Honestly, can I really bulk w/o gaining fat?

kcoleman · 07-25-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Can we get a diet/nutrition expert to comeover here and look at this shit.

No need for that, you seem to be expert enough.

**CowPimp** · 07-25-2006, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I will get the notes and medical reports I took from 1981 to 1988 showing I had 10-11% BF year round and went from 160 to 215 with only 5lbs of fat gain over 7 years.....just give me a minute.

I believe you, but then you were eating above maintenance calories to get there. It may have not been much over maintenance, but it was more than maintenance or you wouldn't have gained weight.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 12:41 PM

I am not talking about people new to lifting.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 12:42 PM

If you are eating maintenece and lifting that means you are eating enough to build muscle without fat.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 12:43 PM

CP- Tell me your explanation on how to find out your maintenece.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 12:45 PM

Maintenece means to maintain something, keep the same.
If you are eating maintenece that means you are maintaining your BF, and keeping your bodyfat the same.

TJ Cline · 07-25-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I believe you, but then you were eating above maintenance calories to get there. It may have not been much over maintenance, but it was more than maintenance or you wouldn't have gained weight.

Ok fine I was eating enough to build muscle but not gain fat ....I am not going to agrue over definitions and word ussage ......think you get my point just fine and I yours.

**CowPimp** · 07-25-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

If you are eating maintenece and lifting that means you are eating enough to build muscle without fat.

The whole problem with this argument is this flawed definition of maintenance. That is now what eating at maintenance means.

kcoleman · 07-25-2006, 12:47 PM

Foreman, you say you don't have to bulk in order to gain weight. I agree. But in reality, when you added LBW and kept BF the same, you were either steadily eating slightly above maintenance or going through mini bulk/cut cycles.

edit: nevermind, just read your post above this one

**CowPimp** · 07-25-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Ok fine I was eating enough to build muscle but not gain fat ....I am not going to agrue over definitions and word ussage ......think you get my point just fine and I yours.

Agreed. My most recent "bulk" was the same deal as yours. I gained very little fat with the muscle I gained. I'm currently "bulking" now as well, but I'm only eating about 5% above maintenance. Once my weight gains come to a hault I will increase calories another 5% or so.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 12:47 PM

CP- Tell me your explanation on how to find out your maintenece

**CowPimp** · 07-25-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

CP- Tell me your explanation on how to find out your maintenece

Trial and error is the only way, because even if you get tested via measurement of carbon dioxide emissions during expiration it is impossible to quantify daily activity levels. When you are eating an amount of calories that you keep your bodyweight the same, then you have discovered maintenance caloric intake.

TJ Cline · 07-25-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcoleman

Foreman, you say you don't have to bulk in order to gain weight. I agree. But in reality, when you added LBW and kept BF the same, you were either steadily eating slightly above maintenance or going through mini bulk/cut cycles.

I just see the term "bulk" used by most people to gain weight.....muscle and fat. To gain 10lbs of muscle and only 1 Lb of fat in 6 months to me is not classic bulking it is just great eating and training. It seems we only have a differance of opinions here on the term bulk not the results of one or how to grow.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Trial and error is the only way, because even if you get tested via measurement of carbon dioxide emissions during expiration it is impossible to quantify daily activity levels. When you are eating an amount of calories that you keep your bodyweight the same, then you have discovered maintenance caloric intake.

Wrong! When you are eating an amount of calories that keep your bodyfat the same, then you have discovered maintenece caloric intake.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 12:55 PM

CP- Does eating at maintenece make you maintain your Bodyfat or Bodyweight?

**CowPimp** · 07-25-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Wrong! When you are eating an amount of calories that keep your bodyfat the same, then you have discovered maintenece caloric intake.

I'm not wrong Mike. Why would it only concern your body fat? That's not homeostasis.

kcoleman · 07-25-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I just see the term "bulk" used by most people to gain weight.....muscle and fat. To gain 10lbs of muscle and only 1 Lb of fat in 6 months to me is not classic bulking it is just great eating and training. It seems we only have a differance of opinions here on the term bulk not the results of one or how to grow.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mile456

Wrong! When you are eating an amount of calories that keep your bodyfat the same, then you have discovered maintenece caloric intake.

What the fuck are you going on about... man you need to eat food in order to maintain your muscle mass too. It takes a caloric surplus to gain bodyfat, it also takes a caloric surplus to gain muscle mass. Otherwise people would just eat nothing to get shredded, but obviously that's not the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Does eating at maintenece make you maintain your Bodyfat or Bodyweight?

Bodyweight. Which is a combination of your bodyfat, skeletal muscles, organs, bones, fluids, etc....

TJ Cline · 07-25-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I'm not wrong Mike. Why would it only concern your body fat? That's not homeostasis.

No need to bring homos into this .

Favre · 07-25-2006, 01:05 PM

Where is this universal definition that maintenance is what it takes for you to keep the same amount of bodyfat? I've never heard of that.

I think 90% of people who aren't making gains aren't eating enough and it's foolish to try and add muscle while adding absolutely no bodyfat.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Tuvre, USA

I'm ready to start bulking again, but don't want to lose my abs. Any chance? Been training many yrs. Never had a successful "clean bulk" where I saw dramatic growth. My best growth is when I pig out on everything, but losing even 10 lbs of fat (later) sux.

Thanks

Yes it is possibls to gain muscle and keep at the same bodyfat, but you have to figure out the perfect number to eat.

This is how you do it, start with a guessed maintenece and lift with the same routine you will be doing when you reach the perfect number, measure your bodyfat weekly and see if it has gone up or down, if it has gone up lower the calories, if it has gone down up the calories, keep doing this until you get the perfect number, were your bodyfat does not go up or down. Now eat this number for the rest of your training life, but measure bf% every 2 weeks or so to see if it stays the same, you will gain weight but this weight will be muscle, with no fat.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcoleman

Bodyweight. Which is a combination of your bodyfat, skeletal muscles, organs, bones, fluids, etc....

How the fuck will eating maintenece maintain all this shit, what if you stop lifting you will lose muscle therefor losing bodyweight. What if you grow a few inches you will gain bodyweight. You were eating maintenence but still lost/gained weight, but your BF stayed the same, thiis is why eating manintenece only maintains bodyfat not bodyweight.

kcoleman · 07-25-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Now eat this number for the rest of your training life

haha nice advice.

Also there is no need to measure your bodyfat weekly/bi-monthly.... just use the mirror.

Tough Old Man · 07-25-2006, 01:11 PM

Well we will find out how hard it is to gain muscle, strength and lose B/F. If things go right this week, I have a personal trainer I'm hiring and his claim to fame is "it's doable and can be done is everything is in check". This is what he personalizes in.

kcoleman · 07-25-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

How the fuck will eating maintenece maintain all this shit, what if you stop lifting you will lose muscle therefor losing bodyweight. What if you grow a few inches you will gain bodyweight. You were eating maintenence but still lost/gained weight, but your BF stayed the same, thiis is why eating manintenece only maintains bodyfat not bodyweight.

Nobody is debating that factors such as quitting weightlifting, having a growth spurt, etc will have an effect on your bodyweight regardless if you eat maintenance or not.

fufu · 07-25-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Tell me were the hell you saw that if you eat at maintenece you will stay at the same weight??

Heres something to prove my point:
If you eat at maintenece, and stop lifting you will lose muscle there for- losing weight. That just proved you wrong, you ate at maintenece but still lost weight.

Now think in vice-versa:
If you ate maintenece and lifted weights you would gain muscle therefor- gaining weight!You ate at maintenece but still gained weight.

main·tain ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn-tn)
tr.v. main·tained, main·tain·ing, main·tains
To keep up or carry on; continue: maintain good relations.
To keep in an existing state; preserve or retain: maintain one's composure.
To keep in a condition of good repair or efficiency: maintain two cars.

To provide for; support: maintain a family.
To keep in existence; sustain: enough food to maintain life.
To defend or hold against criticism or attack: maintained his stand on taxes.
To declare to be true; affirm: maintained her innocence.
To adhere or conform to; keep: maintain a busy schedule.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 01:13 PM

I said all I need to say, and I am done if all of you want to keep gaining fat while trying to bulk, and then losing muscle while trying to cut, go ahead.

mike456 · 07-25-2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fufu

main·tain ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn-tn)
tr.v. main·tained, main·tain·ing, main·tains
To keep up or carry on; continue: maintain good relations.
To keep in an existing state; preserve or retain: maintain one's composure.
To keep in a condition of good repair or efficiency: maintain two cars.

To provide for; support: maintain a family.
To keep in existence; sustain: enough food to maintain life.
To defend or hold against criticism or attack: maintained his stand on taxes.
To declare to be true; affirm: maintained her innocence.
To adhere or conform to; keep: maintain a busy schedule.

Yea your keep in an existing state of your bodyfat. Does not mean because you are eating maintenece you will maintain everything. Your eating maintenece there for maintaining your Bodyfat.

fufu · 07-25-2006, 01:54 PM

Maintenance doesn't apply exclusively to bodyfat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AH!

07-25-2006, 12:41 PM	#63
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	I am not talking about people new to lifting.
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285

07-25-2006, 12:42 PM	#64
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	If you are eating maintenece and lifting that means you are eating enough to build muscle without fat.
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285

07-25-2006, 12:43 PM	#65
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	CP- Tell me your explanation on how to find out your maintenece.
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285

07-25-2006, 12:45 PM	#66
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	Maintenece means to maintain something, keep the same. If you are eating maintenece that means you are maintaining your BF, and keeping your bodyfat the same.
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285

07-25-2006, 12:47 PM	#71
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	CP- Tell me your explanation on how to find out your maintenece
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285

07-25-2006, 12:47 PM	#69
kcoleman Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: . Posts: 533	Foreman, you say you don't have to bulk in order to gain weight. I agree. But in reality, when you added LBW and kept BF the same, you were either steadily eating slightly above maintenance or going through mini bulk/cut cycles. edit: nevermind, just read your post above this one

07-25-2006, 12:55 PM	#75
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	CP- Does eating at maintenece make you maintain your Bodyfat or Bodyweight?
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285

07-25-2006, 01:05 PM	#79
Favre 3 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 141 Photos: 3	Where is this universal definition that maintenance is what it takes for you to keep the same amount of bodyfat? I've never heard of that. I think 90% of people who aren't making gains aren't eating enough and it's foolish to try and add muscle while adding absolutely no bodyfat.
	Max Good Morning - 874 Ibs.

07-25-2006, 01:11 PM	#83
Tough Old Man Canine club CEO Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: baja calif, Mexico Posts: 6,933 Photos: 1	Well we will find out how hard it is to gain muscle, strength and lose B/F. If things go right this week, I have a personal trainer I'm hiring and his claim to fame is "it's doable and can be done is everything is in check". This is what he personalizes in.

07-25-2006, 01:13 PM	#86
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	I said all I need to say, and I am done if all of you want to keep gaining fat while trying to bulk, and then losing muscle while trying to cut, go ahead.
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285

07-25-2006, 01:54 PM	#88
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,201 Photos: 4	Maintenance doesn't apply exclusively to bodyfat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AH!
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

07-25-2006, 01:55 PM	#89
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member