Metabolism kick-start Question....

danchubbz · 01-06-2007, 07:55 AM

I understand that your first meal of the day kick-starts your metabolism after your over-night fast, however does your first training session (cardio) kick-start it also if I trained on an empty stomach in the same way as your first meal would?

Also when I do cardio on an empty stomach I do take BCAA's and glutamine before so would this also assist in kick-starting my metabolism along with cardio?

Cheers.

goandykid · 01-06-2007, 08:10 AM

I never really bought into this fasting, then cardio, or tricking your metabolism, or eating a huge amount then fasting. Why not jsut eat less?

danchubbz · 01-06-2007, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goandykid

I never really bought into this fasting, then cardio, or tricking your metabolism, or eating a huge amount then fasting. Why not jsut eat less?

That doesn't answer my question!!

**P-funk** · 01-06-2007, 09:36 AM

training on an empty stomach doesn't make much sense to me.

at the end of the day, it comes down to calories.

If you and I get on a treadmill and do 20min. of cardio and we both burn 250cals, does it really matter if I ate and you didn't? In the end we both burned 250cals.

Now, flip that and say that I eat, so I have more usable energy and you do not eat, so you have less energy to output.

Lets say for 40min you are working at a 5cal per minute pace. At the end, you have 200cals burned.

Now, I ate a small meal and got some energy in me and I can come in and do 40min at a 10cal per min. pace. At the end of that session I have burned 400 cals.

400 > 200

answer your question?

danchubbz · 01-06-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

training on an empty stomach doesn't make much sense to me.

at the end of the day, it comes down to calories.

If you and I get on a treadmill and do 20min. of cardio and we both burn 250cals, does it really matter if I ate and you didn't? In the end we both burned 250cals.

Now, flip that and say that I eat, so I have more usable energy and you do not eat, so you have less energy to output.

Lets say for 40min you are working at a 5cal per minute pace. At the end, you have 200cals burned.

Now, I ate a small meal and got some energy in me and I can come in and do 40min at a 10cal per min. pace. At the end of that session I have burned 400 cals.

400 > 200

answer your question?

Afraid u haven't mate, my question was does cardio kick start your metabolism the same way as your first meal does?!

**P-funk** · 01-06-2007, 12:48 PM

Think about what you are asking.....Does cardio kick start your metabolism?

Ofcourse it has to! How the hell else would you be able to perform the work your asking your body to perform if your metabolism wasn't doing something to produce energy.

I was saying that to do it on an empty stomach would not yield the same amount of intensity as it would if you were to fuel yourself and then go and work hard.

Squaggleboggin · 01-06-2007, 12:56 PM

Yet if you eat, you may gain back the extra calories you lost from the higher intenisty.

As an incentive not to do cardio on an empty stomach, I remember CowPimp saying something about risking losing some muscle mass. Perhaps it had something to do with going into a catabolic state when the body doesn't have fuel available? I don't know specifics and I might be completely wrong, but hopefully someone can help me out.

**P-funk** · 01-06-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Yet if you eat, you may gain back the extra calories you lost from the higher intenisty.

As an incentive not to do cardio on an empty stomach, I remember CowPimp saying something about risking losing some muscle mass. Perhaps it had something to do with going into a catabolic state when the body doesn't have fuel available? I don't know specifics and I might be completely wrong, but hopefully someone can help me out.

how so? Not after you factor in EPOC which is going to burn however many calories (it seems to change with every study).

Also, if you are on a diet in a caloric deficit, you are not going to be gaining back anything.

If you and I eat 2000 cals a day and you do cardio on an empty stomach and burn 200 cals and I do cardio after a small meal and burn 400 cals, I have created a larger deficit.

Squaggleboggin · 01-06-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

how so? Not after you factor in EPOC which is going to burn however many calories (it seems to change with every study).

Also, if you are on a diet in a caloric deficit, you are not going to be gaining back anything.

If you and I eat 2000 cals a day and you do cardio on an empty stomach and burn 200 cals and I do cardio after a small meal and burn 400 cals, I have created a larger deficit.

'Gain back' in the sense that you could've eaten an extra 200 calories, yet burned an additional 400 calories compared to me. But I forgot that, in this case, I would simply eat afterwards the same 200 calories you did, and you'd still be in more of a deficit than I would.

Basically, I assumed I would skip the meal you ate entirely; I forgot it would be after the cardio instead of non-existent. Silly mistake.

**Dale Mabry** · 01-06-2007, 01:09 PM

Not much difficulty here. Your sole purpose for losing weight permanently is to make your body better at burning calories by improving hormonal profile and shit like that. You're not going to do that by eating nothing and running like a pussy, you do that by busting your ass at full intensity, something you are not going to do on an empty stomach. You may drop the weight, but it comes right back on once you increase cals or lower intensity.

Make a better body and it will stay off.

**IainDaniel** · 01-06-2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Not much difficulty here. Your sole purpose for losing weight permanently is to make your body better at burning calories by improving hormonal profile and shit like that. You're not going to do that by eating nothing and running like a pussy, you do that by busting your ass at full intensity, something you are not going to do on an empty stomach. You may drop the weight, but it comes right back on once you increase cals or lower intensity.

Make a better body and it will stay off.

That is good stuff right there.

G-man · 01-06-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danchubbz

I understand that your first meal of the day kick-starts your metabolism after your over-night fast, however does your first training session (cardio) kick-start it also if I trained on an empty stomach in the same way as your first meal would?

Also when I do cardio on an empty stomach I do take BCAA's and glutamine before so would this also assist in kick-starting my metabolism along with cardio?

Cheers.

Lets clarify the question;
#1. Cardio revs up your metabolism it doesnt start it.
#2. An empty stomach 1st thing in the morning is not the same as an empty stomach in the afternoon.

Now the answer to the question I think you are asking.
Cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach is the best time, why you ask? because glycogen levels in the liver are completeley depleted, therefore theoretically you are utilizing fat stores for energy, ie.. burning fat instead of glycogen.

The only thing eating does is start the digestive process, and in doing so raises your metabolism until the food you consume is digested, then your metabolism slows back down. This is why you should eat 5 or 6 smaller meals every 3 to 4 hours to keep your metabolism going, instead of 3 big meals.

So if you are looking to cut fat then do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, if you are looking to permanently increase you metabolism, then 5 to 6 meals and increase activity, (including cardio & weight training).

Never weight train on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning.

DanOz · 01-07-2007, 12:34 AM

If you do cardio on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning, it is my understanding that the body will access stored fat reserves for energy, but it will also break down muscle mass for the same purpose.

danchubbz · 01-07-2007, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanOz

If you do cardio on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning, it is my understanding that the body will access stored fat reserves for energy, but it will also break down muscle mass for the same purpose.

Yes I agree and even though I really don't want to lose lean muscle mass I still really wanna lower my bf, this is why I take glutamine and BCAA's before cardio first thing in the morning so help prevent it.

IMO doing cardio on an empty stomach with these supplements gives me what I need to maximise cutting fat and maintaining lean muscle mass.

Also regarding cals burned during cardio it doesn't really matter if I do it on empty stomack or not because I'm following a certain cardio program on the treadmill, so I will be running the exact pace and distance regardless if I have food in my belly or not.

KarlW · 01-07-2007, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danchubbz

Yes I agree and even though I really don't want to lose lean muscle mass I still really wanna lower my bf, this is why I take glutamine and BCAA's before cardio first thing in the morning so help prevent it.

IMO doing cardio on an empty stomach with these supplements gives me what I need to maximise cutting fat and maintaining lean muscle mass.

Also regarding cals burned during cardio it doesn't really matter if I do it on empty stomack or not because I'm following a certain cardio program on the treadmill, so I will be running the exact pace and distance regardless if I have food in my belly or not.

So you asked the question and now you've answered it yourself?

Actually I like P's argument.

Scenario #1: cardio first thing on empty stomach. It might burn more fat or whatever because I haven't just eaten, but isn't the meal I have after it going to go straight back there (as fat)? Also, because I'm on an empty stomach I'm not going to have much energy so I may burn 200 cals (just say).

Scenario #2: Eat meal #1 then cardio a short while after (allowing enough time for digestion to start etc). Sure, I may be burning off the meal I just ate, but then I don't eat for a while so my body is burning fat for the next 2-3 hours. And, because I have energy when I do the cardio I may raise the intensity or duration and burn more cals.

Honestly though, it's neither here nor there, and as P said, it's a simpler equation of cals in vs cals out.

danchubbz · 01-07-2007, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlW

So you asked the question and now you've answered it yourself?

Actually I like P's argument.

Scenario #1: cardio first thing on empty stomach. It might burn more fat or whatever because I haven't just eaten, but isn't the meal I have after it going to go straight back there (as fat)? Also, because I'm on an empty stomach I'm not going to have much energy so I may burn 200 cals (just say).

Scenario #2: Eat meal #1 then cardio a short while after (allowing enough time for digestion to start etc). Sure, I may be burning off the meal I just ate, but then I don't eat for a while so my body is burning fat for the next 2-3 hours. And, because I have energy when I do the cardio I may raise the intensity or duration and burn more cals.

Honestly though, it's neither here nor there, and as P said, it's a simpler equation of cals in vs cals out.

No my question was does cardio kick-start your metabolisam and I that got answered, then the debate moved from pros and cons of cardio on an empty stomach.

Also u said if u ate b4 cardio u wouldn't eat after which IMO is crazy u should always eat after u exercise.

KarlW · 01-07-2007, 04:18 AM

danchubbz · 01-07-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlW

Why?

Because that's when your body needs food the most to replemish and repair after hiving it an ass kicking in the gym.

Also right after you train your body will burn through your PWO meal like a furnace so u would get almost a free meal in a sense making it easier in the long run to maintain your diet!

bjz · 01-07-2007, 12:27 PM

When I was younger(much younger ) I didn't understand that you must eat before and after you workout. If you have enough to give you the fuel you need for an awesome workout then you will give your muscles a good workout. You want to build more muscle right? So you need the protein and carbs after like has been said. Your body will be more efficient at burning fat the whole day especially since you are giving your body an opportunity to build the most muscle possible. I have always have been active but had gained alot of weight. I still have 80 to lose. Hate to mention that. I eat most of my carbs before and after my workouts.

I do more cardio than those of you who don't have so much fat to get off and are mostly just looking to build up the muscle .

KarlW · 01-07-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danchubbz

Because that's when your body needs food the most to replemish and repair after hiving it an ass kicking in the gym.

Also right after you train your body will burn through your PWO meal like a furnace so u would get almost a free meal in a sense making it easier in the long run to maintain your diet!

We talking cardio right? What's the point of doing cardio then eating straight after it? Isn't that just the reverse argument of eating then doing cardio? Either way you burn what you just ate or replace the burnt cals with a meal.

Squaggleboggin · 01-07-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlW

Either way you burn what you just ate or replace the burnt cals with a meal.

Only sort of, though.

Eat first, burn more calories than you ate because you had a lot of energy during the workout and have a much lower risk of losing LBM.

Eat after, burn less calories than you ate because you didn't have the energy during the workout and have a much higher risk of losing LBM.

That's how I look at it. I mean, if you don't eat before the cardio or after, when are you going to eat?

danchubbz · 01-08-2007, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlW

We talking cardio right? What's the point of doing cardio then eating straight after it? Isn't that just the reverse argument of eating then doing cardio? Either way you burn what you just ate or replace the burnt cals with a meal.

Cardio on empty stomach means you go straight into burning your fat stores which is what I want to do.

U still gotta eat approx 6 meals a day if u are following an intensive training routine so it just makes good sense to have straight after any type of exercise, cardio or weights when your body needs it the most and is at its best in burning it up, I'm still gonna be pushing for the same amount of cals at the end of the day regardless.

Who told not to eat after cardio, that is bad advice my friend.

KarlW · 01-08-2007, 02:37 AM

Quote:

so it just makes good sense to have straight after any type of exercise, cardio or weights when your body needs it the most and is at its best in burning it up

Weights yes because you are looking to shuttle protein to the muscles ASAP to begin the repair (building) process. But why cardio? What is your logic?

It's a silly argument anyway. Eat your 6 meals a day with however many cals you have and do some exercise somewhere. Period. If you think that exercising on an empty stomach is the way to go then do what you want.

danchubbz · 01-08-2007, 03:41 AM

yeah cardio on an empty stomach IMO gives me the best results when cutting but I realise different techniques work better for different people.

and yes I know after weight training your body will burn up the cals more then after cardio but I still push myself fairly hard when doing cardio so my muscles will certainly need refueling and repairing. I'm definately not one who thinks cardio falls under walking on a treadmill for 30 mins on a slight incline!!

**Dale Mabry** · 01-08-2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danchubbz

Cardio on empty stomach means you go straight into burning your fat stores which is what I want to do.

No it doesn't. Unless you are on a keto diet, you will burn glycogen which is just the stored form of carbohydrate. Your body holds about 2000 cals of glycogen. Burning fat is based on your ability to release it which, in turn, is based on the energy system you are using.

**P-funk** · 01-08-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

No it doesn't. Unless you are on a keto diet, you will burn glycogen which is just the stored form of carbohydrate. Your body holds about 2000 cals of glycogen. Burning fat is based on your ability to release it which, in turn, is based on the energy system you are using.

and, even if you release it, it still needs to be transported away from the fat cell so that it can be used for fuel.

01-06-2007, 07:55 AM	#1
danchubbz Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 287	Metabolism kick-start Question.... I understand that your first meal of the day kick-starts your metabolism after your over-night fast, however does your first training session (cardio) kick-start it also if I trained on an empty stomach in the same way as your first meal would? Also when I do cardio on an empty stomach I do take BCAA's and glutamine before so would this also assist in kick-starting my metabolism along with cardio? Cheers.
danchubbz Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 287

01-06-2007, 09:36 AM	#4
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,443	training on an empty stomach doesn't make much sense to me. at the end of the day, it comes down to calories. If you and I get on a treadmill and do 20min. of cardio and we both burn 250cals, does it really matter if I ate and you didn't? In the end we both burned 250cals. Now, flip that and say that I eat, so I have more usable energy and you do not eat, so you have less energy to output. Lets say for 40min you are working at a 5cal per minute pace. At the end, you have 200cals burned. Now, I ate a small meal and got some energy in me and I can come in and do 40min at a 10cal per min. pace. At the end of that session I have burned 400 cals. 400 > 200 answer your question?
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

01-06-2007, 12:48 PM	#6
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,443	Think about what you are asking.....Does cardio kick start your metabolism? Ofcourse it has to! How the hell else would you be able to perform the work your asking your body to perform if your metabolism wasn't doing something to produce energy. I was saying that to do it on an empty stomach would not yield the same amount of intensity as it would if you were to fuel yourself and then go and work hard.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

01-06-2007, 12:56 PM	#7
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	Yet if you eat, you may gain back the extra calories you lost from the higher intenisty. As an incentive not to do cardio on an empty stomach, I remember CowPimp saying something about risking losing some muscle mass. Perhaps it had something to do with going into a catabolic state when the body doesn't have fuel available? I don't know specifics and I might be completely wrong, but hopefully someone can help me out.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

01-06-2007, 01:09 PM	#10
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,845 Photos: 10	Not much difficulty here. Your sole purpose for losing weight permanently is to make your body better at burning calories by improving hormonal profile and shit like that. You're not going to do that by eating nothing and running like a pussy, you do that by busting your ass at full intensity, something you are not going to do on an empty stomach. You may drop the weight, but it comes right back on once you increase cals or lower intensity. Make a better body and it will stay off.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

01-06-2007, 08:10 AM	#2
goandykid Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,380	I never really bought into this fasting, then cardio, or tricking your metabolism, or eating a huge amount then fasting. Why not jsut eat less?
	You guys are going to lose. You might as well just cheer for me, because Boston isn’t winning in Boston for the season opener. I’m sorry. " - Gilbert Arenas

01-07-2007, 12:34 AM	#13
DanOz Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 56	If you do cardio on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning, it is my understanding that the body will access stored fat reserves for energy, but it will also break down muscle mass for the same purpose.

01-07-2007, 04:18 AM	#17
KarlW My Little Man Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Oz Posts: 1,030	Why?
	What this means is that when we drop a ball and it falls to the ground, it wasn't the ball that moved (down to the ground), but the ground that moved (up to the ball)

01-07-2007, 12:27 PM	#19
bjz Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 7	When I was younger(much younger ) I didn't understand that you must eat before and after you workout. If you have enough to give you the fuel you need for an awesome workout then you will give your muscles a good workout. You want to build more muscle right? So you need the protein and carbs after like has been said. Your body will be more efficient at burning fat the whole day especially since you are giving your body an opportunity to build the most muscle possible. I have always have been active but had gained alot of weight. I still have 80 to lose. Hate to mention that. I eat most of my carbs before and after my workouts. I do more cardio than those of you who don't have so much fat to get off and are mostly just looking to build up the muscle .
bjz Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 7

01-08-2007, 03:41 AM	#24
danchubbz Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 287	yeah cardio on an empty stomach IMO gives me the best results when cutting but I realise different techniques work better for different people. and yes I know after weight training your body will burn up the cals more then after cardio but I still push myself fairly hard when doing cardio so my muscles will certainly need refueling and repairing. I'm definately not one who thinks cardio falls under walking on a treadmill for 30 mins on a slight incline!!
danchubbz Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 287