Thread: Helping another friend

Originally Posted by fufu

I have another friend who I started training with and he needs some help in the lower body department. We were doing deadlifts today and his first warm up set of 135x10 was fine, good form. Then he went for 225 and his back was rounding quite a bit. I had him go back down to 135 and it was still rounding. It was strange though, he could set up in a good postion, but once he got it up to about half way his hips would come forward and his back would round atrociously. Any ideas on what his problem is?

Most likely his back is weak. Has he ever done deadlifts before? Any idea what his program looked like at all? Is he rounding at the lumbar spine, or just at the thoracic spine?

if his back is really weak, you might have fatigued it, so going back to the lighter weight may not have helped. Go lighter, get his form solid, get him comfortable, co-ordinated, then load some weights on. Don't want an injury on your hands either.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Most likely his back is weak. Has he ever done deadlifts before? Any idea what his program looked like at all? Is he rounding at the lumbar spine, or just at the thoracic spine?

He said he had not done deadlifts in long time. No idea what his program looks like, I assume in isn't really too in depth or thought out. Not sure if he is rounding his lumbar region, didn't look specifically for that, he may have though.

Originally Posted by slip

if his back is really weak, you might have fatigued it, so going back to the lighter weight may not have helped. Go lighter, get his form solid, get him comfortable, co-ordinated, then load some weights on. Don't want an injury on your hands either.

Right, I had no idea was his lifting experience was. I wasn't really training him, he was just working in with my warm ups and what not. I wasn't oriented to his strength levels. But you are right, form is number one.

If you have no idea of his lifting history, 225 might be too heavy for him. I didn't go up to 225 until ~8-9 months after I started training (consistently).

Originally Posted by Seanp156

If you have no idea of his lifting history, 225 might be too heavy for him. I didn't go up to 225 until ~8-9 months after I started training (consistently).

Well actually he told me he has been lifting on and off since he was 15, he is 23 now. By lifting experience I meant I don't know what sort of things he had done.

I really think his spinal erectors are just weak and have poor endurance. If his first set was fine and he fell apart thereafter, then he has the strength for it, it just can't be sustained for any decent period of time. Keep him light and only progress when he completes the set with uber form.

I trained a female friend of mine who couldn't keep her thoracic spine neutral when doing pile squats with a 15lb dumbbell. I'm talking not even for one single repetition. It was that bad. So, I started her with just bodyweight on the squats for a little bit and combined that with some seated rows (And other stuff like face pulls) for a few weeks until her upper back musculature got up to par. Then I got her back on the pile squats doing significantly more weight, and eventually got her to doing some deadlifts with around 85 after a couple months or so.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I really think his spinal erectors are just weak and have poor endurance. If his first set was fine and he fell apart thereafter, then he has the strength for it, it just can't be sustained for any decent period of time. Keep him light and only progress when he completes the set with uber form.

I trained a female friend of mine who couldn't keep her thoracic spine neutral when doing pile squats with a 15lb dumbbell. I'm talking not even for one single repetition. It was that bad. So, I started her with just bodyweight on the squats for a little bit and combined that with some seated rows (And other stuff like face pulls) for a few weeks until her upper back musculature got up to par. Then I got her back on the pile squats doing significantly more weight, and eventually got her to doing some deadlifts with around 85 after a couple months or so.

Nice must be a good feeling to see progress like that. I'll suggest that he start training lighter. I have him doing facepulls as well actually. The friend who I train consistantly had trouble with deadlifts. I had him start light on rack pulls(because he couldn't keep himself stable pulling from the ground(felt like he would fall over), and worked him up to where he is now - doing 225 for 4 reps with perfect form after only training about 2 months, pretty impressive.

Oh yeah, I just talked to him. He asked if it would be ok to use the back extension machine to help his strength. I told him I heard it wasn't a good idea but I couldn't say why. Wasn't this gone over here at some point? Does it have to do with the loading or something?

You say his hips come forward? Might be strictly a form issue. If his hips come forward it sounds like he's trying to get under it to 'squat' it...is that what it looks like??

Has he tried any other deadlift variants?? Have him try Romanians and watch his back and hips.

Originally Posted by fufu

Oh yeah, I just talked to him. He asked if it would be ok to use the back extension machine to help his strength. I told him I heard it wasn't a good idea but I couldn't say why. Wasn't this gone over here at some point? Does it have to do with the loading or something?

The back extension machines are garbage. You're just hyperextending your spine under load without proper firing of hip musculature for additional support. Deadlifts will probably do the best for him, just stop when the back starts to fatigue.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

The back extension machines are garbage. You're just hyperextending your spine under load without proper firing of hip musculature for additional support. Deadlifts will probably do the best for him, just stop when the back starts to fatigue.

I like back extension benches, as long as you don't hyperextend at the top.

But, I think you are talking about the actual plate loaded machines, which I think suck.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

You say his hips come forward? Might be strictly a form issue. If his hips come forward it sounds like he's trying to get under it to 'squat' it...is that what it looks like??

Has he tried any other deadlift variants?? Have him try Romanians and watch his back and hips.

Yea, RDLs would be good. Use a strict eccentric tempo and an isometric at the bottom to help him learn the form and teach him how to hold his posture properly through out the movement. I think a lot of times people overlook tempo restriction when teaching lifts. I think it is a very important tool.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Is he rounding at the lumbar spine, or just at the thoracic spine?

can you explain what those are? I am guessing one is the trunk, and the other is the hip?

Originally Posted by mike456

can you explain what those are? I am guessing one is the trunk, and the other is the hip?

lumbar spine is your lower back, if he is rounding it, you would see the lumbar spine round out, ie no more lordodic curve/no more neutral spine.

if he is rounding his thoracic spine, his lumbar spine may stay flat or neutral (to an extent), but his upper back will be rouding forward.

Yeah after looking at diagrams of the spine I'd say he was rounding his lumbar as well.

Originally Posted by fufu

Yeah after looking at diagrams of the spine I'd say he was rounding his lumbar as well.

work on his technique and having him push his hips back.

To re-enforce this, I usually have people hold DBs or a med. ball if they are weak) and stand a few inches away from a wall and work on pushing their ass back and bumping their butt into the wall and just moving at the hips and not at the spine. When they can control that, move them a few more inches off the wall. In about 5min. they should have a pretty good RDL. Also, use tempo restrictions and iso's at the bottom to have them feel what the proper posture is.

Originally Posted by P-funk

lumbar spine is your lower back, if he is rounding it, you would see the lumbar spine round out, ie no more lordodic curve/no more neutral spine.

if he is rounding his thoracic spine, his lumbar spine may stay flat or neutral (to an extent), but his upper back will be rouding forward.

oh ok

so I have an excessive lordodic curve, and a rounded thoracic spine (naturally, just when I am standing and looking in the mirror)

Originally Posted by P-funk

lumbar spine is your lower back, if he is rounding it, you would see the lumbar spine round out, ie no more lordodic curve/no more neutral spine.

if he is rounding his thoracic spine, his lumbar spine may stay flat or neutral (to an extent), but his upper back will be rouding forward.

I got the terms down, but I still cant picture a difference.

I am visualizing two pics in my head of the same person rounding his back, but at different points...shit, I just cant picture a difference.

Originally Posted by P-funk

work on his technique and having him push his hips back.

To re-enforce this, I usually have people hold DBs or a med. ball if they are weak) and stand a few inches away from a wall and work on pushing their ass back and bumping their butt into the wall and just moving at the hips and not at the spine. When they can control that, move them a few more inches off the wall. In about 5min. they should have a pretty good RDL. Also, use tempo restrictions and iso's at the bottom to have them feel what the proper posture is.

Yeah that was one thing I told him to do, push his hips back as far as he could on the descent.

I had my other friend do DB RDL's to help him out a while ago, it seemed to work.

I talked to him today and he said he tore a muscle in his back? Not sure if he really did though. He went to the infirmiry here on campus and they diagnosed him with that. I kind of doubt it though. He said his muscles were swollen and were twitching alot. I don't even think they took an xray or anything like that so I'm a bit skeptical. I think he may have irritated some discs and muscles. I told him to ice up and take it easy. Thankfully I was training him and he was just working in with me, or else I'd feel like a big dick. I'm glad I even told him his back was rounding or else he could have got in more serious trouble.