The Push/Pull Connection: A question for those with knowledge

oaktownboy · 12-20-2006, 05:43 PM

because basic chest movements involve the triceps (push) and basic back movements involve the biceps (pull), why do most people recommend training chest/tris and back/bis on the same day? since u are using the smaller muscle involuntarily (or secondary), why not train the smaller muscle on a different day when you have not already indirectly exerted it during the heavier muscle day? I mean, since u have inadvertently taxed the tris during chest day, assuming u benched pressed, and bis during back day(rows,pulldowns/pullups), why not train them separately on a different day when u will have more energy to devote to their growth (such as chest/bis one day, back/tris another)?

oaktownboy · 12-20-2006, 08:33 PM

anyone?

Bernie2 · 12-20-2006, 08:34 PM

Good question. I like doing all upper body including back in the same day. Usually a little heavier with the multiple joint lifts and lighter with single joint lifts. I keep it around 50 minutes to 1 hour. Don't like lifting upper body more than 2 days a week because no matter which lifts you do upper body you tend to stimulate other muscles. I prefer total rest to let em grow. I can only assume that they work the muscle group they have already worked partially because they want to minimize the number of times in the week they work that muscle. When they work them they want to workem good. Don't know if that helps you any but there is my 2 cents.

**P-funk** · 12-20-2006, 08:46 PM

I just think that doing something like excessive bicep work is a waste of time for most trainees. it has very little density, they get hit will pulling movements and most people aren't advanced enough (or as advanced as they think they are) to half to do lots of isolation/specilization work (save for pro bb'ers). I would rather concentrate on my pulling and pushing movements and moving as much weight as possible, and then, if I have time I may do some curls and pressdowns (rarely. although lately I have done 2 sets at the end of each of my uper body workouts).

I think there are more important things to focus on in a workout (when we don't have that much time anyway) than biceps and triceps.

**P-funk** · 12-20-2006, 08:46 PM

nice avi by the way.

oaktownboy · 12-20-2006, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I just think that doing something like excessive bicep work is a waste of time for most trainees. it has very little density, they get hit will pulling movements and most people aren't advanced enough (or as advanced as they think they are) to half to do lots of isolation/specilization work (save for pro bb'ers). I would rather concentrate on my pulling and pushing movements and moving as much weight as possible, and then, if I have time I may do some curls and pressdowns (rarely. although lately I have done 2 sets at the end of each of my uper body workouts).

I think there are more important things to focus on in a workout (when we don't have that much time anyway) than biceps and triceps.

right, but ur workouts are more concerned with the powerlifting aspect. The bodybuilder does not care so much about the poundage as the end result (how he/she looks in the mirror). I also assume the bodybuilders who visit this site aren't your usual trainees and are fully interested in developing their body to the max. So, from a purely physical standpoint, why not do chest/bis and back/tris so as to give the biceps and triceps the attention they deserve?

**P-funk** · 12-20-2006, 09:03 PM

regarless of whether I am concerned with strength or hypertrophy......you are missing what I am saying.

As I said in my first post:

99.9% of the peopel training don't need to specialize. You arne't that advanced. They are an average person with average genetics. They aren't pro BB'ers, who are the top of the food chain so to speak.

Work on getting big all over and specialize later in life.

PWGriffin · 12-20-2006, 09:10 PM

P funk is right...

Also, the arm musculature relatively small, and mostly meant for assisting larger muscles in gross compound movements...meaning they will grow in proportion to the larger musculature in the body. (this is why p funk said get big all over)

To answer the original question, most of us on this board believe in training movements, not 'bodyparts'. So that is one reason you may not get the answer you are looking for on this site. But to better answer the original question, If I was to do isolation work...I would work the muscle that's already being worked. That way it doesn't need so much attention...it's like getting more bang for your buck. And if you did a chest/bi's back/tri's legs shoulders/arms or whatever split...you will find the same muscles being worked almost every time you step foot in the gym....which IMO isn't very wise.

oaktownboy · 12-20-2006, 09:10 PM

ok. suppose u r a pro..would my reasoning for the chest/bi and back/tri split make sense?

**P-funk** · 12-20-2006, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oaktownboy

ok. suppose u r a pro..would my reasoning for the chest/bi and back/tri split make sense?

maybe, but then you would have to look at it from the stand point that......if you train your chest one day, the triceps get pretty hit with those exercise. To come back and then train them again may be overkill.

everything works but nothing works forever. You need to learn to manipulate training variables to work in your favor.

slip · 12-20-2006, 09:57 PM

ive got to disagree with this "don't worry about training arms" business.

Yes, focus on the major muscle groups and getting overall size.

But, there is nothing wrong with giving the arms a touch up as well. On my first bulk I trained arms a lot more than i have in the last 2 years, and guess what - they were bigger then, while still being in proportion. They were done at the end of an upper body session.

oaktownboy - measure yourself accurately (with the help of another person, and make sure you measure in the same place later on) and do a month of chest/tri back/bi training, then try chest/bi, back/tri for the same period and see what difference you get.

I personally don't like the chest/bi trainig as it almost dicates when you work out, you cant do the workouts too close together, otherwise your tri's wont be recovered for the chest session, and vice versa.

**P-funk** · 12-20-2006, 10:05 PM

I didn't say don't do them....I said, they don't need special focus. You should rely on working large movements as the bulk of your training.

slip · 12-20-2006, 10:36 PM

There are definately more important things to focus on. But if you want bigger arms, then you need to work on them. I was focusing on your point of "if you want to get big all over" - if you want that, you need calves, forearms, arms, shoulders, chest, quad/ham etc etc. Big back, femur section, and chest with little arms and calves would just look silly.

oaktownboy - it comes down to doing chest/bi may give you a chance to really smash bi's that day, but then you have to wait for them to recover till you can do a back workout without the worked biceps compromising it. If your tris get hit during chest, then you just need to finish them off, and isnt hitting them really hard giving them the "attention they deserve" as you put it?

**Gazhole** · 12-21-2006, 01:17 AM

After a good session of Chin Ups and heavy Rows, my biceps are generally fried anyways. After a good workout of compound movements, 3 sets of curls plonked on the end arent really gonna do much for you.

LIke P said, if you want to put arm isolation in, knock yourself out. But its not as important as big compound movements.

oaktownboy · 12-21-2006, 02:23 AM

the point of my thread was to try to understand why they were grouped together. i am already big. i am not a newbie for those not familiar with who I am. but to not train arms seems ludicrious.I wanted an example of a healthy split for a bodybuilder who was trying to put on more size while adding the smallest amount of bf possible.

oaktownboy · 12-21-2006, 02:37 AM

when i was on a bulk for my first serious cycle...i did Day 1:chest/bis/calves,
Day 2:back/tris/shoulders Day 3:Rest Day 4:Hams, quads, glutes/forearms

i wanted to see what more advanced cycles people on this board (like gopro, P, and others) took once their bodies became accustomed to the standard cycles such as the one i ran

**Gazhole** · 12-21-2006, 06:20 AM

Well for one thing, its not all about what split youre using. You could use the same basic split for ages as long as you were manipulating the other variables like intensity, volume, rest intervals, density etc.

Though i think the reason push/pull movements are grouped together is so you dont overtrain certain muscle groups. If youre doing a split like:

1 - Biceps/Chest
2 - Shoulders/Legs
3 - Tris/Back

Or whatever, you are using your shoulders and tris 3 times a week, where you could do all three in one session by grouping the exercises together under "Push" and give them some time to heal. If youre hitting muscles over and over again, youre just gonna burn them out.

If youve hit a wall in your training, strength wise or size wise, then it might just be a case of looking at starting some form of periodization as well as changing what split youre trying. Gopros PRRS workouts are often structured as body part splits, but because theyre heavily periodized they work very well.

Maybe you need to look at other things that contribute, like your diet/the amount of rest etc aswell. Especially if youre going for size, diet is obviously paramount.

dontsurfonmytur · 12-21-2006, 12:19 PM

i've been doing full body for a while now, all differnt kinds of it.
and im thinking about trying parts or a different split that will include more isolation work. Tito ortiz, the mma fighter, when eh trains for a fight, he will work one muscle group per day, i know he is probalby a gifted athlete, but he trains like 4-5 times a day and one time being weights (one body part). But then again he isnt training for hypertrophy im pretty sure. But i still think u get some kind of hypertrophy if u have enough cals.

oaktownboy · 12-21-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Well for one thing, its not all about what split youre using. You could use the same basic split for ages as long as you were manipulating the other variables like intensity, volume, rest intervals, density etc.

Though i think the reason push/pull movements are grouped together is so you dont overtrain certain muscle groups. If youre doing a split like:

1 - Biceps/Chest
2 - Shoulders/Legs
3 - Tris/Back

Or whatever, you are using your shoulders and tris 3 times a week, where you could do all three in one session by grouping the exercises together under "Push" and give them some time to heal. If youre hitting muscles over and over again, youre just gonna burn them out.

If youve hit a wall in your training, strength wise or size wise, then it might just be a case of looking at starting some form of periodization as well as changing what split youre trying. Gopros PRRS workouts are often structured as body part splits, but because theyre heavily periodized they work very well.

Maybe you need to look at other things that contribute, like your diet/the amount of rest etc aswell. Especially if youre going for size, diet is obviously paramount.

thank you..that was the explanation I was looking for. now I understand

PWGriffin · 12-21-2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oaktownboy

thank you..that was the explanation I was looking for. now I understand

I said the same shit...

Quote:

i've been doing full body for a while now, all differnt kinds of it.
and im thinking about trying parts or a different split that will include more isolation work. Tito ortiz, the mma fighter, when eh trains for a fight, he will work one muscle group per day, i know he is probalby a gifted athlete, but he trains like 4-5 times a day and one time being weights (one body part). But then again he isnt training for hypertrophy im pretty sure. But i still think u get some kind of hypertrophy if u have enough cals.

Do you really think tito ortiz knows dick about resistance training? If you want to look to people for direction, look at elite trainers and fitness coaches, the people that know what they are doing and have credentials and scientific data to back them up.

leg_press · 12-21-2006, 06:10 PM

Isnt doing chest/tris back/bis about pre-exhausting the muscle, the tris dont do alot of work when you bench if you focus on pushing the weight up using your chest and the same with your bis if you focus on moving weight with your back, tensing your lower back to lift the weight when you deadlift etc?

**Gazhole** · 12-21-2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oaktownboy

thank you..that was the explanation I was looking for. now I understand

No problem.

Bernie2 · 12-21-2006, 07:56 PM

I like doing 2 sets of higher reps like a set of 21s and a set of heavier 10-12 with my single joint movements. I usually do lower reps and higher weight for maximal fiber recruitment with the multijoint lifts. I try to stimulate the fast twitch with lifting heavy and slow twitch oxidative fibers with higher rep single joint lifts. I like to workem both to get maximum size gains. Workem hard then gotta letem grow. I once cut out bicept isolation lifting and I got smaller. I think it depends on your muscle make up how your respond to working out. I think I am more slow twitch fiber type. Takes time to find what works best for you. Experiment. Live and learn.

KarlW · 12-22-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

I once cut out bicept isolation lifting and I got smaller

You mean your biceps got smaller?

AKIRA · 12-22-2006, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Or whatever, you are using your shoulders and tris 3 times a week, where you could do all three in one session by grouping the exercises together under "Push" and give them some time to heal. If youre hitting muscles over and over again, youre just gonna burn them out.

Thats what I was going to say and its the perfect answer. Sorry PWG, I didnt see it!

However, I like this thread as it does ask good questions.

Arm training isnt frowned upon depending on your program. For instance, I saw a trainer 2 days ago that did 2 compound pulls then 3 curling exercises. See the problem? And this asshole is a TRAINER (and no he doesnt juice).

Ive done isolation movements at the end of my compound days, but they were maybe 2 exercises (1 bi/1 tri) and 2 sets each. In other words, they are low volume. I also do it cuz my arms seem to be lacking.

Gaz said another good word...Periodize.

KarlW · 12-22-2006, 10:18 AM

Arm training is nothing to be frowned upon. However, for the newbie, or even more experienced lifter who asks "What can I do training wise to get bigger?" the answer is almost always NOT "Train your arms more".

If someone asks "My triceps seem to lacking in size and strength, what can I do?" Then, of course some specific tricep work may be called for.
As for the chest/bi and back/tri question it is a matter of personal choice. Although the chest/bi split does imply that the smaller muscle groups get more attention than a back/bi split, and for most people it just isn't necessary.

12-20-2006, 05:43 PM	#1
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,392	The Push/Pull Connection: A question for those with knowledge because basic chest movements involve the triceps (push) and basic back movements involve the biceps (pull), why do most people recommend training chest/tris and back/bis on the same day? since u are using the smaller muscle involuntarily (or secondary), why not train the smaller muscle on a different day when you have not already indirectly exerted it during the heavier muscle day? I mean, since u have inadvertently taxed the tris during chest day, assuming u benched pressed, and bis during back day(rows,pulldowns/pullups), why not train them separately on a different day when u will have more energy to devote to their growth (such as chest/bis one day, back/tris another)?

12-20-2006, 08:34 PM	#3
Bernie2 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 48	Good question. I like doing all upper body including back in the same day. Usually a little heavier with the multiple joint lifts and lighter with single joint lifts. I keep it around 50 minutes to 1 hour. Don't like lifting upper body more than 2 days a week because no matter which lifts you do upper body you tend to stimulate other muscles. I prefer total rest to let em grow. I can only assume that they work the muscle group they have already worked partially because they want to minimize the number of times in the week they work that muscle. When they work them they want to workem good. Don't know if that helps you any but there is my 2 cents.
Bernie2 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 48

12-20-2006, 08:46 PM	#4
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,645	I just think that doing something like excessive bicep work is a waste of time for most trainees. it has very little density, they get hit will pulling movements and most people aren't advanced enough (or as advanced as they think they are) to half to do lots of isolation/specilization work (save for pro bb'ers). I would rather concentrate on my pulling and pushing movements and moving as much weight as possible, and then, if I have time I may do some curls and pressdowns (rarely. although lately I have done 2 sets at the end of each of my uper body workouts). I think there are more important things to focus on in a workout (when we don't have that much time anyway) than biceps and triceps.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

12-20-2006, 08:46 PM	#5
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,645	nice avi by the way.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

12-20-2006, 09:03 PM	#7
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,645	regarless of whether I am concerned with strength or hypertrophy......you are missing what I am saying. As I said in my first post: 99.9% of the peopel training don't need to specialize. You arne't that advanced. They are an average person with average genetics. They aren't pro BB'ers, who are the top of the food chain so to speak. Work on getting big all over and specialize later in life.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

12-20-2006, 08:33 PM	#2
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,392	anyone?

12-20-2006, 09:10 PM	#9
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,392	ok. suppose u r a pro..would my reasoning for the chest/bi and back/tri split make sense?

12-20-2006, 09:57 PM	#11
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346	ive got to disagree with this "don't worry about training arms" business. Yes, focus on the major muscle groups and getting overall size. But, there is nothing wrong with giving the arms a touch up as well. On my first bulk I trained arms a lot more than i have in the last 2 years, and guess what - they were bigger then, while still being in proportion. They were done at the end of an upper body session. oaktownboy - measure yourself accurately (with the help of another person, and make sure you measure in the same place later on) and do a month of chest/tri back/bi training, then try chest/bi, back/tri for the same period and see what difference you get. I personally don't like the chest/bi trainig as it almost dicates when you work out, you cant do the workouts too close together, otherwise your tri's wont be recovered for the chest session, and vice versa.
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346

12-20-2006, 10:05 PM	#12
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,645	I didn't say don't do them....I said, they don't need special focus. You should rely on working large movements as the bulk of your training.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

12-20-2006, 10:36 PM	#13
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346	There are definately more important things to focus on. But if you want bigger arms, then you need to work on them. I was focusing on your point of "if you want to get big all over" - if you want that, you need calves, forearms, arms, shoulders, chest, quad/ham etc etc. Big back, femur section, and chest with little arms and calves would just look silly. oaktownboy - it comes down to doing chest/bi may give you a chance to really smash bi's that day, but then you have to wait for them to recover till you can do a back workout without the worked biceps compromising it. If your tris get hit during chest, then you just need to finish them off, and isnt hitting them really hard giving them the "attention they deserve" as you put it?
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346

12-21-2006, 01:17 AM	#14
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 6,535 Photos: 18	After a good session of Chin Ups and heavy Rows, my biceps are generally fried anyways. After a good workout of compound movements, 3 sets of curls plonked on the end arent really gonna do much for you. LIke P said, if you want to put arm isolation in, knock yourself out. But its not as important as big compound movements.
	http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 02/12/08 "Do i not like that? No, i do not not like that, i LIKE that!"

12-21-2006, 02:23 AM	#15
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,392	the point of my thread was to try to understand why they were grouped together. i am already big. i am not a newbie for those not familiar with who I am. but to not train arms seems ludicrious.I wanted an example of a healthy split for a bodybuilder who was trying to put on more size while adding the smallest amount of bf possible.

12-21-2006, 02:37 AM	#16
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,392	when i was on a bulk for my first serious cycle...i did Day 1:chest/bis/calves, Day 2:back/tris/shoulders Day 3:Rest Day 4:Hams, quads, glutes/forearms i wanted to see what more advanced cycles people on this board (like gopro, P, and others) took once their bodies became accustomed to the standard cycles such as the one i ran

12-21-2006, 06:20 AM	#17
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 6,535 Photos: 18	Well for one thing, its not all about what split youre using. You could use the same basic split for ages as long as you were manipulating the other variables like intensity, volume, rest intervals, density etc. Though i think the reason push/pull movements are grouped together is so you dont overtrain certain muscle groups. If youre doing a split like: 1 - Biceps/Chest 2 - Shoulders/Legs 3 - Tris/Back Or whatever, you are using your shoulders and tris 3 times a week, where you could do all three in one session by grouping the exercises together under "Push" and give them some time to heal. If youre hitting muscles over and over again, youre just gonna burn them out. If youve hit a wall in your training, strength wise or size wise, then it might just be a case of looking at starting some form of periodization as well as changing what split youre trying. Gopros PRRS workouts are often structured as body part splits, but because theyre heavily periodized they work very well. Maybe you need to look at other things that contribute, like your diet/the amount of rest etc aswell. Especially if youre going for size, diet is obviously paramount.
	http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 02/12/08 "Do i not like that? No, i do not not like that, i LIKE that!"

12-21-2006, 12:19 PM	#18
dontsurfonmytur Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,007	i've been doing full body for a while now, all differnt kinds of it. and im thinking about trying parts or a different split that will include more isolation work. Tito ortiz, the mma fighter, when eh trains for a fight, he will work one muscle group per day, i know he is probalby a gifted athlete, but he trains like 4-5 times a day and one time being weights (one body part). But then again he isnt training for hypertrophy im pretty sure. But i still think u get some kind of hypertrophy if u have enough cals.

12-21-2006, 06:10 PM	#21
leg_press Starting a fresh Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: England United Kingdom Posts: 1,138 Photos: 4	Isnt doing chest/tris back/bis about pre-exhausting the muscle, the tris dont do alot of work when you bench if you focus on pushing the weight up using your chest and the same with your bis if you focus on moving weight with your back, tensing your lower back to lift the weight when you deadlift etc?
	"Lift big, eat big, rest big" "Rome wasnt built in a day" "Go heavy or go home."

12-21-2006, 07:56 PM	#23
Bernie2 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 48	I like doing 2 sets of higher reps like a set of 21s and a set of heavier 10-12 with my single joint movements. I usually do lower reps and higher weight for maximal fiber recruitment with the multijoint lifts. I try to stimulate the fast twitch with lifting heavy and slow twitch oxidative fibers with higher rep single joint lifts. I like to workem both to get maximum size gains. Workem hard then gotta letem grow. I once cut out bicept isolation lifting and I got smaller. I think it depends on your muscle make up how your respond to working out. I think I am more slow twitch fiber type. Takes time to find what works best for you. Experiment. Live and learn.
Bernie2 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 48

12-22-2006, 10:18 AM	#26
KarlW My Little Man Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Oz Posts: 1,030	Arm training is nothing to be frowned upon. However, for the newbie, or even more experienced lifter who asks "What can I do training wise to get bigger?" the answer is almost always NOT "Train your arms more". If someone asks "My triceps seem to lacking in size and strength, what can I do?" Then, of course some specific tricep work may be called for. As for the chest/bi and back/tri question it is a matter of personal choice. Although the chest/bi split does imply that the smaller muscle groups get more attention than a back/bi split, and for most people it just isn't necessary. Last edited by KarlW : 12-22-2006 at 10:50 AM.
	What this means is that when we drop a ball and it falls to the ground, it wasn't the ball that moved (down to the ground), but the ground that moved (up to the ball)