Question of Strength

BigDyl · 10-31-2006, 08:43 AM

Good article that looks into "entertainment" exersizes versus exersizes that work.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1314865

**CowPimp** · 10-31-2006, 09:52 AM

I just read that. I enjoyed that article. God I wish some of the trainers at my gym would read the article.

StanUk · 10-31-2006, 10:58 AM

Good article, I cannot believe people have actually tried squats on a swiss ball, thats one of the most retarded things I've ever heard.

Spud · 10-31-2006, 06:39 PM

It was a good read, however I need to point out that the sprinting ladder does work (If it's what I think it is)

I've talked to sprinters who lay a series of progressively further spaced sticks on the ground, and sprint with their feet going between each one. Doing so trains your body to accelerate better (apparently). I think the sprint ladder is supposed to mimic that.

**P-funk** · 10-31-2006, 06:42 PM

I agree with some of it, and I disgaree with other parts. I agree about stability balls and bosu balls and that shit.

I disagree with the cone drills and the agility ladder being a waste of time. This discussion had been drawn out on another board, I and I agree with Dale on this one. Just because sports and an open environment, doesn't mean that you can not get benefit from doing things in a closed environment. The agility ladder can help to teach coordination, the cone drills can help to teach an athlete to apply and absorb force, as well as teach them how to properly create positive angles. If you don't do some of that "teaching", when they are in the open environment (game time), they will have no idea what to do. it would be like saying that practing your basketball shot is stupid because in a game, you rarely have an open shot. So, you should always have to practice with someone in your face. Well.....no.

Double D · 10-31-2006, 06:42 PM

Yeah I would like to see myself doing a squat on a swiss ball. That would be comical.

Seanp156 · 10-31-2006, 08:31 PM

Nice find, I'll have to read it next time I "work."

fufu · 10-31-2006, 09:04 PM

Very interesting read, good post kiki.

**CowPimp** · 10-31-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I agree with some of it, and I disgaree with other parts. I agree about stability balls and bosu balls and that shit.

I disagree with the cone drills and the agility ladder being a waste of time. This discussion had been drawn out on another board, I and I agree with Dale on this one. Just because sports and an open environment, doesn't mean that you can not get benefit from doing things in a closed environment. The agility ladder can help to teach coordination, the cone drills can help to teach an athlete to apply and absorb force, as well as teach them how to properly create positive angles. If you don't do some of that "teaching", when they are in the open environment (game time), they will have no idea what to do. it would be like saying that practing your basketball shot is stupid because in a game, you rarely have an open shot. So, you should always have to practice with someone in your face. Well.....no.

That was kind of my thought on the agility drill talk as well. I would think that training skills in a closed environment should always preceed doing so in an open environment. It makes for a logical progression. Once you are capable of performing the skill under control, then you canadd the challenge of a random and chaotic environment into the mix. Hopefully the skill will be so natural to you by that time that you can execute it properly in such a situation.

Not to mention I would think that the potential for injury in a closed environment would be lower in many cases. Getting injured in training is really not something you want to do, heh.

**P-funk** · 10-31-2006, 09:20 PM

exactly. injury prevention is the main goal of any program (bolye says it, mike clark says it, verstegan says it.....if it is coming from those thre....It is pretty good for me!).

I also agree with the article about Bent Over BB rows, and I will go a step further and add Dr. Ken's comments about how once you have a good amount of rowing strength, being in that prone position, unsupported, and rowing that weight just places to much strain on the lumbar spine. Risk greater than reward.

**CowPimp** · 10-31-2006, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

exactly. injury prevention is the main goal of any program (bolye says it, mike clark says it, verstegan says it.....if it is coming from those thre....It is pretty good for me!).

I also agree with the article about Bent Over BB rows, and I will go a step further and add Dr. Ken's comments about how once you have a good amount of rowing strength, being in that prone position, unsupported, and rowing that weight just places to much strain on the lumbar spine. Risk greater than reward.

Bent rowing is actually something I don't really have many of my clients do. In fact, I've only had one guy do it with any kind of decent load. I love them for myself though. I have to say that I find no problem keeping stable and rowing. I also row lower on the torso to reduce the moment arm from the lumbar spine.

swordfish · 10-31-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Bent rowing is actually something I don't really have many of my clients do. In fact, I've only had one guy do it with any kind of decent load. I love them for myself though. I have to say that I find no problem keeping stable and rowing. I also row lower on the torso to reduce the moment arm from the lumbar spine.

i agree with cowpimp. i ABSOLUTELY LOVE THEM.... without a question of a doubt they are the best back builder out there in my mind. i like doing them heavy and light. i just always make sure my form is perfect

Witchblade · 11-01-2006, 04:55 AM

Meh, bentover barbell rows are horrible IMO. I did them on my 5x5 program, and by the time I was finished with the program, I was pretty sick of it. I'm now doing dumbell rows and they're a lot better, eventhough I'm not a fan of rowing.

Also, it's good to do some unilateral work for your back I think.

SAMIAM · 11-01-2006, 06:09 AM

BB Rows are kind of funny, I don't think anybody DOESN'T hate them at first- I know I did.It wasn't until I started treating Rows the way I would treat my bench that they "clicked".I currently Row 10x3's every other workout which feels great as the weight you can move for just three good reps is great for both rapid strength gains, and keeping "mental burnout" on the exersize at bay(seeing your poundages increase so fast is motivating to say the least).When I then go to a 4x6 for my next workout - I've usually added a considerable amount of weight to what I can do for reps, in good form; and thats always a great feeling...
I also noticed that once I began incorporating deadlifts into each and every workout that in no time at all my lower back was completely "out of the exersize"(Rows) in terms of "feel" and instead the lats , rear delts and rhomboids are where I "feel" it.
I'm open to the idea that different bodies will get hit differently, and that one arm DB rows may be the cat's meow for some but for me personally - nothing hits every single little muscle in my whole back as well as a slow BB row held and squeezed at the top.Just my two cents...

**Dale Mabry** · 11-01-2006, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spud

It was a good read, however I need to point out that the sprinting ladder does work (If it's what I think it is)

I've talked to sprinters who lay a series of progressively further spaced sticks on the ground, and sprint with their feet going between each one. Doing so trains your body to accelerate better (apparently). I think the sprint ladder is supposed to mimic that.

That is a different type of ladder to teach the progressively longer stride involved with accelerating.

To add to what P-funk said. On another board I used an analogy of a basketball shot. All these guys who are for open skills only tend to say that the athlete will do what's natural to them. Think about basketball. Do you think the first person to ever shoot a basketball at a rim shot it exactly how the pros shoot it now? Do you think the first person ever to kick a field goal took 3 steps back and 2 steps to the side? My guess is probably not. I am sure it took trial and error to figure out the best way to do it, and I am sure this didn't happen with 1 person over the course of 1 training session, it developed over the years. So, if you have this knowledge that a certain technique is best to shoot the basketball, are you just going to give a player a ball and tell him to do whatever feels right, or are you going to show him the proper way to save both of you time and prevent the athlete from teaching his body the improper way to do the task. IMO, every time you do something improperly, you not only are wasting your time, you are negating a time that you did it properly.

If you think someone will automatically use what works for them, watch 95% of people lateral shuffle...Most of them hop up in the air rather than drive laterally.

As P and I talked about, some of these guys just argue for the sake of arguing.

10-31-2006, 09:52 AM	#2
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,400	I just read that. I enjoyed that article. God I wish some of the trainers at my gym would read the article.
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10-31-2006, 06:39 PM	#4
Spud Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Hart House! Posts: 753	It was a good read, however I need to point out that the sprinting ladder does work (If it's what I think it is) I've talked to sprinters who lay a series of progressively further spaced sticks on the ground, and sprint with their feet going between each one. Doing so trains your body to accelerate better (apparently). I think the sprint ladder is supposed to mimic that.
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10-31-2006, 06:42 PM	#5
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,230	I agree with some of it, and I disgaree with other parts. I agree about stability balls and bosu balls and that shit. I disagree with the cone drills and the agility ladder being a waste of time. This discussion had been drawn out on another board, I and I agree with Dale on this one. Just because sports and an open environment, doesn't mean that you can not get benefit from doing things in a closed environment. The agility ladder can help to teach coordination, the cone drills can help to teach an athlete to apply and absorb force, as well as teach them how to properly create positive angles. If you don't do some of that "teaching", when they are in the open environment (game time), they will have no idea what to do. it would be like saying that practing your basketball shot is stupid because in a game, you rarely have an open shot. So, you should always have to practice with someone in your face. Well.....no.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

10-31-2006, 06:42 PM	#6
Double D Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 9,867	Yeah I would like to see myself doing a squat on a swiss ball. That would be comical.
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10-31-2006, 08:31 PM	#7
Seanp156 Myostatin Whore Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 6,176 Photos: 11	Nice find, I'll have to read it next time I "work."
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10-31-2006, 10:58 AM	#3
StanUk Light weight! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a galaxy far far away Posts: 679 Photos: 1	Good article, I cannot believe people have actually tried squats on a swiss ball, thats one of the most retarded things I've ever heard.

10-31-2006, 09:04 PM	#8
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 15,637 Photos: 4	Very interesting read, good post kiki.
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10-31-2006, 09:20 PM	#10
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,230	exactly. injury prevention is the main goal of any program (bolye says it, mike clark says it, verstegan says it.....if it is coming from those thre....It is pretty good for me!). I also agree with the article about Bent Over BB rows, and I will go a step further and add Dr. Ken's comments about how once you have a good amount of rowing strength, being in that prone position, unsupported, and rowing that weight just places to much strain on the lumbar spine. Risk greater than reward.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

11-01-2006, 04:55 AM	#13
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 4,148 Photos: 2	Meh, bentover barbell rows are horrible IMO. I did them on my 5x5 program, and by the time I was finished with the program, I was pretty sick of it. I'm now doing dumbell rows and they're a lot better, eventhough I'm not a fan of rowing. Also, it's good to do some unilateral work for your back I think.
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11-01-2006, 06:09 AM	#14
SAMIAM Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 48	BB Rows are kind of funny, I don't think anybody DOESN'T hate them at first- I know I did.It wasn't until I started treating Rows the way I would treat my bench that they "clicked".I currently Row 10x3's every other workout which feels great as the weight you can move for just three good reps is great for both rapid strength gains, and keeping "mental burnout" on the exersize at bay(seeing your poundages increase so fast is motivating to say the least).When I then go to a 4x6 for my next workout - I've usually added a considerable amount of weight to what I can do for reps, in good form; and thats always a great feeling... I also noticed that once I began incorporating deadlifts into each and every workout that in no time at all my lower back was completely "out of the exersize"(Rows) in terms of "feel" and instead the lats , rear delts and rhomboids are where I "feel" it. I'm open to the idea that different bodies will get hit differently, and that one arm DB rows may be the cat's meow for some but for me personally - nothing hits every single little muscle in my whole back as well as a slow BB row held and squeezed at the top.Just my two cents...
SAMIAM Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 48

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