unintentionally stiff-legging it

wilwn · 11-12-2006, 03:17 AM

when one unintentionally stiff legs a convo dead, what is the weak link? is it because of the erectors not being able to maintain an arch, or it is because of the glutes/hammies being too weak to lift up the weight?

**P-funk** · 11-12-2006, 05:11 AM

it is because yout technique is off and you are shooting your hips back to quickly and not pushing with them at all. It isn't neccessarily that they are weak. A lot of guys do it this way though. I wouldn't teach it like that, but some of the best deadlifters appear to prefer it.

wilwn · 11-12-2006, 05:17 AM

well it only tends to happen when i'm lifting near my 1RM. what part of my technique do you think is off?

**P-funk** · 11-12-2006, 06:46 AM

concentrate on pulling less that your 1RM, around 85-90%, and keeping your chest up, leading with your chest and making it rise as your hips do. Once you can get your chest and hips to rise at the saem time, start to increase the weight.

**P-funk** · 11-12-2006, 06:56 AM

Here is a video from an exhibition at the Arnold Classic last year (i was there). Watch the three guys do an 825lb deadlift. three different techniques. Karl Gillingham does it pretty round backed. Pat Patterson shoots his hips a little and does more of an SLDL but his back is pretty solid. Brad Gillingham has great technique in my opinion. He pulls the 825 for a double. Watch how he really gets his chest to rise with his hips and stays in position all the way.

Witchblade · 11-12-2006, 06:56 AM

When I do that, I can pull more weight up, but I get all the power from my back, which is bad for your spine, I think. Also, it doesn't work your legs like convo deads.

I'd concentrate on changing form. A helpful mental note is to tell yourself you're not pulling the weight up, but you're pushing the ground down. That way, you'll use your legs to push the weight up for the first half of the exercise.

**P-funk** · 11-12-2006, 06:59 AM

Here is another video of Brad Gillingham doing 565 on RDl for reps at an exhibition. Take a look at when he lifts the bar off the floor though. Again, good technique pulling from the floor. Hips and chest rise together, back nice and flat.

**P-funk** · 11-12-2006, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

When I do that, I can pull more weight up, but I get all the power from my back, which is bad for your spine, I think. Also, it doesn't work your legs like convo deads.

I'd concentrate on changing form. A helpful mental note is to tell yourself you're not pulling the weight up, but you're pushing the ground down. That way, you'll use your legs to push the weight up for the first half of the exercise.

right, usually on 1Rm attempt some like this happens for most people. Powerlifting isn't really healthy (lol). Sometimes you go for it and reach for something and shit like this happens.

BUT, training is not competition! In training, work with less than the 1RM and work on technique technique technique. At the meet, if you feel extra strong and can push it....then go.

**CowPimp** · 11-12-2006, 10:29 AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with your hips shooting up so long as you keep a neutral spine throughout. My hips definitely start to shoot as I near a 1RM.

ReproMan · 11-12-2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I don't think there's anything wrong with your hips shooting up so long as you keep a neutral spine throughout. My hips definitely start to shoot as I near a 1RM.

Ditto, I was hoping I wasn't the only one.

**P-funk** · 11-12-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I don't think there's anything wrong with your hips shooting up so long as you keep a neutral spine throughout. My hips definitely start to shoot as I near a 1RM.

right, like I said, most people's hips do tend to rise faster as you get to your limit...the flat back is key....That is why I posted that video. The second guy to deadlift is at his max (it was a PR for him) and his hips rose a little quick, but he kept a flat back. Brad was not at his limit and was able to maintain his pulling form for both reps. He is an incredible deadlifter. I recommed his deadlift training video to anyone. It is really great. His for is awesome.

**CowPimp** · 11-12-2006, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

right, like I said, most people's hips do tend to rise faster as you get to your limit...the flat back is key....That is why I posted that video. The second guy to deadlift is at his max (it was a PR for him) and his hips rose a little quick, but he kept a flat back. Brad was not at his limit and was able to maintain his pulling form for both reps. He is an incredible deadlifter. I recommed his deadlift training video to anyone. It is really great. His for is awesome.

Yeah, I liked that showboating he did where he pulled 825 for a double. Totally raw too. That guy would be the wrong motherfucker to piss off at a bar, heh.

wilwn · 11-12-2006, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

concentrate on pulling less that your 1RM, around 85-90%, and keeping your chest up, leading with your chest and making it rise as your hips do. Once you can get your chest and hips to rise at the saem time, start to increase the weight.

about how many RMs is 85-90%?

and also, why does shooting of the hips tend to occur near 1RMs?

**CowPimp** · 11-12-2006, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwn

about how many RMs is 85-90%?

and also, why does shooting of the hips tend to occur near 1RMs?

85% is something like your 5-6RM; 90% is something like your 3-4RM. Form is generally just harder to maintain as you approach failure. Your body just tries to get the job done; it doesn't think, "Oh, my chance of getting injured will increase if I do it this way. I better keep good form." It just does whatever the fuck it has to.

wilwn · 11-13-2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

85% is something like your 5-6RM; 90% is something like your 3-4RM. Form is generally just harder to maintain as you approach failure. Your body just tries to get the job done; it doesn't think, "Oh, my chance of getting injured will increase if I do it this way. I better keep good form." It just does whatever the fuck it has to.

doesn't that imply stiff-legging it is more efficient (but less safe obviously)?

**CowPimp** · 11-13-2006, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwn

doesn't that imply stiff-legging it is more efficient (but less safe obviously)?

For some maybe, but I actually don't think so. It also has to do with the fact that proper form is simply harder to maintain against more resistance. It might be that your body perceives it as being easier to "loosen up" because less energy is required since you don't have to expend it maintaining good posture. Your body doesn't realize that there will be a leverage advantage if it were to maintain proper position throughout the pull.

This is obviously speculation though.

wilwn · 11-13-2006, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

For some maybe, but I actually don't think so. It also has to do with the fact that proper form is simply harder to maintain against more resistance. It might be that your body perceives it as being easier to "loosen up" because less energy is required since you don't have to expend it maintaining good posture. Your body doesn't realize that there will be a leverage advantage if it were to maintain proper position throughout the pull.

This is obviously speculation though.

so when one loosens up, so to speak, is it the hams/glutes that are being lazy or the erectors?

**CowPimp** · 11-13-2006, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwn

so when one loosens up, so to speak, is it the hams/glutes that are being lazy or the erectors?

It could be a combination of things. It could start by a loss of rigidity in the spinal erectors that begins the descent forward, but can't be saved by the musculature that posteriorly tilts the pelvis (Primarily the glutes) until the leverage becomes more favorable at the top end of the movement.

It could be a weakness in the scapular retractors that lets the shoulders drop forward too much, leverage becomes less favorable, and then the spinal erectors and pelvic/core stabilizers can't keep things steady in light of the less than favorable biomechanical position.

As you can see, anything up and down the kinetic chain can affect other parts of it.

wilwn · 11-13-2006, 07:02 PM

so today i made a conscious effort to have my chest rise at the same time as my hips, and the bar was literally dragging up my thigh. is that what's supposed to happen?

**CowPimp** · 11-13-2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwn

so today i made a conscious effort to have my chest rise at the same time as my hips, and the bar was literally dragging up my thigh. is that what's supposed to happen?

Yes, that happens frequently. I scrape up my shins pretty good too a lot of times.

wilwn · 11-13-2006, 08:29 PM

the shin scraping is normal me too. but is the bar suppose to drag up my thighs too?

**CowPimp** · 11-13-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwn

the shin scraping is normal me too. but is the bar suppose to drag up my thighs too?

I've seen it done like that.

wilwn · 11-15-2006, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

For some maybe, but I actually don't think so. It also has to do with the fact that proper form is simply harder to maintain against more resistance. It might be that your body perceives it as being easier to "loosen up" because less energy is required since you don't have to expend it maintaining good posture. Your body doesn't realize that there will be a leverage advantage if it were to maintain proper position throughout the pull.

This is obviously speculation though.

awwww, that makes a lot of sense. do you have any specific tips to help ensure that the shoulders and hip rise at the same time?

**CowPimp** · 11-15-2006, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwn

awwww, that makes a lot of sense. do you have any specific tips to help ensure that the shoulders and hip rise at the same time?

Using mental techniques like driving your head into your traps as you pull can help, making sure your butt is a little lower to start, and performing clusters of singles so that you can work at a fairly high intensity without pushing your 1RM helps as well.

wilwn · 11-15-2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Using mental techniques like driving your head into your traps as you pull can help, making sure your butt is a little lower to start, and performing clusters of singles so that you can work at a fairly high intensity without pushing your 1RM helps as well.

i think consciously thrusting forward by driving with the glutes has helped.

**Dale Mabry** · 11-15-2006, 07:37 PM

I hope John H. doesn't come upon this thread on accident.

11-12-2006, 03:17 AM	#1
wilwn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 198	unintentionally stiff-legging it when one unintentionally stiff legs a convo dead, what is the weak link? is it because of the erectors not being able to maintain an arch, or it is because of the glutes/hammies being too weak to lift up the weight?
wilwn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 198

11-12-2006, 05:11 AM	#2
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,439	it is because yout technique is off and you are shooting your hips back to quickly and not pushing with them at all. It isn't neccessarily that they are weak. A lot of guys do it this way though. I wouldn't teach it like that, but some of the best deadlifters appear to prefer it.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

11-12-2006, 05:17 AM	#3
wilwn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 198	well it only tends to happen when i'm lifting near my 1RM. what part of my technique do you think is off?
wilwn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 198

11-12-2006, 06:46 AM	#4
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,439	concentrate on pulling less that your 1RM, around 85-90%, and keeping your chest up, leading with your chest and making it rise as your hips do. Once you can get your chest and hips to rise at the saem time, start to increase the weight.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

11-12-2006, 06:56 AM	#5
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,439	Here is a video from an exhibition at the Arnold Classic last year (i was there). Watch the three guys do an 825lb deadlift. three different techniques. Karl Gillingham does it pretty round backed. Pat Patterson shoots his hips a little and does more of an SLDL but his back is pretty solid. Brad Gillingham has great technique in my opinion. He pulls the 825 for a double. Watch how he really gets his chest to rise with his hips and stays in position all the way.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

11-12-2006, 06:56 AM	#6
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 4,365 Photos: 2	When I do that, I can pull more weight up, but I get all the power from my back, which is bad for your spine, I think. Also, it doesn't work your legs like convo deads. I'd concentrate on changing form. A helpful mental note is to tell yourself you're not pulling the weight up, but you're pushing the ground down. That way, you'll use your legs to push the weight up for the first half of the exercise.
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11-12-2006, 06:59 AM	#7
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,439	Here is another video of Brad Gillingham doing 565 on RDl for reps at an exhibition. Take a look at when he lifts the bar off the floor though. Again, good technique pulling from the floor. Hips and chest rise together, back nice and flat.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

11-12-2006, 10:29 AM	#9
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,405	I don't think there's anything wrong with your hips shooting up so long as you keep a neutral spine throughout. My hips definitely start to shoot as I near a 1RM.
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11-13-2006, 07:02 PM	#19
wilwn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 198	so today i made a conscious effort to have my chest rise at the same time as my hips, and the bar was literally dragging up my thigh. is that what's supposed to happen?
wilwn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 198

11-13-2006, 08:29 PM	#21
wilwn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 198	the shin scraping is normal me too. but is the bar suppose to drag up my thighs too?
wilwn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 198

11-15-2006, 07:37 PM	#26
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,845 Photos: 10	I hope John H. doesn't come upon this thread on accident.