German Volume Training (GVT)- why does it work so well?

sharkattack · 08-08-2006, 05:51 PM

I asked once before, but didn't get a lot of replies. I am curious why this method of training seems to work so well. As far as how it's different from 'conventional' training, instead of doing 3-4 exercises per large body part, you do just one. And you do it for 10 sets.

That being said, why does it seem more effective to do, say, 10 sets of 10 reps of low incline bench press vs. 3-4 movements at 3-4 sets each for chest?

My theory is that since the GVT method of training has you repeating the same movement over and over, you're going to really improve on that movement in that plane of motion, whereas 'conventional' training has you hitting the chest from multiple angles but for fewer sets per angle.

Does any of this make sense? I've been using the GVT method for a couple of weeks and really like it. It's not the most exciting thing, the same exercise for 10 sets, but it does seem to be having a positive effect-which is why we train in the first place, right?

If any of you kind folks have any info that you'd like to share, please do so. Also, how many folks either have done GVT training in the past, are currently doing GVT, or plan on doing GVT? If you used it in the past, what types of results did you get? What made you stop?

As always, thank you for the help,
Scott

**Mudge** · 08-08-2006, 06:07 PM

If you are talking about improvement in only one plane of motion, you must be talking strength not size? The program is not in the best rep range for strength.

So, when you are saying it works well - in what manner are you speaking of?

sharkattack · 08-08-2006, 07:39 PM

I meant for adding size. Sorry for the confusion. I understand that it's not a long term program, a 12 week or so limit.

SuperFlex · 08-08-2006, 07:53 PM

I'll probably do it again for squats... Possibly bench, but probably not. I don't want a HUGE chest...

I think you're responding to it because it's new to your body. What you've already said makes sense to a point as well. Those type of gains won't last forever and when you switch it back up you'll probably be pleased with 3-4 sets of 3-4 exercises again... If you want research and scientific answers type it in your internet search engine...

Here's an article.
http://www.strengthcats.com/CP-GVT.html

**P-funk** · 08-08-2006, 09:54 PM

anything works well for size if you eat enough food.

"everything works but nothing works forever."
-louie simmons

LoadedBats · 08-09-2006, 09:43 AM

Check out this article by Charles Poliquin:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=658759

It's an advanced version of GVT. Better utilized for strength gains. I havn't tried it, but may consider it for the future.

**CowPimp** · 08-09-2006, 09:06 PM

There is a very high work density with the GVT protocol. I kind of want to try it with squats, but I do like the ability to walk...

33sun33 · 08-09-2006, 09:19 PM

This looks pretty interesting and I might give it a try.

Is it best to do it like Poliquin suggests: chest and back on one day, legs/abs another, and arms and shoulders the third?

I thought body part routines were outdated (you know, all the push/pull, total body advocates...)?

**Mudge** · 08-09-2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

"everything works but nothing works forever."
-louie simmons

Common mistake is for people to switch to a new routine, make gains, and think they have found the Holy Grail.

Good quote.

Witchblade · 08-11-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

There is a very high work density with the GVT protocol. I kind of want to try it with squats, but I do like the ability to walk...

Reminds me of 2 weeks back when I did a way too intense leg workout. Next day I got out of bed, I just fell on the ground. Next 2 days I found out what it's like to be semi-handicapped.

joesmooth20 · 08-12-2006, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoadedBats

Check out this article by Charles Poliquin:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=658759

It's an advanced version of GVT. Better utilized for strength gains. I havn't tried it, but may consider it for the future.

I don't like it, I sure you get just as good of results using a program with much less volume.

ElbowStrike · 03-17-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkattack

I am curious why this method of training seems to work so well...

...why does it seem more effective to do, say, 10 sets of 10 reps of low incline bench press vs. 3-4 movements at 3-4 sets each for chest?

...My theory is that since the GVT method of training has you repeating the same movement over and over, you're going to really improve on that movement in that plane of motion.

...Does any of this make sense?

...If you used it in the past, what types of results did you get? What made you stop?

As always, thank you for the help,
Scott

It seems like you've answered your own question.

By attacking the same set of muscle fibers with a repeated load over, and over, and over, and over again they get a growth stimulus like they've never seen before.

The more sets of an exercise you do, the more fatigued muscle fibers "drop out" of the effort and new, untapped ones are recruited. By the end of 10 sets you've recruited muscle fibers that have literally never been used before.

The very high volume also stimulates the growth-resistant slow-twitch fibers into hypertrophy, which makes this a good program for endurance athletes who want to put on functional mass for their sport.

When I was 16 and a novice racing in winter biathlon, I was going up against kids who'd been training since they were four years old. All the hill work and hours of cross-country skiing had given them these hypertrophied legs that were specialized for endurance work.

I trained the entire off-season in GVT to grow my legs (I managed to get up to 10x10 with 255 over the summer), and then modified it to specialize for endurance. I increased the reps to 10x12, then over several workouts decreased the rest periods to 30 seconds. So I was doing 10 sets of 12 reps with 255 with only 30 seconds of rest.

Since I had been using the same weight for months on end I rarely, if ever, experienced DOMS and I could actually maintain my strength-endurance through the entire biathlon season by doing the 10x12x30s workout every weekend there wasn't a race.

Oh yeah, and in that one year I went from the provincial "C" team to placing 24th at the North American Champs. Not too shabby an improvement for one year's training.

Since then, I've turned to GVT any time I've had the opportunity to focus solely on bodybuilding. I'm sure you can see how training with GVT is completely incompatible with concurrently training for any sport whatsoever.

I must make a correction though. I see this mistake everywhere I see people talk about GVT. Here goes...

GERMAN VOLUME TRAINING IS NOT TEN SETS OF TEN REPS!!!

Whew!

Nice to get that out of my system.

GVT is also known as the "ten sets method". The number of reps varies.

10 sets of 10 reps is a TEMPORARY program for beginners whose bodies have not been exposed to high-volume training. Only the first month of GVT is 10x10.

It goes like this:

Beginner:
6 x 5-day cycles of GVT are 10x10,
Two weeks off,
Move on to intermediate

Intermediate:
6 x 5-day cycles are 10x6
Two weeks off,
Repeat intermediate until plateau, then move on to advanced.

Advanced:
6 x 5-day cycles, strategically cycling resistance and reps like so:

10x6 @ 200 (your current 12RM)
10x5 @ 210
10x4 @ 215
10x6 @ 210
10x5 @ 215
10x4 @ 220
At this point you should be able to perform one set of 12 with 215

Even after that's stopped working for you, you can go on and do 10x3 @ 6RM to transform all your newly-grown muscle into strong, functional muscle that can move massive weight.

Once your strength gains plateau, you can start all over again at 10x10.

Due to GVT's changing nature, in theory you could cycle through the entire GVT program forever and make gains, forever.

In practice, you'd get horribly, horribly bored of it and tired of being half-handicapped all the time with the deep muscle soreness.

Just my 10 x 2 cents!

-- ElbowStrike

Biggly · 03-17-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

GERMAN VOLUME TRAINING IS NOT TEN SETS OF TEN REPS!!!

Yes it is, for 99% of lifters - because they do that 'intro' and never do such high volume again!

Someone once emailed me and asked "If muscles grow through damage, why lift weights when you could just beat yourself stupid with a meat tenderizer?" or words to that effect.

That would be preferable, and less painful, to GVT.

B.

**Gazhole** · 03-17-2008, 12:35 PM

Like Mudge said, i think people give some of these programs far too much credit. Yeah they may be good ideas, but its the variation that really makes the difference.

mistergoodbar · 03-17-2008, 02:21 PM

I think it would be an excellent program if you were German and on d-bol.

ElbowStrike · 03-17-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistergoodbar

I think it would be an excellent program if you were German and on d-bol.

Or still 16 and bullet-proof.

btstrg · 04-22-2008, 06:54 PM

Hi could you answer a question for me. I have been reading on trying this but am confused. Do you superset this or would you do say 10 sets of bench with a 60 sec rest between each set?? or do bench then go right to back and then a 90 sec rest? When reading the workouts it says Notes: Rest 90 seconds between each "A" exercise and each superset.

How do you do it??

Thanks
Brian

Biggly · 04-22-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

bench then go right to back and then a 90 sec rest

B.

chris mason · 04-22-2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

anything works well for size if you eat enough food.

"everything works but nothing works forever."
-louie simmons

Did you ever get my PM?

chris mason · 04-22-2008, 11:18 PM

That quote by Louie is SOOOOO true.

GVT is something that would work if used on a limited basis. Otherwise, you will quickly stagnate.

btstrg · 04-23-2008, 05:39 AM

So there's two ways I can go about my sets. Taking chest and back day for example, one way would be:
Bench->60 sec break->Bench->break->Bench for 10 sets, then the same with Chins.
The other way would be:
Bench->Chins->90 sec break->Bench->Chins->break for 10 sets.

I wanted to do it the first way, but then thought I would be better to it the second way to save time. But now I'm confused, because it's important to have consistent 60 second breaks between sets, what's with the longer break down below on top of doing a different muscle exercise. What's the deal with these two methods? If i do it in a superset than there is a 2.5 min rest between say the each bench set dosnt that defeat the purpose waiting that long between sets?

Thanks

**P-funk** · 04-23-2008, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Did you ever get my PM?

I don't think so?

**CowPimp** · 04-23-2008, 12:56 PM

When I do supersets, I prefer to do something like this:

Bench
Rest
Chinup
Rest
Bench
Rest
Chinup
Rest
Etc.

So, I insert some rest in between the two exercises each time.

**Built** · 04-23-2008, 01:05 PM

Those aren't supersets. First off, they're not hitting the same muscle group. Second, you're resting between sets.

Pushing and pulling like you're doing is antagonist pairs training. I like it very much by the way - the antagonist gets a rest while you train the agonist, the workout moves along fairly quickly, and even though the rests between sets may be on the short side, the rests between pushes are longer because you've done a pull in between, and vice versa. Clears metabolites from the antagonist that was just trained while the agonist works... all good stuff. Plus it ensures your training is balanced between push and pull for that area - always a plus.

**Gazhole** · 04-23-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

When I do supersets, I prefer to do something like this:

Bench
Rest
Chinup
Rest
Bench
Rest
Chinup
Rest
Etc.

So, I insert some rest in between the two exercises each time.

I do them like this too, probably after you mentioned them in a thread like this :P

**CowPimp** · 04-23-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Those aren't supersets. First off, they're not hitting the same muscle group. Second, you're resting between sets.

Pushing and pulling like you're doing is antagonist pairs training. I like it very much by the way - the antagonist gets a rest while you train the agonist, the workout moves along fairly quickly, and even though the rests between sets may be on the short side, the rests between pushes are longer because you've done a pull in between, and vice versa. Clears metabolites from the antagonist that was just trained while the agonist works... all good stuff. Plus it ensures your training is balanced between push and pull for that area - always a plus.

Semantics. Some people call them "antagonist supersets." I don't know that there is a cut and dry definition of a superset. In fact, in my certification text they used some weird name for a superset; it might have been a compound set.

Anyway, the point is it's a useful tool to put in the training tool box. Whether you want to call it a superset or not is your perogative. I'm glad you like "antagonist pairing" though, heh.

**Built** · 04-23-2008, 06:24 PM

Oh, I wasn't meaning to criticize, sorry if it came out that way. I'm not a big fan of actual supersets - but antagonist pairs are awesome!

nartic · 04-23-2008, 09:14 PM

Right now am doing the 10 set 10 rep range for each body part the second half of the week an doing the 5 set 5 rep range for the first half of the week.

btstrg · 04-24-2008, 11:59 AM

Thanks for the replies. I did chest and back last night. I had to adjust the weights on the Dumbbells a couple of times as I started to low.
I really didn't rest between the chest and back but did the 90 sec after both exercises.
When I woke up this morning I really didn't think it did that much as I didn't feel that sore, but as the day goes on I am starting to really feel it. I needed a nice break in routines and this seems to be a pretty simple and hopefully affective program.
Thanks again

**CowPimp** · 04-24-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Oh, I wasn't meaning to criticize, sorry if it came out that way. I'm not a big fan of actual supersets - but antagonist pairs are awesome!

Yeah, I didn't really take it that way. You can't hear my tone of voice over the Internet, but if you could you would hear that I wasn't really being defensive. I just like to clarify. My point was simply that we both agree on the concept, our aribtrary naming scheme for it is just different. Hehe.

08-08-2006, 05:51 PM	#1
sharkattack Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 7	German Volume Training (GVT)- why does it work so well? I asked once before, but didn't get a lot of replies. I am curious why this method of training seems to work so well. As far as how it's different from 'conventional' training, instead of doing 3-4 exercises per large body part, you do just one. And you do it for 10 sets. That being said, why does it seem more effective to do, say, 10 sets of 10 reps of low incline bench press vs. 3-4 movements at 3-4 sets each for chest? My theory is that since the GVT method of training has you repeating the same movement over and over, you're going to really improve on that movement in that plane of motion, whereas 'conventional' training has you hitting the chest from multiple angles but for fewer sets per angle. Does any of this make sense? I've been using the GVT method for a couple of weeks and really like it. It's not the most exciting thing, the same exercise for 10 sets, but it does seem to be having a positive effect-which is why we train in the first place, right? If any of you kind folks have any info that you'd like to share, please do so. Also, how many folks either have done GVT training in the past, are currently doing GVT, or plan on doing GVT? If you used it in the past, what types of results did you get? What made you stop? As always, thank you for the help, Scott

08-08-2006, 06:07 PM	#2
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,360 Photos: 1	If you are talking about improvement in only one plane of motion, you must be talking strength not size? The program is not in the best rep range for strength. So, when you are saying it works well - in what manner are you speaking of? Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

08-08-2006, 07:53 PM	#4
SuperFlex Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,321	I'll probably do it again for squats... Possibly bench, but probably not. I don't want a HUGE chest... I think you're responding to it because it's new to your body. What you've already said makes sense to a point as well. Those type of gains won't last forever and when you switch it back up you'll probably be pleased with 3-4 sets of 3-4 exercises again... If you want research and scientific answers type it in your internet search engine... Here's an article. http://www.strengthcats.com/CP-GVT.html May the Lord Jesus Christ bless those who bless me as I gladly accept their blessings, and curse those who curse me all the while protecting me for any evils. In Christ name, amen... Last edited by SuperFlex : 08-08-2006 at 08:37 PM.

08-08-2006, 09:54 PM	#5
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,496	anything works well for size if you eat enough food. "everything works but nothing works forever." -louie simmons E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! Online Coaching!! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

08-09-2006, 09:06 PM	#7
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,486	There is a very high work density with the GVT protocol. I kind of want to try it with squats, but I do like the ability to walk... The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

08-08-2006, 07:39 PM	#3
sharkattack Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 7	I meant for adding size. Sorry for the confusion. I understand that it's not a long term program, a 12 week or so limit.

08-09-2006, 09:43 AM	#6
LoadedBats Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: PA Posts: 234 Photos: 3	Check out this article by Charles Poliquin: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=658759 It's an advanced version of GVT. Better utilized for strength gains. I havn't tried it, but may consider it for the future.

08-09-2006, 09:19 PM	#8
33sun33 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Albany, New York Posts: 201	This looks pretty interesting and I might give it a try. Is it best to do it like Poliquin suggests: chest and back on one day, legs/abs another, and arms and shoulders the third? I thought body part routines were outdated (you know, all the push/pull, total body advocates...)?

03-17-2008, 12:35 PM	#14
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 7,457 Photos: 19	Like Mudge said, i think people give some of these programs far too much credit. Yeah they may be good ideas, but its the variation that really makes the difference. http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 16/05/09 ***READ THIS FOR TRAINING INFO:*** http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/99879-articles-ironmagazineforums-members.html "Do i not like that? No, i do not not like that, i LIKE that!"

03-17-2008, 02:21 PM	#15
mistergoodbar Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: usa Posts: 14	I think it would be an excellent program if you were German and on d-bol.

04-22-2008, 06:54 PM	#17
btstrg Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 3	How to GVT question Hi could you answer a question for me. I have been reading on trying this but am confused. Do you superset this or would you do say 10 sets of bench with a 60 sec rest between each set?? or do bench then go right to back and then a 90 sec rest? When reading the workouts it says Notes: Rest 90 seconds between each "A" exercise and each superset. How do you do it?? Thanks Brian

04-22-2008, 11:18 PM	#20
chris mason Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 407	That quote by Louie is SOOOOO true. GVT is something that would work if used on a limited basis. Otherwise, you will quickly stagnate.

04-23-2008, 05:39 AM	#21
btstrg Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 3	Confusion about GVT and sets So there's two ways I can go about my sets. Taking chest and back day for example, one way would be: Bench->60 sec break->Bench->break->Bench for 10 sets, then the same with Chins. The other way would be: Bench->Chins->90 sec break->Bench->Chins->break for 10 sets. I wanted to do it the first way, but then thought I would be better to it the second way to save time. But now I'm confused, because it's important to have consistent 60 second breaks between sets, what's with the longer break down below on top of doing a different muscle exercise. What's the deal with these two methods? If i do it in a superset than there is a 2.5 min rest between say the each bench set dosnt that defeat the purpose waiting that long between sets? Thanks

04-23-2008, 12:56 PM	#23
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,486	When I do supersets, I prefer to do something like this: Bench Rest Chinup Rest Bench Rest Chinup Rest Etc. So, I insert some rest in between the two exercises each time. The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

04-23-2008, 01:05 PM	#24
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 5,180	Those aren't supersets. First off, they're not hitting the same muscle group. Second, you're resting between sets. Pushing and pulling like you're doing is antagonist pairs training. I like it very much by the way - the antagonist gets a rest while you train the agonist, the workout moves along fairly quickly, and even though the rests between sets may be on the short side, the rests between pushes are longer because you've done a pull in between, and vice versa. Clears metabolites from the antagonist that was just trained while the agonist works... all good stuff. Plus it ensures your training is balanced between push and pull for that area - always a plus.

04-23-2008, 06:24 PM	#27
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 5,180	Oh, I wasn't meaning to criticize, sorry if it came out that way. I'm not a big fan of actual supersets - but antagonist pairs are awesome!

04-23-2008, 09:14 PM	#28
nartic Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: No where Posts: 110 Photos: 13	Right now am doing the 10 set 10 rep range for each body part the second half of the week an doing the 5 set 5 rep range for the first half of the week.

04-24-2008, 11:59 AM	#29
btstrg Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 3	'German Volume Training (GVT)- why does it work so well?' Thanks for the replies. I did chest and back last night. I had to adjust the weights on the Dumbbells a couple of times as I started to low. I really didn't rest between the chest and back but did the 90 sec after both exercises. When I woke up this morning I really didn't think it did that much as I didn't feel that sore, but as the day goes on I am starting to really feel it. I needed a nice break in routines and this seems to be a pretty simple and hopefully affective program. Thanks again

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