Thread: Throwing in the Towel

clients disagreeing with ur training methods?

if their disagreeing with what you do then why are they still paying you to train them? your the trainer tell them to stfu lol.

I like training rich people, they know they don't know shit, that is what they are paying me for.

Obviously you need to explain why you are doing what you are doing and the client has to see a value in it. Frankly, after doing this for years if I run into someone that refuses to deal with their imbalances and just wants to be pushed to the point of exhaustion I'd rather let someone else deal with it. Then I'll fix them and it will cost them more money because they will need months of rehab.

Frankly your boss sounds like a typical trainer not caring about the client as long as they keep buying sessions. If it were me, I'd fire the client and simply tell him that obviously his goals don't mesh with yours and it would be irresponsible of you to continue when he has these obvious problems that he doesn't want fixed. Why stress yourself out when there are lots of people to work with who will appreciate your approach and actually get something out of it? Long term you will feel better and so will the people you work with.

Don't, whatever you do give up the ideal of helping people properly because our industry needs more trainers who actually care.

You can't just quit. Unless you own your own business, you are always going to have to report to someone. And, no matter how well you get along, there are always differences. You just have to learn to work through them.

I wish I had a trainer, teacher or anyone pay that much close attention to detail.
Your boss is an idiot but so are some clients, people like that you just let them do what they want and those who are seriouse I would take more seroiuse

I would suggest that you try, as difficult as it may be, to recognize both sides objectively. Apparently, your boss is a typical business owner who has gotten caught up in the profitability of the business moreso than the qaulity of service he provides. (I fight this battle every day) On the other hand, there is not a damn thing wrong with doing things right. I say you attempt to argue you case/explain your concerns about these 'details' you mentioned, and if this "boss" isn't intellectually capable of understanding your point(s), then he's an idiot, your a professional, and that's that.
One should never compromise one's professionalism, perfectionism, or concern(s) for the product or services that the client/customer receives.....its a no-brainer. To me at least.

Hang In....

I agree with Ponyboy. Your boss sounds like an asshole.

I got into it with my Bosses today also. It led to a shouting match......

they were trying to tell me that I just need to train these people the way they want to be trained and not try and push them to do new things. He then went on to tell me that I am from a different school of training and we are not training elite athletes at this facility and that I can't expect to train these people that way (these people are really coddled at this gym). So I was like "it doesn't matter if they are elite athletes or joe shmo...everyone needs the same type of things." and he says "you are telling me that you would train so and so like you would train an elite athlete??" then I start to yell...."YEA! if you know anything about phyisology....I wouldn't train them with the same volume or intensity but they need the same things.....they need to focus on their local and global muscular systems, they need to do some form of reactive power trianing, they need to enhance their energy systems, they need to work on their stability, they need to have base levels of strength.".....He didn't understand what I was saying.

I concur. The fact that you're trying to rectify the problem shows that you're doing your job. There really is a need for more trainers like you, not more trainers like your boss.

But here's the devil's advocate: Most people go into the gym with a simple goal, such as to lose weight, and feel very good about themselves when they feel they've had a 'good workout.' Your boss is right that the customers will be satisfied with just that, but you have an excellent point in that they're paying for professionalism. It's a tough call, and totally up to you.

Originally Posted by P-funk

I agree with Ponyboy. Your boss sounds like an asshole.

I got into it with my Bosses today also. It led to a shouting match......

they were trying to tell me that I just need to train these people the way they want to be trained and not try and push them to do new things. He then went on to tell me that I am from a different school of training and we are not training elite athletes at this facility and that I can't expect to train these people that way (these people are really coddled at this gym). So I was like "it doesn't matter if they are elite athletes or joe shmo...everyone needs the same type of things." and he says "you are telling me that you would train so and so like you would train an elite athlete??" then I start to yell...."YEA! if you know anything about phyisology....I wouldn't train them with the same volume or intensity but they need the same things.....they need to focus on their local and global muscular systems, they need to do some form of reactive power trianing, they need to enhance their energy systems, they need to work on their stability, they need to have base levels of strength.".....He didn't understand what I was saying.

Your boss sounds EXACTLY like my boss....he is constantly saying we aren't training bodybuilders blah blah...and he is TERRIFIED of deep squats and deadlifts...I mean TERRIFIED. I was showing a friend of his how to squat...he was using pretty light weight and although it wasn't perfect...I was talking him through the set and between sets I repeatedly got under the bar myself and talked the movement as I did it slowly one part at a time...He told his friend not to go that deep and to widen his stance cuz....check it out...."One bad squat and boom, ur outta the game for good." Man I've done a lot of bad squats and deadlifts in my day, trying to get the movement down...don't know about you guys...

My boss doesn't write any kind of program for his clients...he doesn't even write down what he wants to do that day...as in while they are say doin a few minutes on the treadmill before their session....then he doesn't even write down what they did!!!

Later today, after the meeting, I actually said something that you said to me p funk....I told him there was no reason why I couldn't make them sweat and lose weight while doing my best to correct muscular imbalances and spot improper movement patterns...and that I'm never going to be an aerobics instructor.

The client's perception was that we could get more work done if we didn't stop to correct his form...And I think maybe he took me saying we need to work improve on his posture personally...What the client doesn't know is that I know what we are going to do before he gets there and we always finish...if by some chance he is haulin ass and we finish a few minutes early, we stretch more or do some intervals...which hardly happens, as I have 45 minutes with them...

And of course the other shitty trainer that works with me tried to give me advice about correcting the guy's posture (same one who taught me how easy it is to train the "inner" pecs vs. the outter) "do all pulling exercises for 2 weeks, boom, problem solved." Damn I never thought of doing pulling movements...in fact, i do all pressing movements with my clients and we NEVER EVER do legs...

I get in these arguments all the time with my boss.

1) he doesn't understand what I am saying because he is stupid. I am not being cocky or acting like a know it all.....he is just a moron about training.

2) I am not going to stop being a good trainer or de-value my service because he says so. I believe in what I do. I believe in what I have studied and research and I believe in the large amounts of results I have gotten with people time and time again.

3) don't sell yourself out. you have to make the peoepl believe that you are doing them good and you have their best interests at heart. if they don't believe that, then they probably weren't worth training in the first place.


I got in the argument with my boss and he was talking about the guy who trained these people before me and what he did and how they loved it (except for the fact that i now have all these clients that have been training for an entire year and they are still in base levels of fitness and lack any type of functional ability to move)....but, he did what the people wanted....not what they needed....or at least not a combination of the two.

So I told my boss....

"this is why you hire a professional. you realize you have a problem. you don't know how to fix it. so you come and pay me to help get you on the right track and show you the way. these people want to pay me to tell me what they should be doing (how the boss likes it to be). it is like going to the doctor and he says "you have cancer. we have to do this." and you reply "uh no. i don't feel like it.".....

So, my boss replies, "yea, but you can have three different doctors. all are smart. all have a different way to attack the cancer. you are going to choose the one that works best for you."

to which my smart ass reply was....

"EXACTLY! You choose what is best for you! But, Oncologist A is not going to just say "well, i hear ya if you don't want to do that. lets do this other treatment then....even if i don't believe it is optimal." No, he just wont treat the person because he believes that what he has researched, what he knows and what he precives to be true is the best way to do things. I am the same way. I am not going to sell out on my methods, beliefs or ideas just becasue someone wants me to. Why the fuck do I study? Why would I even work on a masters degree? What is the point of me sitting there 6hrs a day reading research? To not apply."


*silence*

My boss is the cocky arrogant one. That's why he won't listen to me about resistance training. Cuz we have different "styles".

I randomly had to train one of his clients...who is doing a bodypart split (not even a decent one) and I chose to do legs...Taught him how to do a REAL squat...totally rocked his fuckin world...next time I showed him how to deadlift...he had to learn pulling 65lbs..and @12 reps he was for real winded..**my "WTF" alert was screaming when I saw him today doing BB curls with 115...the fucker can curl twice his deadlift...oh nevermind..he was SLINGING the weight up while my boss was "spotting" him...**

My boss is helping someone FORCE...CHEAT REPS..and no doubt did some negative curls too...to really get em...

He makes me look like an elite fitness coach.

P, with your education, it must be SUPER frustrating.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

My boss is the cocky arrogant one. That's why he won't listen to me about resistance training. Cuz we have different "styles".

I randomly had to train one of his clients...who is doing a bodypart split (not even a decent one) and I chose to do legs...Taught him how to do a REAL squat...totally rocked his fuckin world...next time I showed him how to deadlift...he had to learn pulling 65lbs..and @12 reps he was for real winded..**my "WTF" alert was screaming when I saw him today doing BB curls with 115...the fucker can curl twice his deadlift...oh nevermind..he was SLINGING the weight up while my boss was "spotting" him...**

My boss is helping someone FORCE...CHEAT REPS..and no doubt did some negative curls too...to really get em...

He makes me look like an elite fitness coach.

P, with your education, it must be SUPER frustrating.

I hate when they say this is your "style". If you are a trainer and you have one "style" then you suck. If you are a trainer that believes that people have one "style" then you suck. People have a methodology or they have a training philosophy.....but, you can't have one "style". My philosophy on training is that "Every person has a limiting factor. Something that is holding them back from achieving higher levels of fitness. Through movement assessment, flexibility and work capacity testing, we determine what that persons limiting factor is. From there, care is taken to design a program to take the individual from a base level, where the limiting factor is addressed and corrected, and advance them to higher levels of fitness through a variety of modalites focusing on strength, power, stabilization, and conditioning.".....Now you tell me how the fuck that doesn't apply to everyone? An athlete or a pencil pushin' secretary.

Don't listen to your boss. he seems like a moron.

P, with your education, it must be SUPER frustrating.

It is and it isn't. In NYC, I had a niche of guys that had the same type of training philosophy as myself and we kind of kept to ourselves. You tend to gravitate towards people that are good, that are knowledgabel and that challenge you to be better and bring your "A" game to the table. That is why, eventualy you have to go out and have your own business. In NYC, I did my own thing, with my own clients. In AZ, I don't know anyone. I am starting over, building a reputation and contacts. So, I have to put up with this bullshit. My hands are tied. But, this is also the reason that I need to persue my own business and get on out of there. Going up to the camp and working with Dale was a real treat. He has a good grasp of training, he has lots of knowledge and he can apply it. It is refreshing to work with someone like that and fun to talk shop with him. That is why we decided to put together our own program. We see the shit that people are shoveling and we thought "we can do this better", and we will.....just takes time to build a business.

It isn't frustrating because I am still learning. I read a shit ton, I try and talk to everyone that is a real pro in this business and get different ideas and feedback. I have a decent knowledge base. I don't know everything BUT, I do know when to keep my mouth shut and listen. I listen to the people that I believe are doing the right thing in this industry.....and then, the people like my boss, I just turn my back to because I know that they know absolutley nothing about what it means to be a true professional in an industry full of morons and riddled in myth.

Originally Posted by P-funk

I get in these arguments all the time with my boss.

1) he doesn't understand what I am saying because he is stupid. I am not being cocky or acting like a know it all.....he is just a moron about training.

2) I am not going to stop being a good trainer or de-value my service because he says so. I believe in what I do. I believe in what I have studied and research and I believe in the large amounts of results I have gotten with people time and time again.

3) don't sell yourself out. you have to make the peoepl believe that you are doing them good and you have their best interests at heart. if they don't believe that, then they probably weren't worth training in the first place.


I got in the argument with my boss and he was talking about the guy who trained these people before me and what he did and how they loved it (except for the fact that i now have all these clients that have been training for an entire year and they are still in base levels of fitness and lack any type of functional ability to move)....but, he did what the people wanted....not what they needed....or at least not a combination of the two.

So I told my boss....

"this is why you hire a professional. you realize you have a problem. you don't know how to fix it. so you come and pay me to help get you on the right track and show you the way. these people want to pay me to tell me what they should be doing (how the boss likes it to be). it is like going to the doctor and he says "you have cancer. we have to do this." and you reply "uh no. i don't feel like it.".....

So, my boss replies, "yea, but you can have three different doctors. all are smart. all have a different way to attack the cancer. you are going to choose the one that works best for you."

to which my smart ass reply was....

"EXACTLY! You choose what is best for you! But, Oncologist A is not going to just say "well, i hear ya if you don't want to do that. lets do this other treatment then....even if i don't believe it is optimal." No, he just wont treat the person because he believes that what he has researched, what he knows and what he precives to be true is the best way to do things. I am the same way. I am not going to sell out on my methods, beliefs or ideas just becasue someone wants me to. Why the fuck do I study? Why would I even work on a masters degree? What is the point of me sitting there 6hrs a day reading research? To not apply."


*silence*

no offense p, but why doesn't your boss just fire you? aren't the shitty trainers who'll just do what their clients want them to do a dime a dozen?

Originally Posted by wilwn

no offense p, but why doesn't your boss just fire you? aren't the shitty trainers who'll just do what their clients want them to do a dime a dozen?

haha...I basically asked him to fire me today. I said, if you don't like then ask me to leave and I will walk out that door.

He wont fire me because a number of the people really like me and like what I have done for them. If he fired me, they would be pissed because they would have no one to train them and he can't train all these people himself. He is just trying to get me to conform to the 50% of the people that are annoying so that I can play nice with them.

Originally Posted by P-funk

haha...I basically asked him to fire me today. I said, if you don't like then ask me to leave and I will walk out that door.

He wont fire me because a number of the people really like me and like what I have done for them. If he fired me, they would be pissed because they would have no one to train them and he can't train all these people himself. He is just trying to get me to conform to the 50% of the people that are annoying so that I can play nice with them.

that's good to hear. at least there are some clients where you work who aren't just fucking around.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

For those of you who don't know I'm a trainer at a private studio and have been for the past 3 months. I was criticized harshly not too long ago for making the stupid comment "Where I'm at I just have to make people sweat and lose weight" as I've heard my boss (who I don't look up to whatsoever) say a hundred times. I took this to heart and made a strong commitment to myself to be a better trainer for my clients and help with much more than then sweating...I began paying closer attention to small details in form and trying to help correct postural issues while helping them achieve their goals...

A client complained to my boss the other day for me paying too much attention to his horribly hunched over, rounded back during every exercise almost...and paying too much attention to his foot activity during medicine ball squats...(heels were almost coming off the ground... left toe would begin to point out as his knee pointed inward and his foot looked to me to be over-pronating, if I in fact understand foot pronation correctly) This, he thought, took away from his workout...basically, me watching him sweat..

Instead of my boss taking my back...he reprimanded me. Told me that I need to make him sweat and lose weight...that's it.

Opinions?? Am I paying too much attention to detail?? Should I ignore little things and just add another aerobic exercise in there to give the illusion they are getting a GREAT workout??? Do any of you other trainers have problems with authority figures? Or clients disagreeing with ur training methods?

Should I just quit until I finish school and can choose better where I want to train?

Dude I would base it on the client... I wouldn't use a blanket decision here. I'd suggest getting a feel for them and going from there. Hell, ask them if they open to suggestion. Don't treat them like dumbasses or be a prick about it if they are. I believe in doing things the right way personally, and in teachings others to do the same, but not if it's going to cause issues in this case...

Can I just say that there is no supplement for expertise and experience. If your clients are too dumb to learn how to do this properly and thereby avoid injury then I really feel for you.

I spent years as a bank manager giving advice to people and you could see they wanted to do things 'their way' depsite the fact it would have cost them a fortune.

My mantra in life is "Dont ask the experts for advice if you're going to ignore them" - it seems basic to me. Personally I have benefited loads from the advice passed on by the PTs on this forum and thank you guys for it.

Just to throw in another two cents, I also find that sometimes you have to trick your clients and not let them know what you are doing. Some people literally don't care about their problems and just want to look good, and I have a couple of clients I have had for years who are like this.

Therefore what I do is give them some of what they like and some of what is good for them and disguise it so they stil feel good about the workout. One woman is a real estate agent and wants to look hot for her clients - she doesn't give a rat's ass that her balance is screwy, her pelvis used to be tilted to one side and her head used to be 5cm forward. I've managed to take care of this stuff while also "working her butt, abs and arms!" (all she ever wants to do) by throwing in postural correction exercise and disguising it with other names or putting her in positions that make it feel like really hard work.

If your client just wants their ass kicked that's fine, but you can still do what you want and then six months later when their back doesn't hurt anymore they suddenly have a moment where they realize how good you really are.

I think we have all had bosses who are tools in the past and I work with a bunch of trainers that make me cringe, but if you stick to what you do the clients, referrals and business will come over time.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Just to throw in another two cents, I also find that sometimes you have to trick your clients and not let them know what you are doing. Some people literally don't care about their problems and just want to look good, and I have a couple of clients I have had for years who are like this.

Therefore what I do is give them some of what they like and some of what is good for them and disguise it so they stil feel good about the workout. One woman is a real estate agent and wants to look hot for her clients - she doesn't give a rat's ass that her balance is screwy, her pelvis used to be tilted to one side and her head used to be 5cm forward. I've managed to take care of this stuff while also "working her butt, abs and arms!" (all she ever wants to do) by throwing in postural correction exercise and disguising it with other names or putting her in positions that make it feel like really hard work.

If your client just wants their ass kicked that's fine, but you can still do what you want and then six months later when their back doesn't hurt anymore they suddenly have a moment where they realize how good you really are.

I think we have all had bosses who are tools in the past and I work with a bunch of trainers that make me cringe, but if you stick to what you do the clients, referrals and business will come over time.

That is a good idea and definitely something I've thought about..At the same time however, I really want my clients to know that I'm bringing a little more to the table...Even though my clients don't ask per se...I even like to educate them a little at times, so they can make better decisions concerning their own health. This is something I will have to learn to deal with I guess...There is, however, a much more lucrative position becoming available for me at another gym in the near future. I think I would be appreciated more there and have a little more freedom in terms of my clients training...


You guys ever have those clients that tell you suddenly that there back/neck/whatever just feels so much better!! and you are like ".......ur back was hurting?? U never told me, but....GREAT!! ALRIGHT!!"

Don't compromise your integrity for a dumbshit who is only in it for the money. You are different; you actually care about your clients. Your boss only cares about how fat the client's wallet is. You can give people a good workout while correcting their imbalances. Throw in some corrective stuff at the beginning of the workout during the warmup (I generally try to hit their weak points for at least a couple sets here) and possibly as active rest in between the tough stuff.

Thankfully where I work they pretty much let me do my thing. I'll be honest though, I do have some give. Certain people I'm more malleable with simply because I'm not in a situation financially to be firing clients. I've also had people tell me I'm very convincing though. I have a lot of people doing lower body work that refused to do it before, for example. I've convinced a lot of people to let me stretch with them more. Anyone that is consistent and does anything they have to do on their own, I get them results. If you put in minimal effort, you get minimal results.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

You guys ever have those clients that tell you suddenly that there back/neck/whatever just feels so much better!! and you are like ".......ur back was hurting?? U never told me, but....GREAT!! ALRIGHT!!"

I love to hear that. If I ever pick up clients from another train, they almost always report their back feels better. When I look at what the other training was doing...

Day 1:
Bench
Curls
More bench
Crunches
Pushups
Crunches
Incline bench

Day 2:
Overhead press
Leg extensions
Seated row
Front raises
Lateral raises
Leg press
Crunches

WTF. No shit your back hurt before.

Originally Posted by JonnyStead

My mantra in life is "Dont ask the experts for advice if you're going to ignore them" - it seems basic to me. Personally I have benefited loads from the advice passed on by the PTs on this forum and thank you guys for it.

I'd like to second that. I always ask for advice on here and am grateful in the quality of the responses I've received during my membership here. Nothing has compared as far as learning important information goes. As a service to those who advise me, I like to use their advice to think up my own programs. I am very appreciative when someone designs a program for me, but it's almost an injustice to them if I just follow it unquestionably. Had I hired them for this purpose, it would be different; but I didnt, and I think I owe it to them to assimilate their advice and make my own programs instead. ...if that makes sense.

Originally Posted by JonnyStead

Can I just say that there is no supplement for expertise and experience. If your clients are too dumb to learn how to do this properly and thereby avoid injury then I really feel for you.

I spent years as a bank manager giving advice to people and you could see they wanted to do things 'their way' depsite the fact it would have cost them a fortune.

My mantra in life is "Dont ask the experts for advice if you're going to ignore them" - it seems basic to me. Personally I have benefited loads from the advice passed on by the PTs on this forum and thank you guys for it.

I feel you there. Unfortunately, this industry is one filled with so much myth and fallacy it is ridiculous. The myth and fallacy is what is prevalent as knowledge, because it makes people think there is some other way to get results besides hard work. When you show them that all they know if a load a horseshit, they don't know how to react, especially when you have dumbshit trainers perpetuating these myths.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

When you show them that all they know if a load a horseshit, they don't know how to react, especially when you have dumbshit trainers perpetuating these myths.

Bingo. If you put me next to my boss and we talked resistance training...the clients would believe him way before they would believe me.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I like training rich people, they know they don't know shit, that is what they are paying me for.

Smart Dave, real smart, open your mouth and see what happens.

So, the first woman I started training, trained with my boss this weekend. He told me that, "She wasn't complaining, but she thought it was time to change up." So, he gave me an idea on what to change. He does super slow reps, a ton fo core stuff. She also said whe wants to do more lower ab stuff. I have told her a million fucking times a burning sensation there doesn;t mean you are burning fat. Anyway, another thing he mentioned was that she felt more of a burn doing his stuff, particularly in the quads. He isolates everything, of course her quads are going to burn more when she's doing leg extensions on the machine she has compared to the boyweight squats she does with me which she can't seem to get right.

Also, she wants me to be "More hands-on". I know what she is referring to here. He will sit there and move her arm, or whatever, where it needs to go every time it moves away from where it is supposed to be, I tell her to do it until she does it right, or I move it for her if she can't figure it out.

I will encounter it one of two ways...

1)I am going to house her on Saturday.

2)I am going to sit her down and tell her to stop fucing with what I am doing.

Either way number 2 is going to happen, but I think it would be funny to do number 1 first.

That's pretty funny dale...I'm the same way with my clients...no forced reps no negatives...I am there to spot them for reasons of safety and proper execution....not to move their arms where I want them to...that's what machines are for, and they suck.

yea, if people fucking pull that bullshit with me, I house the shit out of them, then I yell at them. then they usually shut the fuck up for about 4 weeks.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Smart Dave, real smart, open your mouth and see what happens.

So, the first woman I started training, trained with my boss this weekend. He told me that, "She wasn't complaining, but she thought it was time to change up." So, he gave me an idea on what to change. He does super slow reps, a ton fo core stuff. She also said whe wants to do more lower ab stuff. I have told her a million fucking times a burning sensation there doesn;t mean you are burning fat. Anyway, another thing he mentioned was that she felt more of a burn doing his stuff, particularly in the quads. He isolates everything, of course her quads are going to burn more when she's doing leg extensions on the machine she has compared to the boyweight squats she does with me which she can't seem to get right.

Also, she wants me to be "More hands-on". I know what she is referring to here. He will sit there and move her arm, or whatever, where it needs to go every time it moves away from where it is supposed to be, I tell her to do it until she does it right, or I move it for her if she can't figure it out.

I will encounter it one of two ways...

1)I am going to house her on Saturday.

2)I am going to sit her down and tell her to stop fucing with what I am doing.

Either way number 2 is going to happen, but I think it would be funny to do number 1 first.

Spot reduction is SO ingrained in people it is ridiculous. It apparently seems logical too. FUCK man. Why do people hire trainers if they already know what they want and think they know what they need. Shut the fuck up and listen please...

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Spot reduction is SO ingrained in people it is ridiculous. It apparently seems logical too. FUCK man. Why do people hire trainers if they already know what they want and think they know what they need. Shut the fuck up and listen please...

it's a scary thought, but i'm willing to bet there are a good number of personal trainers out there who actually believe in spot reduction.