lower/upper abs, one muscle?

mike456 · 10-10-2006, 09:45 AM

I have some questions...

are the lower and upper abs seperate muscles? Is it true that the upper abs are trunk flexors, and the lower abs are hip flexors, or do they both do both movements? and are the erectors trunk extensors or hip extensors?

I am asking all of this because of my posture problems, I know I need to strengthen my abs, but don't know if I should be training trunk flexing or hip flexing? Is it possible to have tight upper abs, and weak lower abs

Because I also have a hard time keeping my back arched during deads, so I am thinking this could mean tight upper abs, but it might be just tight hammies.

I realized my posture problem, and my inability to do a squat are 2 different problems, The posture is because of tight/weak muscles, and the inability to squat is because of bad balance/stability. My knee pain is caused by the bad posture, so that is why I need to fix it.

If someone can help me with these problems, I am sure I can find out what I need to stretch/strengthen, Thanks alot.

PWGriffin · 10-10-2006, 10:25 AM

The rectus abdominus is one muscle. When you crunch it is trunk flexion....when you do leg raises the abs tilt the pelvis so the hip flexors can function more efficiently...if I read that correctly.

I would stick to planks and bird dogs....throw in some crunches to tighten up the rectus abdominus if you need to. With an anterior tilt do you find it hard to do crunches??

mike456 · 10-10-2006, 10:35 AM

yea I need to tighten up my abs, because I have an anterior tilt, planks and bird dogs aren't going to do anything for that, although I am doing those to get more stability/balance so I can start squatting. Yea I know crunching is trunk flexion, leg raises is hip flexion, but wich one would you do to fix an anterior tilt? I am guessing crunches, because the leg raises will tighten up my hip flexors even more... Thanks for your response, No I don't find it hard to do crunches.

**P-funk** · 10-10-2006, 10:36 AM

crunches.

mike456 · 10-10-2006, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

crunches.

whats the best set/rep-range to tighten muscles?

**P-funk** · 10-10-2006, 10:47 AM

3 count hold at the top (only a crunch), 2 count lowering.

12-15 reps if you can. if not, work up to it.

**CowPimp** · 10-10-2006, 10:59 AM

Having a hard time keeping your back arched when you squat/deadlift may very will indicate weak spinal extensors, not flexors...

fUnc17 · 10-10-2006, 11:27 AM

tight hamstrings is another possibility, especially if you have a hard time squatting

AKIRA · 10-10-2006, 01:02 PM

Haha! Youve got such a hard on for hamstrings!

AKIRA · 10-10-2006, 01:03 PM

Somehow, I am not pictuing this right.

Anterior tilt=weak abs? Not tight?

mike456 · 10-10-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Having a hard time keeping your back arched when you squat/deadlift may very will indicate weak spinal extensors, not flexors...

how is it possible that I have weak spinal extensors, if I have an anterior tilt? I can arch my back at the top portion, but the lower down I go, the harder it is to keep it arched (keep in mind my deadlfts are stifflegged), I am pretty sure it is tight hammies, erectors, hip flexors, accompanied by weak abs, glutes, but I need to make sure, before I fuck myself even worse, hehe. If someone had tight erectors and tight hammies would they have trouble keeping back arched during a Stifflegged dead? So if what your saying is the my case than that means my abs are tight

mike456 · 10-10-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Somehow, I am not pictuing this right.

Anterior tilt=weak abs? Not tight?

It depends wich way the tilt is

This is the tilt I have (A):

PWGriffin · 10-10-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

how is it possible that I have weak spinal extensors, if I have an anterior tilt? I can arch my back at the top portion, but the lower down I go, the harder it is to keep it arched (keep in mind my deadlfts are stifflegged), I am pretty sure it is tight hammies, erectors, hip flexors, accompanied by weak abs, glutes, but I need to make sure, before I fuck myself even worse, hehe. If someone had tight erectors and tight hammies would they have trouble keeping back arched during a Stifflegged dead? So if what your saying is the my case than that means my abs are tight

my hammies are SUPER tight. There is NO WAY your hammies are tighter than mine I PROMISE....my TIGHT hammies are HONEST and GUARANTEED!!

Seriously, my hammies are really tight and I don't have a problem keeping my back tight during any squat or deadlift. But when you don't round ur back during and SLDL or RDL, it really shortens the stroke...or at least gives such an appearance.

fUnc17 · 10-10-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

my hammies are SUPER tight. There is NO WAY your hammies are tighter than mine I PROMISE....my TIGHT hammies are HONEST and GUARANTEED!!

Seriously, my hammies are really tight and I don't have a problem keeping my back tight during any squat or deadlift. But when you don't round ur back during and SLDL or RDL, it really shortens the stroke...or at least gives such an appearance.

true, i didnt have a problem at all keeping form in either a squat or deadlift. the tight hamstrings cause postural problems, and no matter how "good" your form is, you will eventually get injured

and it seems strength training just compounds the problem by tightening them even further

mike456 · 10-10-2006, 04:48 PM

so what the hell is it thats keepin me from keeping my back arched? Griffin can you keep your back arched on Stiff-legged deads, because those are the ones I do:

mike456 · 10-10-2006, 04:49 PM

click on the pic to make it bigger...

PWGriffin · 10-10-2006, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

so what the hell is it thats keepin me from keeping my back arched? Griffin can you keep your back arched on Stiff-legged deads, because those are the ones I do:

You are still relatively new to weight training. Just because ur erectors might be tight causing an anterior tilt...doesn't mean they are strong. As ur core gets stronger and you develop better motor patterns I'm sure things like that will become easier.

Now I will say this...you may not be able to set the weight down on a stiff dead....keeping the back tight shortens teh stroke. Focus on driving the hips back while keeping the back tight and keeping the weight close to ur body moving straight down....then drive the hips forward back to the standing position. If you are focusing on bending over moreso....it may make it more difficult to keep the back tight.

**CowPimp** · 10-10-2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

how is it possible that I have weak spinal extensors, if I have an anterior tilt? I can arch my back at the top portion, but the lower down I go, the harder it is to keep it arched (keep in mind my deadlfts are stifflegged), I am pretty sure it is tight hammies, erectors, hip flexors, accompanied by weak abs, glutes, but I need to make sure, before I fuck myself even worse, hehe. If someone had tight erectors and tight hammies would they have trouble keeping back arched during a Stifflegged dead? So if what your saying is the my case than that means my abs are tight

The reason I said that is that you seem to connect the rounding of your back in a deadlift with weak abs, which is not necessarily the case. It could be though. Are you reasonably sure you have an anterior pelvic tilt?

**P-funk** · 10-10-2006, 10:07 PM

also, just because you have an anterior tilt, doesn't mean that your errectors can't be weak also. I see tons of people with poor alignment, just because something is tight or overactive, doesn't mean that it is strong as well. If that were the case, the people with rounded shoulders and upper cross syndrome would have some really great bench presses.

fUnc17 · 10-10-2006, 10:23 PM

http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_Chair_Sit3.htm

mike456 · 10-11-2006, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

The reason I said that is that you seem to connect the rounding of your back in a deadlift with weak abs, which is not necessarily the case. It could be though. Are you reasonably sure you have an anterior pelvic tilt?

No I know the the rounding of my back doesnt have to do with weak abs, tight abs would do that. What I was saying is tight hammies is the reason I probably can't keep the back arched. From a pic, 2 people said I have a posterior tilt (one of them were you, hehe)

mike456 · 10-11-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_Chair_Sit3.htm

when I sit on a chair that has no back, my traps start burning like hell, And my back is never straight when I sit, I am always leaning forward (trunk flexed), maybe I do have tight abs

, Would someone with a posterior tilt, when seated (on a chair with no back) have a naturally flexed trunk?

mike456 · 10-11-2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

also, just because you have an anterior tilt, doesn't mean that your errectors can't be weak also. I see tons of people with poor alignment, just because something is tight or overactive, doesn't mean that it is strong as well. If that were the case, the people with rounded shoulders and upper cross syndrome would have some really great bench presses.

i am starting to think I have weak tight abs, maybe I don't have an anterior tilt?

**P-funk** · 10-11-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike456

i am starting to think I have weak tight abs, maybe I don't have an anterior tilt?

can you not go to someone that can help you?

Why are you trying to figure this stuff out on your own? It is hard to assess yourself. You need someone to properly look at you.

mike456 · 10-11-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

can you not go to someone that can help you?

correct

10-10-2006, 09:45 AM	#1
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	lower/upper abs, one muscle? I have some questions... are the lower and upper abs seperate muscles? Is it true that the upper abs are trunk flexors, and the lower abs are hip flexors, or do they both do both movements? and are the erectors trunk extensors or hip extensors? I am asking all of this because of my posture problems, I know I need to strengthen my abs, but don't know if I should be training trunk flexing or hip flexing? Is it possible to have tight upper abs, and weak lower abs Because I also have a hard time keeping my back arched during deads, so I am thinking this could mean tight upper abs, but it might be just tight hammies. I realized my posture problem, and my inability to do a squat are 2 different problems, The posture is because of tight/weak muscles, and the inability to squat is because of bad balance/stability. My knee pain is caused by the bad posture, so that is why I need to fix it. If someone can help me with these problems, I am sure I can find out what I need to stretch/strengthen, Thanks alot.
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	Journal

10-10-2006, 10:35 AM	#3
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	yea I need to tighten up my abs, because I have an anterior tilt, planks and bird dogs aren't going to do anything for that, although I am doing those to get more stability/balance so I can start squatting. Yea I know crunching is trunk flexion, leg raises is hip flexion, but wich one would you do to fix an anterior tilt? I am guessing crunches, because the leg raises will tighten up my hip flexors even more... Thanks for your response, No I don't find it hard to do crunches.
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	Journal

10-10-2006, 10:36 AM	#4
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,630	crunches.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

10-10-2006, 10:47 AM	#6
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,630	3 count hold at the top (only a crunch), 2 count lowering. 12-15 reps if you can. if not, work up to it.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

10-10-2006, 10:59 AM	#7
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Having a hard time keeping your back arched when you squat/deadlift may very will indicate weak spinal extensors, not flexors...
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10-10-2006, 11:27 AM	#8
fUnc17 Drop and give me 100 Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Jersey Shore BJJ Posts: 1,871 Photos: 10	tight hamstrings is another possibility, especially if you have a hard time squatting
	Heres how I train. Strength Edge

10-10-2006, 01:02 PM	#9
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,918 Photos: 3	Haha! Youve got such a hard on for hamstrings!
	6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 360 (11/29) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

10-10-2006, 01:03 PM	#10
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,918 Photos: 3	Somehow, I am not pictuing this right. Anterior tilt=weak abs? Not tight?
	6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 360 (11/29) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

10-10-2006, 04:48 PM	#15
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	so what the hell is it thats keepin me from keeping my back arched? Griffin can you keep your back arched on Stiff-legged deads, because those are the ones I do:
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	Journal

10-10-2006, 04:49 PM	#16
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	click on the pic to make it bigger...
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	Journal

10-10-2006, 10:07 PM	#19
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,630	also, just because you have an anterior tilt, doesn't mean that your errectors can't be weak also. I see tons of people with poor alignment, just because something is tight or overactive, doesn't mean that it is strong as well. If that were the case, the people with rounded shoulders and upper cross syndrome would have some really great bench presses.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

10-10-2006, 10:23 PM	#20
fUnc17 Drop and give me 100 Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Jersey Shore BJJ Posts: 1,871 Photos: 10	http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_Chair_Sit3.htm
	Heres how I train. Strength Edge