Thread: Calf raises - whats the point?

Some isolation is good. If you should do calf raises depends on your goals. I think everybody should do them.

Isolation or not i think theyre still a good exercise.

not just calf raises but resisted dorsiflexion also. Ankle stability is super important to your whole body. it affets the way you walk and transfer load/force. if you can't do that properly, you are fucked.

Originally Posted by P-funk

not just calf raises but resisted dorsiflexion also. Ankle stability is super important to your whole body. it affets the way you walk and transfer load/force. if you can't do that properly, you are fucked.

The "raise" of the heel is plantarflexion, yes? (Hence Calf Raise) So what would be labeled as dosiflexion? Or is it just the eccentric portion of the raise..


I do calf work just cuz mine are small and every little bit helps. Calves are like forearms, they are the most noticeable in public without taking your clothes off, so Id like shit to be balanced.

Originally Posted by AKIRA

The "raise" of the heel is plantarflexion, yes? (Hence Calf Raise) So what would be labeled as dosiflexion? Or is it just the eccentric portion of the raise..


I do calf work just cuz mine are small and every little bit helps. Calves are like forearms, they are the most noticeable in public without taking your clothes off, so Id like shit to be balanced.

Dorsiflexion is lifting your toes off the floor. It uses your tibialis anterior, the muscle that sits right on top of your shins. I would venture to say that more people need to work their tibialis as opposed to their calves.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Dorsiflexion is lifting your toes off the floor. It uses your tibialis anterior, the muscle that sits right on top of your shins. I would venture to say that more people need to work their tibialis as opposed to their calves.

agreed.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Dorsiflexion is lifting your toes off the floor. It uses your tibialis anterior, the muscle that sits right on top of your shins. I would venture to say that more people need to work their tibialis as opposed to their calves.

hmm, then how come when you deadlift for instance, and in bad form heels come off the ground it places more stress on your tibia, instead of your calves and the rest of your P-chain?

i'm guessing its about where the weight is.

Originally Posted by fUnc17

hmm, then how come when you deadlift for instance, and in bad form heels come off the ground it places more stress on your tibia, instead of your calves and the rest of your P-chain?

i'm guessing its about where the weight is.

you mean like when people are trying to lift a weight they shouldn't and they start to get ugly form and hitch the weight and their heels come off the floor?

That is just the bodies attempt to move the weight by extending everything it can. In times of need the body will do what it can to move weight and lift your feet off the ground or contort. Look at the morons that go to bench heavy and their feet come off the ground when they hit the sticking point.


now, if you mean the heels are coming up when you are squatting down to the bar, that is because of tightness.

Yea thats what i meant, pulling more weight than you should and heels coming up while pulling. I see what your saying

I only ask because I had the same problem awhile ago and felt my tibia being worked all the time because I was leaning forward when i began the pull off the floor, and as a result my heels came slightly up

the feeling in the tibia when ou bent over to pick the weight up was probably just your anterior tibiallis flexing when you bent over.

Originally Posted by fUnc17

Yea thats what i meant, pulling more weight than you should and heels coming up while pulling. I see what your saying

I only ask because I had the same problem awhile ago and felt my tibia being worked all the time because I was leaning forward when i began the pull off the floor, and as a result my heels came slightly up

Beyond what P said, that can sometimes be a lack of core strength or improper motor patterns still hanging around. Either one can lead to anterior weight bearing, which is very common, but wrong.

Ankle inflexibility can also cause this.

you say more people should be working thier tibialis instead of thier calves and gladely i would work mine. but what excercises are there for your tibialis

use a cable attachment and sit on the floor. that is how i do mine. I find the single handle ones work the best and I do them one leg at a time.

you can also sit on a bench (feet on the floor) and place a plate over your toes (a 25 works or a 45) and perform ant. tib. raises like that.

Originally Posted by P-funk

use a cable attachment and sit on the floor. that is how i do mine. I find the single handle ones work the best and I do them one leg at a time.

you can also sit on a bench (feet on the floor) and place a plate over your toes (a 25 works or a 45) and perform ant. tib. raises like that.

does or would that help with shin splints? Or is that a totally unrelated topic.

Originally Posted by boilermaker

does or would that help with shin splints? Or is that a totally unrelated topic.

I wouldn't think they would. I was always under the impression that shin splints had do with stopping to quickly from a fast pace. I get them in football sometimes, but I try and come to a slow pace before stopping.

Originally Posted by boilermaker

does or would that help with shin splints? Or is that a totally unrelated topic.

shin splints can occur for a few reasons....

1) Take From Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement Impairment Syndromes by Shirely Sharmann

pg. 35

When a patient has weakness of the ankle plantar flexors muscles, the momentum generated by push off for the swing phase cannot be used; instead, the hip flexion phase tends to be exaggerated. These variations of hip flexion versus ankle push off strategies are seen in runners. Observations of runners who tend to keep their weight line posterior- closer to the rear than to the front of the foot- show they use the hip flexor strategy, which also involves an excessive use of the tibialis anterior muscle, leading to shin splints. In contrast runners who keep their weight line forward can be observed to use more push off with their ankle plantar flexor muscles.

2) from Kineseology of the Musculoskeletal System: Foundations for physical rehabilitaion by Donald Neumann

Active individuals with flat, overly pronated feet may develop a syndrome know as shin splints. This syndrome is due to overuse and susequent strain of the tibialis posterior and/or anterior ankle muscles. the overuse is secondary to the increased work demnads placed on the supinator muscles as they attempt to control the excessive pronation bias of the foot during early stance.

So, if you are having shin splint problems you may want to check your gait. Check the tightness of your anterior tibiallis (muscle which dorsiflexes the foot) and check the strength of your plantar flexors. At the same time you want to make sure you aren't overpronating (flatning your foot out). if you are you need to stretch your peroneals and strengthen your posterior tibialils. Together these muscles form a 'sling' around the foot and help to balance out the arch. If one is tight then it throws the arch support off and can cause these sorts of problems.

Maybe shin splint was a bad choice of words. From time to time when I run or walk briskly on a treadmill the muscles that dorsiflex my foot (that's lift up the front, right) get really sore and tight. particularly right above the ankle bone on the outside part of my calf. It becomes painful to dorsiflex the foot. It gets better if I slow down and sometimes I can just run through the stiffness and pain.

...nice one 'P-funk'....good post about shin splints.

i suffer from shin splints myself... skipping seems to bring it on and it can take weeks for it to settle down.

It always helps to understand where the problem is coming from... i always thought it was through constant pounding of the foot on the floor literially shaking the muscle off the bone..... so i was wrong...

Originally Posted by boilermaker

Maybe shin splint was a bad choice of words. From time to time when I run or walk briskly on a treadmill the muscles that dorsiflex my foot (that's lift up the front, right) get really sore and tight. particularly right above the ankle bone on the outside part of my calf. It becomes painful to dorsiflex the foot. It gets better if I slow down and sometimes I can just run through the stiffness and pain.

stretch your anterior tib.

also work on strengthening your plantar flexors, not just with calf raises, but things that help to increase the myotatic stretch reflex and teach you to push off thr gound better (johnny begood can benefit from this too). Start with just calf hops (plantar flexor hops). get in a hip width stance (athletic stance) and work on hopping on the balls of your toes, kind of like jumoing rope. Do it for short bursts of time for as fast as you can....Start with 5 or 6 sec of all out hopping in place and then rest about 20 or 30sec. Then repeat. Warm up before you run like this. This is just a basic quick foot drill that I use with my runners.


Also, try and be conscious of your posture when you run and epecially when you brisk walk. If you are doing it in a sway back posture (upper body leaning back behind your center of gravity) this will make you contact with that back heel of your foot more, creating more dorsiflexion as you push through (midstance) and into the toe off phase of gait. This tension might be what you are feeling. Look to hit mid foot and have a little bit of a foreward lean.

Originally Posted by P-funk

stretch your anterior tib.

also work on strengthening your plantar flexors, not just with calf raises, but things that help to increase the myotatic stretch reflex and teach you to push off thr gound better (johnny begood can benefit from this too). Start with just calf hops (plantar flexor hops). get in a hip width stance (athletic stance) and work on hopping on the balls of your toes, kind of like jumoing rope. Do it for short bursts of time for as fast as you can....Start with 5 or 6 sec of all out hopping in place and then rest about 20 or 30sec. Then repeat. Warm up before you run like this. This is just a basic quick foot drill that I use with my runners.


Also, try and be conscious of your posture when you run and epecially when you brisk walk. If you are doing it in a sway back posture (upper body leaning back behind your center of gravity) this will make you contact with that back heel of your foot more, creating more dorsiflexion as you push through (midstance) and into the toe off phase of gait. This tension might be what you are feeling. Look to hit mid foot and have a little bit of a foreward lean.

Activation work for your plantar flexors, good idea. I have a friend who just complained to me about shin splits the other day, I'll have to offer her this advice.

There is a trainer at my gym that uses his weight sled to keep things fun and interesting while reinforcing positive shin angles during sprinting. He has people drag the sled with enough weight so they have to get some forward lean. At some point during the drag he well tell them to drop the ropes and sprint. I understand jogging is different in terms of the foot strike and shin angle, but I thought it was an interesting idea nonetheless.

Originally Posted by fUnc17

I only ask because I had the same problem awhile ago and felt my tibia being worked all the time because I was leaning forward when i began the pull off the floor, and as a result my heels came slightly up

To stabalize the body you sometimes have opposing forces being exerted as well. The rear deltoid is activated on a bench press, as an example. Lats come into play, on an overhead press as well.

also making sure that the foot on the swing leg is cocked and dorsiflexed is important too. A lot of people let the foot of their swing leg drop and plantar flex which leads to stability problems when they contact the ground as well as poor transfer off force. So, working on form running is important. I have people place their hands up against a wall (like a calf stretch) and bring one leg up (hip flexion) with the foot cocked, like they would be running, and a slight foreward lean and then I call out numbers of the amount of times I want them to turn over their legs. So, if they started with the left leg flexed (I make sure to fix them into good position) and the righ on the ground and I yell 3. Then they go, left, right, left. Pause in that position and wait for my instruction or corrections on what the form looks like.

Originally Posted by P-funk

also making sure that the foot on the swing leg is cocked and dorsiflexed is important too. A lot of people let the foot of their swing leg drop and plantar flex which leads to stability problems when they contact the ground as well as poor transfer off force. So, working on form running is important. I have people place their hands up against a wall (like a calf stretch) and bring one leg up (hip flexion) with the foot cocked, like they would be running, and a slight foreward lean and then I call out numbers of the amount of times I want them to turn over their legs. So, if they started with the left leg flexed (I make sure to fix them into good position) and the righ on the ground and I yell 3. Then they go, left, right, left. Pause in that position and wait for my instruction or corrections on what the form looks like.

I've never understood the whole dorsiflex your ankles before contacting the ground thing, particularly concerning plyometrics. It seems to me like if your ankle is dorsiflexed upon contact with the ground then you are going to have to incorporate a horrible forward lean upon landing, unless you want to land on your heels, which I thought was wrong. Or, are you supposed to maintain dorsiflexion and then plantarflex right before contact to allow for some kind of stretch reflex to occur?

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I've never understood the whole dorsiflex your ankles before contacting the ground thing, particularly concerning plyometrics. It seems to me like if your ankle is dorsiflexed upon contact with the ground then you are going to have to incorporate a horrible forward lean upon landing, unless you want to land on your heels, which I thought was wrong. Or, are you supposed to maintain dorsiflexion and then plantarflex right before contact to allow for some kind of stretch reflex to occur?

the dorsiflexion in the swing phase is not about absorbing force but about clearing the toes off the ground and placing greater strain on other parts of the leg.

Kineseology of the Musculoskeletal System:Foundations for Physical Rehabilitation by Donald Neumann

PG. 550 (kineseology of walking)

The second action of the tibialis anterior is the dorsiflexion of the ankle during swing. The purpose of this muscle action is to clear the toes from the ground. Extreme weakness of the tibialis anterior and other dorsiflexors is expressed hby the inability to dorsiflex the ankle during awing. This problem, know as "drop foot", cuases an individual to excessively flex the knee and huip during swing. Other compensatory manuevers, such as vaulting, hip circumdution, and hip hiking, may also be adopted to clear the toes. A drop foot causes the forefoot to contact the ground first. A common remedy for drop foot is a poserior ankle-foot orthosis that passively maintains ankle dorsiflexion furing walking.

Originally Posted by P-funk

the dorsiflexion in the swing phase is not about absorbing force but about clearing the toes off the ground and placing greater strain on other parts of the leg.

Kineseology of the Musculoskeletal System:Foundations for Physical Rehabilitation by Donald Neumann

PG. 550 (kineseology of walking)

What about during plyometrics?

during landing like in jumps and such, I want the person to land around the mid foot, somewhere between the ball of the big toe and the arch to absorb force.

skipping or bounding....same angles as in running....make them running specific.

Originally Posted by P-funk

during landing like in jumps and such, I want the person to land around the mid foot, somewhere between the ball of the big toe and the arch to absorb force.

skipping or bounding....same angles as in running....make them running specific.

I meant, what is the point of dorsiflexing the ankle in midair during plyometrics? Does it help them achieve a landing where you are suggesting?