intermediate to advanced trainee if you want hypertrophy, which equates to approximately your 10RM.

Empirical evidence also seems to support this. I have noticed plenty of gains mass wise using everything between my 5-10RM. I never did much higher repetition training in the past, though I'm starting to understand the value of doing so with respect to managing systemic fatigue and joint wear. Countless trainers have the empirical evidence to support utilizing this bracket as well. If I had been training longer then I would vouch for it more, but I can say that 8-12 repetitions has worked well in terms of recompositioning some of them. I don't tend to go much lower than that unless people have more aggressive goals.

**gopro** · 06-20-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

TUT does not have to apply to the one set. TUT can be applied total time under tension of a group of sets. LIke say 5sets x 5 reps = 25 total reps. 2 sec per rep (1sec down, 1sec up) is equal to 50sec total TUT for the give muscles being worked.

I don't believe this. You are not going to get as much growth from 25 sets lasting 10 seconds long as you would from 5 sets lasting 50 seconds each.

**gopro** · 06-20-2006, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maniclion

And thats with your body, I gained best with a tempo of 6-0-2 each time I tried the OVT program. So as we all know you have to dial in your own bodies best performance settings, and just like a racecar you have to change variables based on new stresses be it change in diet, sleep, injury, etc.

If you read my statement you would see that I mentioned it was with 100's of bodies, not just my own.

And with that 6/0/2 tempo, how many reps did you generally get?

**gopro** · 06-20-2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I primarily say it because study after study supports this conclusion/

Of course, I have also read that after a certain level of training experience that the minimal theshold necessary to stimulate hypertrophy becomes greater. One book (I believe it was Serious Strength training by Tudor Bompa, but not 100% sure on that) stated that 70% of your 1RM is the minimum you should use as an intermediate to advanced trainee if you want hypertrophy, which equates to approximately your 10RM.

I also believe that in general, the longer you have been training the less TUT you need for optimal growth.

maniclion · 06-22-2006, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

If you read my statement you would see that I mentioned it was with 100's of bodies, not just my own.

And with that 6/0/2 tempo, how many reps did you generally get?

5 if I gauged the weight right, 7 if I was too light. I am a firm believer in constant change though so I really don't think their is an optimum rep range, number of sets, tempo I think you should always vary every thing every time you get in the gym.

**gopro** · 06-22-2006, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maniclion

5 if I gauged the weight right, 7 if I was too light. I am a firm believer in constant change though so I really don't think their is an optimum rep range, number of sets, tempo I think you should always vary every thing every time you get in the gym.

Well, change aside (which you know I support if you have read about P/RR/S training), if you did 5-7 reps in a 6/0/2 tempo, than TUT for each set would be 40-56 seconds, which falls right into my recommendations.

BulkMeUp · 06-25-2006, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Hypertrophy is best achieved when a TUT of 40-70 seconds is utilized. I base this on some studies, but more so on personal experience of training myself and 100's of other over the years.

Do you look at a different range for different BP's (by varying the TUT)? Say, Quads, Chest and Back VS Bis, Tris & Shoulders. In other words, do you aim for 40-70 secs for all BP's or is there a variation?

**gopro** · 06-26-2006, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

Do you look at a different range for different BP's (by varying the TUT)? Say, Quads, Chest and Back VS Bis, Tris & Shoulders. In other words, do you aim for 40-70 secs for all BP's or is there a variation?

I tend toward higher TUT's for lats, quads, and delts. Shorter TUT's for chest, hamstrings, and arms.

Obviously I have not taken muscle biopsies of everyone on the planet, but I tend to believe (as practical experience has shown me) that the lats/quads/delts have a higher concentration of intermediate and slow twitch fibers than the other groups I mentioned, and thus need a longer TUT to exhaust more motor unit pools.

06-20-2006, 03:14 PM	#1
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,350	For the IM experts and vets. Not a question for the newbs. Im merely curious. What has brought you to conclude that hypertrophy (not strength) is best acheived by using repetition ranges of 6-12, or in that region. And what are you feelings on intensity playing a role in hypertrophy (aka Arthur Jones)
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

06-20-2006, 03:29 PM	#2
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,873 Photos: 10	Intensity is based on repetition or vice versa, it is just semantics. Obviously TUT, muscle action, RI, etc all play a role as well.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

06-20-2006, 03:49 PM	#5
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544	Just by experimentation, did the 3-6 rep thing and it worked ok but caused injuries. Did the 15+ rep thing and made ok gains but seemed to not build as much size. 8-12 seems best to me.
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544

06-20-2006, 04:43 PM	#7
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,350	I like both full body and split routines. I go back and forth with them.. I also never train higher than 10 reps for anything, unless by mistake of course (misjudging weight). Maybe working out in a 12-15 rep range would spark new growth?
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

06-20-2006, 04:53 PM	#8
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,873 Photos: 10	Change is good, could prime you for more growth me thinks.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

06-20-2006, 03:45 PM	#3
MyK Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: consumerville! Posts: 10,201 Photos: 1	because p-funk said so!

06-20-2006, 06:50 PM	#9
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,574	most studies on hypertrophy specific training have come to the conclusion that 6-12 reps is best for hypertrophy. at least the studies that are referenced in the glut of exercise physiology books. IMO I think 12 reps is to much. After about 80% you start to recruit all your motor units...so, I would say something like 5-8 reps seems to be best for hyerptrophy. lower then 5 reps you start to get into limit strength which is fine if you are into it but it isn't neccesary for everyone. I think 5-8 reps is a good range with the occasional swing into higher reps after a few weeks of grinding it out. if you are always banging it out at higher intensites then droping back to 12-15 reps for 2-3 weeks wil be a nice break and change of pace for your body.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

06-20-2006, 07:40 PM	#10
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Florida Posts: 10,521	Hypertrophy is best achieved when a TUT of 40-70 seconds is utilized. I base this on some studies, but more so on personal experience of training myself and 100's of other over the years. Most people perform reps too fast in my opinion, especially the eccentric portion, thus 6 reps is often not enough to maximally spur on growth. With a cadence of 2/0/1, that would give a TUT of only 18 seconds. Of course, performing repetitions too slowly can be boring and monotonous, so I feel each rep should take about 5 seconds (generally) with most standard training programs. This means about 8-12 reps would get the job done.
	Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. GOLIATH LABS Sponsored Athlete/Board Rep www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

06-20-2006, 07:57 PM	#11
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,574	TUT does not have to apply to the one set. TUT can be applied total time under tension of a group of sets. LIke say 5sets x 5 reps = 25 total reps. 2 sec per rep (1sec down, 1sec up) is equal to 50sec total TUT for the give muscles being worked.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

06-20-2006, 10:39 PM	#14
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	I primarily say it because study after study supports this conclusion/ Of course, I have also read that after a certain level of training experience that the minimal theshold necessary to stimulate hypertrophy becomes greater. One book (I believe it was Serious Strength training by Tudor Bompa, but not 100% sure on that) stated that 70% of your 1RM is the minimum you should use as an intermediate to advanced trainee if you want hypertrophy, which equates to approximately your 10RM. Empirical evidence also seems to support this. I have noticed plenty of gains mass wise using everything between my 5-10RM. I never did much higher repetition training in the past, though I'm starting to understand the value of doing so with respect to managing systemic fatigue and joint wear. Countless trainers have the empirical evidence to support utilizing this bracket as well. If I had been training longer then I would vouch for it more, but I can say that 8-12 repetitions has worked well in terms of recompositioning some of them. I don't tend to go much lower than that unless people have more aggressive goals.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

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