Soreness

Josh · 05-04-2002, 07:06 AM

Hi all,

When I first started to lift weight, I read that one indicator of good workout (presumably such good workout will yield good results, ie muscle mass) is the feeling of soreness on the muscles already worked on. The reason is, overloading muscles with weight will break fibers in the muscles (?), which cause this soreness feeling. Breaking muscle fibers will lead to more fibers to be built as well as existing fibers to be strengthen, so that next time these muscles can withstand the same weight. That's why feeling muscle soreness is essential for successful weight training (if we want to increase muscle mass/size). In other words, we have to work on muscles until they sore, otherwise we are not breaking any fibers, meaning we are not building the muscles at all.

I've been going to gym working out with the above understanding, but problem is in my own experience there are muscles which are easily sored and others which are very difficult no matter what exercise I do on them. For instance, my biceps are easily sored as soon as I do many reps or use heavier weight, also my quads. But I've been doing bench presses and pulldowns and rows many many times without feeling any soreness on my chest and back muscles (well, maybe at first when I just started, but never again). I now wonder what have I done wrong? Are these exercises maybe for some reason not suitable for me? Or am I not using heavy enough weights (I doubt it though because I usually use weight for 6 to 1 reps)?

Also another question on muscle soreness, when and for how long should I feel such soreness? I usually do not feel any muscle soreness right after I do an exercise (only feeling muscle bigger), but I will feel soreness a day after the exercise, and it usually last only for 1 day (the second day after the exercise the soreness is usually already gone). Is this how it is supposed to be?

-- Josh

kuso · 05-04-2002, 07:27 AM

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...highlight=DOMS (Do i have to be sore to grow?)

Dude, here is one of many threads that may help you out

Scotty the Body · 05-04-2002, 10:51 AM

Yeah, check out that link from Kuso!!
You sound like a young guy so if your only sore for one day, thats probably normal, as you get older (like me or really old like Prince) the sorness will last for longer. Younger = faster recovery.

Josh · 05-04-2002, 04:51 PM

Thanks a lot for the thread. So muscle soreness is not an indicator of a good workout or sureness of growth afterall. I guess this also means my understanding of muscle fibers being broken up causing soreness is errorneous.

I'm 33 btw.

-- Josh

Scotty the Body · 05-04-2002, 05:01 PM

LOL, oppps sorry Josh

Robboe · 05-07-2002, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mathyus
and repair themselves accordingly by growing thicker, stronger, and in number. (As far as I know.)

Although they probably do, there is no "official" proof that hyperplasia occurs in humans. The tests have been done in cats that bench press and bird's wings.

Robboe · 05-07-2002, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mathyus
Total muscle adaptation will take place if you keep your program the same and in turn you will not produce any gains in muscle size or strength.

Bullshit.

**Prince** · 05-07-2002, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Josh
So muscle soreness is not an indicator of a good workout or sureness of growth afterall.

Yes and no. You can have a good/productive work-out and not be sore.

ActionMatt · 05-07-2002, 04:34 PM

So lets recap:

Train to be sore, train for a pump, and hit every possible angle.

Gotcha.

Josh · 05-07-2002, 07:14 PM

Ow wow, this is confusing. It seems that some of you say soreness is indeed an indicator of a good workout, while others say good workout does not necessarily produce soreness. Now I'm confused.............

What is a reliable sign that a particular exercise just done has been done effectively or not?

Uh...maybe I'll get conflicting answers to the above question as well huh?

-- Josh

ActionMatt · 05-07-2002, 08:47 PM

Just done? Well, if you only got 6 reps on it with good form, and it hurt like hell, you probably did it pretty effectively.

DOMS is prevalently believed to be caused by an inflammatory response to training-induced microtrauma to both the contractile apparatus and the sarcomere itself, not unlike inflammation of a cut on the skin. The immuno-histological response is very similar, involving specialized cells and biochemical agents that promote growth in the area. The pain is caused by stimulation of a particular class of nociceptors in the muscle complex.

This simply implies that damage is done. This does not *necessarily* imply that growth will be the result. You have to take into account the tension created (either by loading or speed), the duration wrt that tension, any eccentric actions present, your diet, etc etc etc.

So there's no clear-cut response to that question.

**gopro** · 05-08-2002, 09:23 AM

While I must agree with those who have said that "soreness" is not a definitive indicator of growth, I do feel that it is important to feel sore. If nothing else, the psychological boost one gets from being sore is motivating and positive...people usually feel "better" when they get sore from training. Also, you must do some "damage" to muscle in order for it to repair itself and then overcompensate by getting larger.

Basically, don't get upset if you are not sore ALL THE TIME...but if you never get sore, there is a good chance you are not training intensely enough.

**gopro** · 05-08-2002, 03:56 PM

I like this Mathyus guy

pumpit · 05-10-2002, 08:30 AM

CDWetzelberger · 05-10-2002, 11:06 AM

I have to agree with chicken daddy. You could do the same routine. Say Squat, Dip, Oh press, Pull down and a row. And Grow to pretty much your muscular potential with out ever changing that routine. Assuming 2 things. You continuing to progressively overload you muscles. More weight or more reps at the same weight. And that you get enough rest between work outs to recover from the previous work out.

**Prince** · 05-10-2002, 12:04 PM

Maybe you could, but it would sure get boring.

Robboe · 05-10-2002, 04:52 PM

Deleting posts won't do any good.
I only deleted the ones that had nothing to do with the thread.

**gopro** · 05-10-2002, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDWetzelberger
I have to agree with chicken daddy. You could do the same routine. Say Squat, Dip, Oh press, Pull down and a row. And Grow to pretty much your muscular potential with out ever changing that routine. Assuming 2 things. You continuing to progressively overload you muscles. More weight or more reps at the same weight. And that you get enough rest between work outs to recover from the previous work out.

No you could not! You could get appreciable development, but you will fall far from your "muscular potential."

LittLe FraNk · 05-11-2002, 12:19 PM

owww i lift till i get to that rep where my arms cant do it alone then i know i got dam good workout cause i couldnt do another rep then i rest for min or two and do as many more as i can and then again and again

Robboe · 05-11-2002, 05:25 PM

Scotty, there were posts relavent towards that Mathyus dude.

If there was anything remotely insulting in them you should have smimply edited those parts out.

05-04-2002, 07:06 AM	#1
Josh Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Indonesia Posts: 337	Soreness Hi all, When I first started to lift weight, I read that one indicator of good workout (presumably such good workout will yield good results, ie muscle mass) is the feeling of soreness on the muscles already worked on. The reason is, overloading muscles with weight will break fibers in the muscles (?), which cause this soreness feeling. Breaking muscle fibers will lead to more fibers to be built as well as existing fibers to be strengthen, so that next time these muscles can withstand the same weight. That's why feeling muscle soreness is essential for successful weight training (if we want to increase muscle mass/size). In other words, we have to work on muscles until they sore, otherwise we are not breaking any fibers, meaning we are not building the muscles at all. I've been going to gym working out with the above understanding, but problem is in my own experience there are muscles which are easily sored and others which are very difficult no matter what exercise I do on them. For instance, my biceps are easily sored as soon as I do many reps or use heavier weight, also my quads. But I've been doing bench presses and pulldowns and rows many many times without feeling any soreness on my chest and back muscles (well, maybe at first when I just started, but never again). I now wonder what have I done wrong? Are these exercises maybe for some reason not suitable for me? Or am I not using heavy enough weights (I doubt it though because I usually use weight for 6 to 1 reps)? Also another question on muscle soreness, when and for how long should I feel such soreness? I usually do not feel any muscle soreness right after I do an exercise (only feeling muscle bigger), but I will feel soreness a day after the exercise, and it usually last only for 1 day (the second day after the exercise the soreness is usually already gone). Is this how it is supposed to be? -- Josh

05-04-2002, 10:51 AM	#3
Scotty the Body I'm Dead Sexxxxy!! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 4,970	Yeah, check out that link from Kuso!! You sound like a young guy so if your only sore for one day, thats probably normal, as you get older (like me or really old like Prince) the sorness will last for longer. Younger = faster recovery.
	Cool

05-04-2002, 05:01 PM	#5
Scotty the Body I'm Dead Sexxxxy!! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 4,970	LOL, oppps sorry Josh
	Cool

05-08-2002, 09:23 AM	#12
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Florida Posts: 10,499	While I must agree with those who have said that "soreness" is not a definitive indicator of growth, I do feel that it is important to feel sore. If nothing else, the psychological boost one gets from being sore is motivating and positive...people usually feel "better" when they get sore from training. Also, you must do some "damage" to muscle in order for it to repair itself and then overcompensate by getting larger. Basically, don't get upset if you are not sore ALL THE TIME...but if you never get sore, there is a good chance you are not training intensely enough.
	Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. VPX Sponsored Athlete/Board Rep www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

05-08-2002, 03:56 PM	#13
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Florida Posts: 10,499	I like this Mathyus guy
	Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. VPX Sponsored Athlete/Board Rep www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

05-04-2002, 07:27 AM	#2
kuso Um......get rooted! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aka ( o Y o ) Posts: 15,033 Photos: 15	http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...highlight=DOMS (Do i have to be sore to grow?) Dude, here is one of many threads that may help you out

05-04-2002, 04:51 PM	#4
Josh Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Indonesia Posts: 337	Thanks a lot for the thread. So muscle soreness is not an indicator of a good workout or sureness of growth afterall. I guess this also means my understanding of muscle fibers being broken up causing soreness is errorneous. I'm 33 btw. -- Josh

05-07-2002, 04:34 PM	#9
ActionMatt Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Here Posts: 127	So lets recap: Train to be sore, train for a pump, and hit every possible angle. Gotcha.

05-07-2002, 07:14 PM	#10
Josh Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Indonesia Posts: 337	Ow wow, this is confusing. It seems that some of you say soreness is indeed an indicator of a good workout, while others say good workout does not necessarily produce soreness. Now I'm confused............. What is a reliable sign that a particular exercise just done has been done effectively or not? Uh...maybe I'll get conflicting answers to the above question as well huh? -- Josh

05-07-2002, 08:47 PM	#11
ActionMatt Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Here Posts: 127	Just done? Well, if you only got 6 reps on it with good form, and it hurt like hell, you probably did it pretty effectively. DOMS is prevalently believed to be caused by an inflammatory response to training-induced microtrauma to both the contractile apparatus and the sarcomere itself, not unlike inflammation of a cut on the skin. The immuno-histological response is very similar, involving specialized cells and biochemical agents that promote growth in the area. The pain is caused by stimulation of a particular class of nociceptors in the muscle complex. This simply implies that damage is done. This does not necessarily imply that growth will be the result. You have to take into account the tension created (either by loading or speed), the duration wrt that tension, any eccentric actions present, your diet, etc etc etc. So there's no clear-cut response to that question.

05-10-2002, 08:30 AM	#14
pumpit Madman Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: London Posts: 111
	The harder you try the tougher you will be!

05-10-2002, 11:06 AM	#15
CDWetzelberger Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: louisville Posts: 26	I have to agree with chicken daddy. You could do the same routine. Say Squat, Dip, Oh press, Pull down and a row. And Grow to pretty much your muscular potential with out ever changing that routine. Assuming 2 things. You continuing to progressively overload you muscles. More weight or more reps at the same weight. And that you get enough rest between work outs to recover from the previous work out.

05-10-2002, 12:04 PM	#16
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,520 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 313	Maybe you could, but it would sure get boring.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips!

05-10-2002, 04:52 PM	#17
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Deleting posts won't do any good. I only deleted the ones that had nothing to do with the thread. Last edited by Scotty the Body : 05-11-2002 at 09:28 AM.
	Being held down by The Man

05-11-2002, 12:19 PM	#19
LittLe FraNk Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: with god Posts: 202	owww i lift till i get to that rep where my arms cant do it alone then i know i got dam good workout cause i couldnt do another rep then i rest for min or two and do as many more as i can and then again and again
	LittLe FraNk

05-11-2002, 05:25 PM	#20
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Scotty, there were posts relavent towards that Mathyus dude. If there was anything remotely insulting in them you should have smimply edited those parts out.
	Being held down by The Man

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