Ab Work and How Often

PWGriffin · 08-16-2006, 08:38 AM

Someone has told me they do abs everytime they work out....up to 3-4 times a week...What do you guys think? He said abs "heal" more quickly so you can work them more often than other muscles. Sounds like crap to me....I do very little direct ab work throughout the week...maybe a couple times after leg day...and just a little bit when I do work abs. I feel I get enough core work through all of the heavy compound lifts....(it's ALL I do just about)

Thoughts?

Opinions?

Scientific data??

**P-funk** · 08-16-2006, 08:40 AM

this has been discussed like 20x's over in the past 2 weeks in like 4 different threads.

BigPapaPump68 · 08-16-2006, 08:43 AM

I usually work abs 3 times a week and find that it works great for me. Some people are naturally gifted when it comes abs and find that they dont need to work them hard at all for them to show.

**P-funk** · 08-16-2006, 08:59 AM

Big discussion here

another discssion here

911=InsideJob · 08-16-2006, 04:14 PM

Everyday is fine. I'm not sure if you saw UFC' All Access: Tito Ortiz but he doest hundreds of reps for abs a day. Bruce Lee was also an ab fanatic and trained it daily.

dontsurfonmytur · 08-16-2006, 07:11 PM

i do 3 full body worksouts a week and i do abs all 3 workouts. I try to keep my ab work less than 7-9 minutes

Tough Old Man · 08-16-2006, 08:36 PM

How about letting all the weight training take care of the AB'S. One of the best set of AB's I have ever seen was on a guy name LAM and he does no special training for the AB's.

**CowPimp** · 08-16-2006, 08:58 PM

I think doing any kind of heavy resistance training every day for your abs is moronic. Your trunk muscles are still muscles, and they require time to recover as well.

ubercoach · 08-31-2006, 01:36 PM

I saved this quote from Mel Siff for two knuckleheads who insist that one needs to train obliques with more than bodyweight resistence. However, after my first post on the subject they fell silent so I've lost track of the thread.
It may be of some benefit here:

ABOMINABLE AB MANIA
by Dr. Mel Siff

It seems as if the abdominals are the favorite target for exercise in the general fitness and aerobics world -- the more, the better! There are probably more abdominal exercise experts than any other types of fitness expert on the fitness circuit (except possibly for stretching. We have incredible abs, astounding abs, absolutely marvelous abs, marvelous midriffs, super abs, sexy abs and another hundred superlatively shaped ab words (all thinly disguised imitations of the book title "Legendary Abs" by my colleague, Jerry Robinson of Los Angeles.)

If we followed the lead and philosophies of the ancient Greeks, we would probably worship Greek gods and goddesses of abdominal perfection, with a couple of Muses, Nymphs or demi-gods thrown in to take care of each striations on our washerboard abs.!

Machines vs. No Machines

What about ab machines? Well, there are also probably more machines on the market aimed at trimming and shaping the abdominal muscles than any other devices out there. Why? The answer is quite simple--marketing and money! Nothing else.

Sure, some of these weird, wonderful or pretty machines are laughably useless, while other are a bit more successful, but the fact remains that virtually no serious physique athlete or competitive bodybuilder has ever relied solely on any form of AB machine to develop his/her exceptional abs. And if they are publicly claiming that they did, they you can be sure in most cases that they are heavily sponsored to say so!

No research project has ever compared matched groups of subjects working on ab machines with others working with 'crunches' on the mat,'cable crunches', jack-knives or leg raises (yes - I am deliberately including some of the exercises appearing on 'hit lists' because some very successful bodybuilders swear by them, believe it or not! I have also encountered some international level bodybuilders who hardly ever do situps or use ab machines, yet they have 'phenomenal' abdominals.

I have taken EMG readings and muscle tension measurements of the abdominal muscles while bodybuilders have been carrying out every imaginable type of ab exercise with and without machines and quite honestly cannot conclude that any machine-aided ab exercise is better than traditional bodybuilding ab exercises done with resistance. In most cases, I note that carefully executed concentration crunches using powerful mental focus and held breath produced greater electrical activity and muscle tension than ab exercise in aerobics or on machines with the traditional breathing in and out patterns.

From the Eastern Experts

After a few research visits to Russia and collaborative projects with Eastern scientists and coaches, I learned that many of their experts regard special abdominal exercises as a total waste of time, because they consider that the trunk muscle are strongly involved either in stabilizing or moving some or other part of the body during other non-isolational exercises.

At one NSCA (National Strength and Conditioning Association) conference in the USA, I remember one of the top Bulgarian strength coaches, Angel Spassov, laughing at questions from American football coaches who wanted to know the best way of doing situps or crunches to 'strengthen' the abs for Football. His response was that if players were squatting, cleaning and pressing, bench pressing, deadlifting and so forth,their trunk muscles were already much more strongly involved than they are during most situps, crunches or machine training.

Ubercoach

**P-funk** · 08-31-2006, 02:46 PM

Good article...

I liked this:

Quote:

because they consider that the trunk muscle are strongly involved either in stabilizing or moving some or other part of the body during other non-isolational exercises.

and this:

Quote:

is response was that if players were squatting, cleaning and pressing, bench pressing, deadlifting and so forth,their trunk muscles were already much more strongly involved than they are during most situps, crunches or machine training.

I can't believe that people still disagree with that. I work for a couple of morons and they always tell me that I need to do more core and ab training with my clients (well actually their clients....since i work for them) because that is most important. I am like "we are doing core...we squat, we deadlift, etc.."......These people think that is ridiculous. I am trainign some of their clients that they have trained for 2-3 years and for people that preach so much "core training" no one at this gym has it!! These people have never squatted, deadlifted, pressed weight overhead, etc.

PWGriffin · 08-31-2006, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Good article...

I liked this:

and this:

I can't believe that people still disagree with that. I work for a couple of morons and they always tell me that I need to do more core and ab training with my clients (well actually their clients....since i work for them) because that is most important. I am like "we are doing core...we squat, we deadlift, etc.."......These people think that is ridiculous. I am trainign some of their clients that they have trained for 2-3 years and for people that preach so much "core training" no one at this gym has it!! These people have never squatted, deadlifted, pressed weight overhead, etc.

I try to use free weights as much as possible with my clients and recently added planks and bird dogs to the end of either a circuit, or at the end of a workout. I read where you said that all those endless crunches and leg lifts can worsen someone's already poor posture...really took that to heart. but..

This will make you sick...but I also do make them do prolly one crunching exercise....or bicycles...and it's not because I believe in their effectiveness, but for the reason that if their abs are burning, they think they are doing something right. I try and educate my clients on most subjects and answer their questions correctly, but there is no chance disspelling the myth that ab work in this fashion isn't completely necessary all the time.

I thought you had your own studio out there Funk? Do you work in private or at a larger gym??

mike456 · 08-31-2006, 06:55 PM

Letting the big lifts take care of the core is not enough IMO, unless your doing uni-lateral lower movements, bodyweight movements, otherwise throw in some planks

ubercoach · 08-31-2006, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Letting the big lifts take care of the core is not enough IMO, unless your doing uni-lateral lower movements, bodyweight movements, otherwise throw in some planks

They have my sympathy. You must be a bodybuilder.

In logic what I did is known as arguing from authority. You would be hard pressed to find two greater authorities on the planet than Siff and Spassov, so I wonder what it would take to get your attention. This is the workout my fighter did last night:

1. BACK SQT: 60%X10, 65%x8, 70%x6, 75%x6, 80%x6
2. FS: 60%X5, 70%X5, 75%x5x2
3. CLN PULLS: 95%X5, 100%X5, 105%x4
4. PUSH PRESS: 5 X 5
5. CORE WORK

My fighter did some conditioning training for core because he's a cage fighter who takes knees to the waist. I suggest you do this workout and let us know if you're core doesn't feel worked and if you felt the need to "throw in some planks."

This question is specifically for mike456:
What training modality produces the greatest absolute strength?

Ubercoach

PWGriffin · 08-31-2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Letting the big lifts take care of the core is not enough IMO, unless your doing uni-lateral lower movements, bodyweight movements, otherwise throw in some planks

Sorry dude, hate to be a dick.....well not really.....but you have NO EXPERIENCE. Everything you say is based off shit you read on the internet. While this is a great place to find information....you base opinions on APPLICATION of obtained information. How do you know that big lifts aren't enough? You CAN'T squat!!

TJ Cline · 08-31-2006, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

this has been discussed like 20x's over in the past 2 weeks in like 4 different threads.

Thanks for all the help

TJ Cline · 08-31-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Thanks for all the help

TJ Cline · 08-31-2006, 08:23 PM

2x a week is enough

**P-funk** · 08-31-2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Letting the big lifts take care of the core is not enough IMO, unless your doing uni-lateral lower movements, bodyweight movements, otherwise throw in some planks

no way. the only time i would agree with that is in select cases of either:

a) doing rehab for someone with a pre-existing back injury, back pain or coming back from a back injury in which they need to "re-train" or "re-condition" the muscles to fire properly and loading them is out of the question.

or

b) in a case such as yourself where you have absolutly no coordination, balance or stablity and your flexibility is so bad that it keeps you from doing anything advanced. you need to work on proper firing of those muscles. and even still, that is not so because if you look at the program you are doing, you have squats, and push ups and all compound full body exercises which you are using your "core" musculature all the time.

**P-funk** · 08-31-2006, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

I thought you had your own studio out there Funk? Do you work in private or at a larger gym??

I wish. Someday! I need money first.

I work for a small studio....

But, to drive home the point of this whole discussion (and show the moronic nature of the owners at the gym)....

They had me come in and train this 10yr old kid that they have been trainig for a long time. I get there and none of them are there to tell me what his program is (doesn't matter because they don't write down programs anyway. they don't believe in that and just do whatever they want each time he comes in.....asking what the program is, is just another way for me to get mad at them. they will say do lots of core...which means crunches).

So I get this kid in there....This kid is super super SUPER WEAK! Very uncoordinated. I had him do BW squats (10 reps) and it pretty much buried him. Then, I had him do some planks....he could hold for 3 sec (what the fuck have these people been doing with this kid for this long?)....then he couldn't do a push up...not one...not even girl push ups. I took him over to the cable tower.....he did chest press with 2.5lbs in each hand, and it was a struggle to get 10. Then we do glute bridges....still no core strength, can't control his pelvis at all! So, what do I finish with...CRUNCHES (just to see)....the could could do them until he was blue in the face....did it matter....HELL NO! It didn't translate to a lick of strength in any other area of his life.....What a bunch of crap. And this is how they have been training him for like a year! He has had no results!

**CowPimp** · 08-31-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubercoach

I saved this quote from Mel Siff for two knuckleheads who insist that one needs to train obliques with more than bodyweight resistence. However, after my first post on the subject they fell silent so I've lost track of the thread.
It may be of some benefit here:

ABOMINABLE AB MANIA
by Dr. Mel Siff

It seems as if the abdominals are the favorite target for exercise in the general fitness and aerobics world -- the more, the better! There are probably more abdominal exercise experts than any other types of fitness expert on the fitness circuit (except possibly for stretching. We have incredible abs, astounding abs, absolutely marvelous abs, marvelous midriffs, super abs, sexy abs and another hundred superlatively shaped ab words (all thinly disguised imitations of the book title "Legendary Abs" by my colleague, Jerry Robinson of Los Angeles.)

If we followed the lead and philosophies of the ancient Greeks, we would probably worship Greek gods and goddesses of abdominal perfection, with a couple of Muses, Nymphs or demi-gods thrown in to take care of each striations on our washerboard abs.!

Machines vs. No Machines

What about ab machines? Well, there are also probably more machines on the market aimed at trimming and shaping the abdominal muscles than any other devices out there. Why? The answer is quite simple--marketing and money! Nothing else.

Sure, some of these weird, wonderful or pretty machines are laughably useless, while other are a bit more successful, but the fact remains that virtually no serious physique athlete or competitive bodybuilder has ever relied solely on any form of AB machine to develop his/her exceptional abs. And if they are publicly claiming that they did, they you can be sure in most cases that they are heavily sponsored to say so!

No research project has ever compared matched groups of subjects working on ab machines with others working with 'crunches' on the mat,'cable crunches', jack-knives or leg raises (yes - I am deliberately including some of the exercises appearing on 'hit lists' because some very successful bodybuilders swear by them, believe it or not! I have also encountered some international level bodybuilders who hardly ever do situps or use ab machines, yet they have 'phenomenal' abdominals.

I have taken EMG readings and muscle tension measurements of the abdominal muscles while bodybuilders have been carrying out every imaginable type of ab exercise with and without machines and quite honestly cannot conclude that any machine-aided ab exercise is better than traditional bodybuilding ab exercises done with resistance. In most cases, I note that carefully executed concentration crunches using powerful mental focus and held breath produced greater electrical activity and muscle tension than ab exercise in aerobics or on machines with the traditional breathing in and out patterns.

From the Eastern Experts

After a few research visits to Russia and collaborative projects with Eastern scientists and coaches, I learned that many of their experts regard special abdominal exercises as a total waste of time, because they consider that the trunk muscle are strongly involved either in stabilizing or moving some or other part of the body during other non-isolational exercises.

At one NSCA (National Strength and Conditioning Association) conference in the USA, I remember one of the top Bulgarian strength coaches, Angel Spassov, laughing at questions from American football coaches who wanted to know the best way of doing situps or crunches to 'strengthen' the abs for Football. His response was that if players were squatting, cleaning and pressing, bench pressing, deadlifting and so forth,their trunk muscles were already much more strongly involved than they are during most situps, crunches or machine training.

Ubercoach

Siff didn't really suggest that doing angled crunches, or whatever it was you were suggesting, are sufficient. He seemed to suggest that the core is best trained through movements utilizing coordinated movements like strucutral compound exercises. I like rotational/PNF movements a lot and stabiliztation type exercises like one armed bent rows, one armed bench pressing, plank variations, etc.

mike456 · 08-31-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

no way. the only time i would agree with that is in select cases of either:

a) doing rehab for someone with a pre-existing back injury, back pain or coming back from a back injury in which they need to "re-train" or "re-condition" the muscles to fire properly and loading them is out of the question.

or

b) in a case such as yourself where you have absolutly no coordination, balance or stablity and your flexibility is so bad that it keeps you from doing anything advanced. you need to work on proper firing of those muscles. and even still, that is not so because if you look at the program you are doing, you have squats, and push ups and all compound full body exercises which you are using your "core" musculature all the time.

Yea squats and deads probably are enough for the core, I guess I didn't know that because I never do them

**P-funk** · 08-31-2006, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

Yea squats and deads probably are enough for the core, I guess I didn't know that because I never do them

you squat in each one of your workouts.

**P-funk** · 08-31-2006, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Thanks for all the help

hey, I followed it up with the appropriate links.

mike456 · 08-31-2006, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

you squat in each one of your workouts.

yea but while holding onto something, so that takes out all of the core work, right?

08-16-2006, 08:40 AM	#2
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,374	this has been discussed like 20x's over in the past 2 weeks in like 4 different threads.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

08-16-2006, 08:59 AM	#4
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,374	Big discussion here another discssion here
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

08-16-2006, 04:14 PM	#5
911=InsideJob Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 661	Everyday is fine. I'm not sure if you saw UFC' All Access: Tito Ortiz but he doest hundreds of reps for abs a day. Bruce Lee was also an ab fanatic and trained it daily.
	Good Day

08-16-2006, 08:58 PM	#8
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,405	I think doing any kind of heavy resistance training every day for your abs is moronic. Your trunk muscles are still muscles, and they require time to recover as well.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

08-31-2006, 01:36 PM	#9
ubercoach Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, Ca. Posts: 73	Ab training from a Strength Coach's perspective I saved this quote from Mel Siff for two knuckleheads who insist that one needs to train obliques with more than bodyweight resistence. However, after my first post on the subject they fell silent so I've lost track of the thread. It may be of some benefit here: ABOMINABLE AB MANIA by Dr. Mel Siff It seems as if the abdominals are the favorite target for exercise in the general fitness and aerobics world -- the more, the better! There are probably more abdominal exercise experts than any other types of fitness expert on the fitness circuit (except possibly for stretching. We have incredible abs, astounding abs, absolutely marvelous abs, marvelous midriffs, super abs, sexy abs and another hundred superlatively shaped ab words (all thinly disguised imitations of the book title "Legendary Abs" by my colleague, Jerry Robinson of Los Angeles.) If we followed the lead and philosophies of the ancient Greeks, we would probably worship Greek gods and goddesses of abdominal perfection, with a couple of Muses, Nymphs or demi-gods thrown in to take care of each striations on our washerboard abs.! Machines vs. No Machines What about ab machines? Well, there are also probably more machines on the market aimed at trimming and shaping the abdominal muscles than any other devices out there. Why? The answer is quite simple--marketing and money! Nothing else. Sure, some of these weird, wonderful or pretty machines are laughably useless, while other are a bit more successful, but the fact remains that virtually no serious physique athlete or competitive bodybuilder has ever relied solely on any form of AB machine to develop his/her exceptional abs. And if they are publicly claiming that they did, they you can be sure in most cases that they are heavily sponsored to say so! No research project has ever compared matched groups of subjects working on ab machines with others working with 'crunches' on the mat,'cable crunches', jack-knives or leg raises (yes - I am deliberately including some of the exercises appearing on 'hit lists' because some very successful bodybuilders swear by them, believe it or not! I have also encountered some international level bodybuilders who hardly ever do situps or use ab machines, yet they have 'phenomenal' abdominals. I have taken EMG readings and muscle tension measurements of the abdominal muscles while bodybuilders have been carrying out every imaginable type of ab exercise with and without machines and quite honestly cannot conclude that any machine-aided ab exercise is better than traditional bodybuilding ab exercises done with resistance. In most cases, I note that carefully executed concentration crunches using powerful mental focus and held breath produced greater electrical activity and muscle tension than ab exercise in aerobics or on machines with the traditional breathing in and out patterns. From the Eastern Experts After a few research visits to Russia and collaborative projects with Eastern scientists and coaches, I learned that many of their experts regard special abdominal exercises as a total waste of time, because they consider that the trunk muscle are strongly involved either in stabilizing or moving some or other part of the body during other non-isolational exercises. At one NSCA (National Strength and Conditioning Association) conference in the USA, I remember one of the top Bulgarian strength coaches, Angel Spassov, laughing at questions from American football coaches who wanted to know the best way of doing situps or crunches to 'strengthen' the abs for Football. His response was that if players were squatting, cleaning and pressing, bench pressing, deadlifting and so forth,their trunk muscles were already much more strongly involved than they are during most situps, crunches or machine training. Ubercoach

08-16-2006, 08:43 AM	#3
BigPapaPump68 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,308	I usually work abs 3 times a week and find that it works great for me. Some people are naturally gifted when it comes abs and find that they dont need to work them hard at all for them to show.

08-16-2006, 07:11 PM	#6
dontsurfonmytur Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,013	i do 3 full body worksouts a week and i do abs all 3 workouts. I try to keep my ab work less than 7-9 minutes

08-16-2006, 08:36 PM	#7
Tough Old Man Canine club CEO Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: baja calif, Mexico Posts: 6,933 Photos: 1	How about letting all the weight training take care of the AB'S. One of the best set of AB's I have ever seen was on a guy name LAM and he does no special training for the AB's.

08-31-2006, 06:55 PM	#12
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	Letting the big lifts take care of the core is not enough IMO, unless your doing uni-lateral lower movements, bodyweight movements, otherwise throw in some planks
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,285	Journal

08-31-2006, 08:23 PM	#17
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544	2x a week is enough
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544