Thread: Training for Optimal Gains

workout sucks. cut it inhalf..better yet take 3/4 of that crap out. work your legs!

do an upper-lower split or do a push/legs/pull split

Originally Posted by Witchblade

Hi, this is my second post here so don't be surprised if I do something retarded. I haven't had any help from any professional whatsoever so this will be the first real help I get.

I have a rather tough question for you, but I'm sure you guys can help me out. Being a perfectionist, I'm not satisfied with my gains and I want to get bigger faster (doesn't everyone? ) So my question is: what should I do to get optimal results?

Here's about all the info I got:

Basics
- I weigh 155 lbs (70kg).
- I'm 6,1 ft tall (1.85m).
- I'm 16 years old.
- I've been training for about half a year (but see below).
- My daily protein intake is 150g.
- 13% bodyfat.
- On the basic compound exercises I train with weights around 125lbs (55kg) and I do around 10 reps (training schedule below).
- No supplements, except protein shakes (60g per day from shakes).
- I don't care about strength or endurance at all. I just care about hyperthropy. Also, I just work out my upper body.
- I do dynamic stretching and some cardio as a warmup and static stretching as a cool down.
- My trainings take about 60min.

Problems
- I work out 4 times a week (training schedule below). Twice in the gym and twice at home. But at home all I got is dumbells (!) and I've only been going to the gym for 3 weeks. This severely limited (/limits) my training options.
- I'm training for a very specific body: I really like killer abs, biceps, triceps, chest and deltoids, but I want to avoid training my trapezius muscles at all cost and I don't want to get really big. So I don't want a broad back. I try to train my back 'vertical instead of horizontal' if you know what I mean (I'm dutch). Something like a stronger version of http://khaoulita.afrikblog.com/images/104.jpg Usher (link). I find it hard to incorporate various exercises without stimulating the trapezius muscles. Especially for my deltoids, all I got now is the dumbell press. The other exercises all stimulate the trapezius or the front deltoids and my front deltoids are already way more developed than the other delts.

Training Schedule
Monday (chest, triceps and deltoids day) @ GYM
- Machine dips, 3x10.
- Barbell bench press, 4x8-12 (adding weight everytime until I can only do 8 with help).
- Incline barbell press, 3x8-12 (adding weight everytime until I can only do 8 with help).
- Peck deck, 3x10.
- Dumbell press, 6x8-10.

Tuesday
- 75min cardio (biking).

Wednesday (biceps, back and abs day) @ GYM
- Machine curl, 3x10.
- Barbell curl, 3x8-10.
- Variant machine curl, 3x10.
- Dumbell curl, 3x8-10.
- Chin up, 1x15-20.
- Front pulldown, 3x10.
- Hanging leg raise, 3x25 supersetting into hanging knee raise, 3x25.
- Incline crunch, 3x25 supersetting into weighted crunch, 3x25.

Thursday (chest, triceps and deltoids day) @ HOME
- Dumbell bench press, 3x10.
- Dumbell incline press, 3x10.
- Fly, 3x10.
- Incline fly, 3x10.
- Dumbell press, 6x8-10.

Friday
- Off

Saturday (biceps and abs day) @ HOME
- Dumbell curl, 3x10.
- Variant dumbell curl, 3x10.
- Variant dumbell curl, 3x6.
- Hammer curl, 3x10.
- Reverse crunch, 3x25 supersetting into incline crunch, 3x25.

Sunday
- 75min cardio (biking).



So, any thoughts? Suggestions? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.

Way too much volume.
YOU MUST TRAIN YOUR LOWER BODY TO SEE GOOD RESULTS OVERALL.

try a push-legs-pull routine. its good like this :

Monday: push
benchpress 3x8-10
incline press 3x8-10
military press 3x8-10
dips 3x8-10
skullcrushers 3x8-10

tues off or cardio

wednesday: legs
squats 4-5x6-10
sld's 3x8-10
leg ext. 3x8-10
leg curls 3x8-10
calfraises 2-3x10-12

thurs. off or cardio

friday: pull
bentover rows 3x8-10
one-arm row 3x8-10
wg(weighted) pullups 3x8-10
cg chinups 3x8-10
some kinda curl___________3x8-10

there you go. that routine is good and more than enough.

Hehe, Kenwood you're everywhere.

Hm, you both think that I need to work my lower body as well. Is it really necessary to work your legs if you just want a good upper body? Could someone give an explanation for that? I guess it's got something to do with balance. I'll definitely think about it.

And thanks for the workout Kenwood, I think it's good for bodybuilding, but I think it works the horizontal part of the back and the trapezius a lot too. The best exercises include those bodyparts I'm afraid, guess I'm making it hard for myself.

I'm gonna think about it, but first I'm going to bed. I'm not american, it's 4:30AM here. *yawns*

Thanks for the replies! Keep it comin'!

yes you should work legs, it helps the upperbody grow too. that routine i posted is great. oh and btw g'night

Allow me to turn your world upside down:

Isolation work does not build big biceps by itself. Isolation work may help when you have a solid foundation of compound exercises, but the foundation is far more important. Not to mention, your triceps are 2/3 of your upper arm mass. Besides the excess number of curls, you have way too much isolation work in general. Again, isolation work is fine to supplement a solid foundation, but you need that foundation to get the full benefit of the isolation work.

Resistance training is about far more than tearing down muscle tissue and rebuilding. You need to disrupt your body's happy state of homeostasis and force it to adapt (Isolation exercises suck at this, because they are relatively low stress on your body), you need to optimize hormonal response to your workouts (Again, isolation sucks for this because you stimulate a very small amount of muscle mass), and you need to provide it with the nutrition necessary to build new muscle tissue and increase energy substrates/stores within the tissue.

You must also implement progressive overload; you have to progress somehow in order to cause structural adaptations. Sticking to the same weights forever will not work. Sure, there are other ways of progressing (Increasing volume, increasing density, etc.), but you will most definitely have to put more weight on the bar at some point.

If you don't want big upper traps (I'm assuming you only mean the upper traps), then just don't train them directly and hope for the best. Unfortunately, they are going to be stimulated when doing a variety of other movements, such as overhead pressing. You may very well get big traps without using any isolation work; everyone has their strong points genetically.

Not training your lower body is a huge disservice to your upper body. Lower body exercises stimulate a greater hormonal response, and subsequently lead to additional hypertrophy in your upper body. As well, nothing builds a nice midsection like lower body exercises that load your trunk, period. Do all the crunches you want, but deadlifts are going to put it in the proverbial asshole of your abs. Then there's the fact that you look like a douche bag if you have a disproportionately large upper body compared to your lower body. I'm telling you right now, chicks dig nice legs. I swear to God I have got a lot of compliments on my legs from women.

Your body dislikes balance. You are going to have trouble building up the muscles on the front of your body if you don't develop the muscle on the backside of your body. Sure, your body can compensate, but eventually that compensation becomes a problem. Overdeveloped pectorals relative to your lower and middle trapezius is just asking for posture problems, shoulder problems, lower back problems, and possibly other joint issues. Couple this with your lack of lower body work and all your hip flexion movements without concomittant usage of hip extension and you are also asking for tight hip flexors and weak glutes. Again, this can lead to a whole host of orthopedic problems, and sooner than you think. When this shit starts happening, your physique will look like garbage (No one looks good hunched over), you will have pains in various joints preventing you from doing a lot of productive exercises, and your training career will be cut short. Don't fuck yourself in the ass by being too vain.


Scrap that program. It is horrible, and you are asking for problems later down the line. Read the following links and re-invent the wheel:

Training 101
Designing training routines by Cowpimp

^ This guy is a legend :P.

Do what he say, do what he say!

OK that definitely makes sense. My biceps are completely stuck at their training level and they're very small compared to the rest of my upper body. All the curling also sucks since it's boring.

So now I'm gonna:
- read those links thoroughly.
- incorporate lower body training in my schedule.
- buy a barbell for training at home.
- post a new schedule later and see if you guys think it's any good.

Thanks for all the help! Esp. Cowpimp.

Originally Posted by Witchblade

OK that definitely makes sense. My biceps are completely stuck at their training level and they're very small compared to the rest of my upper body. All the curling also sucks since it's boring.

So now I'm gonna:
- read those links thoroughly.
- incorporate lower body training in my schedule.
- buy a barbell for training at home.
- post a new schedule later and see if you guys think it's any good.

Thanks for all the help! Esp. Cowpimp.

At your weight when you can squat 350 lbs / deadlift 350 lbs and bench 200 lbs you will notice an increase in all your body measurements. Work mostly with compound movements and eat, eat and eat. Rest, rest and Rest.

i had the same mindset as you witchblade couple months ago before I came onto this board. I just wanted to work the muscles I can see in the mirror, and say fuck to legs and back. Alot of iso bi work also, like 12+ sets of isolation. I cut out all that crap, and my compounds do most of the work now.


Pimp just pretty much gave you 1 heck of a speech for you there. I'd re-read it couple time if i we're you. Some things might not make sense at first, but slowly it will.


and what's wrong with traps? they''re onme of myt fav's

I'm working on my program now and I have a new question: would it hurt to include 2 push days per week, but just 1 leg and 1 pull session? I really wanna put the emphasis on the abs and the chest, and I have a day left (pull, push, legs, but I got 4 days to train).

Originally Posted by Witchblade

I'm working on my program now and I have a new question: would it hurt to include 2 push days per week, but just 1 leg and 1 pull session? I really wanna put the emphasis on the abs and the chest, and I have a day left (pull, push, legs, but I got 4 days to train).

Legs once a week is fine but you need to balance your push and pull workouts so do both the same amount of times per week.