Can't Prove It

DOMS · 01-11-2007, 01:10 PM

I ran across an across an article on T-Nation titled "Can't Prove It".

The article asks serveral coaches/trainers something about weight training that they believe to be true, but for which there is no real scientific proof. It's a pretty interesting read.

I like the part about cardio workouts, but I'm not so hot with the last piece on squats.

mike456 · 01-11-2007, 02:17 PM

sounds very interesting, thanks

fufu · 01-11-2007, 02:53 PM

That was fun.

Yeah not keen on the last part although I have thought that myself.

DOMS · 01-11-2007, 02:55 PM

Yep, sometimes educated speculation can be fun.

ReproMan · 01-11-2007, 02:56 PM

Weeeeeeee.....

Squaggleboggin · 01-11-2007, 07:15 PM

That is interesting about the squats and deadlifts.

If you've read 'Dinosaur Training' by Brooks Kubik, he speculates how building muscle very slowly and over a long period of time will help strengthen the connective tissues far better than going for the gold as soon as possible. In other words, add weight very slowly and everything will keep up; add it too quickly and your muscles will outgrow the connective tissues. I wonder whether it's true.

fufu · 01-11-2007, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

That is interesting about the squats and deadlifts.

If you've read 'Dinosaur Training' by Brooks Kubik, he speculates how building muscle very slowly and over a long period of time will help strengthen the connective tissues far better than going for the gold as soon as possible. In other words, add weight very slowly and everything will keep up; add it too quickly and your muscles will outgrow the connective tissues. I wonder whether it's true.

Maybe for a dominate mesomorph, but maybe not for your average person.

I wonder if there has been any studies on this.

DOMS · 01-11-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fufu

Maybe for a dominate mesomorph, but maybe not for your average person.

I wonder if there has been any studies on this.

The point of the article were ideas that had no (or little) scientific backing.

**P-funk** · 01-11-2007, 08:26 PM

good read.

the best part about t-bag is not the article itself, but the morons that post after it.

DOMS · 01-11-2007, 08:33 PM

Did they ask stupid shit like, "How many carbs"?

**P-funk** · 01-11-2007, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

Did they ask stupid shit like, "How many carbs"?

No, they are on a whole nother lever as far as moronic goes.

**IainDaniel** · 01-11-2007, 08:35 PM

**CowPimp** · 01-11-2007, 10:40 PM

Cool read. I usually don't read TCs stuff, but that was worthwhile.

Seanp156 · 01-12-2007, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fufu

Maybe for a dominate mesomorph, but maybe not for your average person.

I wonder if there has been any studies on this.

That, and possibly when you're a noobie.... The first 6-12 months of training.

danchubbz · 01-12-2007, 04:27 AM

yeah I enjoyed that one, what are your guys thoughts on the cardio theory?

I think I've reached a plateau on mt fat loss with slow and steady cardio which usually lasts between 35-45 minutes a time, I got really good results at the start but not so much now.

Was gonna mix things up starting next week and try and incorporate more HIIT and changing my weights routine from a body part split to upper/lower.

Any feedback will really appreciated.

shiznit2169 · 01-12-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Take myself for example; I trained 8 years to improve football performance and then 4 years for Olympic lifting. During those 12 years my training was heavily "lower half dominant" because I figured that I needed a lot more leg than upper body strength.

In fact, during my first two years of training I only trained legs (and I trained them 4-5 times per week)! Okay, fast-forward to the present time: I can actually train legs only once every 2 weeks with a few sets of squats and they will grow.

I can gain more leg size with 5 total sets of squats per week than most can with a myriad of exercises and more complex training techniques. However, my chest grows very slowly (as an Olympic lifter, training chest was a big no-no) and requires more frequent and more intense stimulation. Why is that? A lot of it has to do with the fact that my nervous system is "good" at recruiting the HT motor-units in my legs because it had a lot of practice at that.

Another example is Sébastien Cossette (known as Da Freak) who is well known for his huge traps. Yet, we hardly ever used any trap exercises with him. Otherwise they'd grow too big in comparison to other body parts.

Sébastien's father used to own a convenience store. Sébastien worked there and spent his days carrying boxes and that put a tremendous amount of stress on the traps. He did this for years and as a result his traps became insanely easy-responders. However, when he was young he didn't really train his legs intensely (like most kids his age) and as a result they grow slower than his back, biceps, and shoulders.

The bottom line is that the more efficient your CNS is at recruiting HT motor-units within a muscle, the better that muscle responds to training.

Is this true? The reason i ask is because my legs seem to grow a little slower in comparison to my upper body. Should i work my legs a lot more frequently just so the CNS will be efficient at recruiting HT motor-units within that muscle or just continue doing what i do?

I also don't understand this because people always say that you grow outside of the gym, not in. So, i would need to rest, eat and sleep well. If that's the case, then why did he train legs 4-5 times per week?

AKIRA · 01-12-2007, 10:58 AM

That section baffled me as well. Kind of goes against what you hear most of the time here. cuz you know someone will say they have an "arm day" cuz of the fact that they believe their arms dont grow.

Witchblade · 01-12-2007, 05:04 PM

Well, he says 'use the muscles a lot'. That doesn't mean you have to work to failure or even at high intensities a lot. Ergo, you train the muscle often, just not with high intensities.

Squaggleboggin · 01-12-2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

Well, he says 'use the muscles a lot'. That doesn't mean you have to work to failure or even at high intensities a lot. Ergo, you train the muscle often, just not with high intensities.

That's what I was thinking. It could be just another way to shock the body.

What I don't quite understand is how someone can train something biweekly and still see gains. I mean, people train to failure weekly sometimes, so what do they train to when their frequency is biweekly?

**CowPimp** · 01-13-2007, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit2169

Is this true? The reason i ask is because my legs seem to grow a little slower in comparison to my upper body. Should i work my legs a lot more frequently just so the CNS will be efficient at recruiting HT motor-units within that muscle or just continue doing what i do?

I also don't understand this because people always say that you grow outside of the gym, not in. So, i would need to rest, eat and sleep well. If that's the case, then why did he train legs 4-5 times per week?

Because he was training his upper body less to compensate. You can train a muscle more frequently, and your body will adapt to that stress. However, you are going to get better results if you lower the volume used on other body parts so your recovery resources can be used for the body part receiving the most stimulation.

slip · 01-13-2007, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danchubbz

yeah I enjoyed that one, what are your guys thoughts on the cardio theory?

I think I've reached a plateau on mt fat loss with slow and steady cardio which usually lasts between 35-45 minutes a time, I got really good results at the start but not so much now.

Was gonna mix things up starting next week and try and incorporate more HIIT and changing my weights routine from a body part split to upper/lower.

Any feedback will really appreciated.

definately use HIIT, try some 1min hard/1min very easy - repeat, along with upper/lower twice a week. I hit bf in the 7's with good diet, 5x5 upper/lower, no cardio. (id advise not to do 5x5 for long on a cut diet, i ended up hurting my shoulder after 4wks)

danchubbz · 01-13-2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slip

definately use HIIT, try some 1min hard/1min very easy - repeat, along with upper/lower twice a week. I hit bf in the 7's with good diet, 5x5 upper/lower, no cardio. (id advise not to do 5x5 for long on a cut diet, i ended up hurting my shoulder after 4wks)

Cheers mate.

shiznit2169 · 01-13-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Because he was training his upper body less to compensate. You can train a muscle more frequently, and your body will adapt to that stress. However, you are going to get better results if you lower the volume used on other body parts so your recovery resources can be used for the body part receiving the most stimulation.

So, if i have been putting stress on my whole body equally, would it be wise to lower the volume just a tad bit on my upper body and increase the volume a tad bit on my lower body to compensate for it? I don't mean to come off as if my upper body totally dominates my legs because it isn't. I'm still well-proportioned but my legs do tend to grow a little slower compared to my upper body.

AKIRA · 01-13-2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Because he was training his upper body less to compensate. You can train a muscle more frequently, and your body will adapt to that stress. However, you are going to get better results if you lower the volume used on other body parts so your recovery resources can be used for the body part receiving the most stimulation.

I dont know why, but this isnt coming in clearly for me. Can you make an example?

Witchblade · 01-13-2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

I dont know why, but this isnt coming in clearly for me. Can you make an example?

Training a bodypart more frequently -> more stress on that bodypart -> more recovery required that has to come from somewhere else, like another bodypart.

DOMS · 01-13-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

Training a bodypart more frequently -> more stress on that bodypart -> more recovery required that has to come from somewhere else, like another bodypart.

I think the point is that the more you use a muscle the more it increases motor unit recruitment.

"The problem, in my opinion, is with the nervous system and not with the actual muscle tissue. Muscle tissue is muscle tissue and the adaptive process is the same regardless of what muscle we are talking about. Sure, some muscles probably have more growth potential than others, but we should be able to stimulate proportional growth to all of our muscle groups. Yet this rarely happens. Why?

The problem is neural: stubborn muscles have a higher activation threshold, meaning the nervous system isn't efficient at recruiting the HT motor-units within that muscle group.

In most cases this is due to a lack of "recruitment skills" (for a lack of better words): your CNS is not used to activating the HT motor-units in that muscle group. This is why a stubborn muscle group should be trained more often and with more targeted (as opposed to only compound movements) training.

Frequent targeted practice will increase your capacity to recruit the HT motor-units within that stubborn muscle group: you become better at it. And as you become better at recruiting the HT motor-units in a muscle group, you will "transform" this muscle into an easy-responder."

01-11-2007, 01:10 PM	#1
DOMS Metrosexual Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In a van, down by the river... Posts: 21,728 Photos: 6	Can't Prove It I ran across an across an article on T-Nation titled "Can't Prove It". The article asks serveral coaches/trainers something about weight training that they believe to be true, but for which there is no real scientific proof. It's a pretty interesting read. I like the part about cardio workouts, but I'm not so hot with the last piece on squats.
	I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid.â€”John Gotti

01-11-2007, 02:17 PM	#2
mike456 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,284	sounds very interesting, thanks
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01-11-2007, 02:53 PM	#3
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,491 Photos: 7	That was fun. Yeah not keen on the last part although I have thought that myself.
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

01-11-2007, 02:55 PM	#4
DOMS Metrosexual Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In a van, down by the river... Posts: 21,728 Photos: 6	Yep, sometimes educated speculation can be fun.
	I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid.â€”John Gotti

01-11-2007, 07:15 PM	#6
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	That is interesting about the squats and deadlifts. If you've read 'Dinosaur Training' by Brooks Kubik, he speculates how building muscle very slowly and over a long period of time will help strengthen the connective tissues far better than going for the gold as soon as possible. In other words, add weight very slowly and everything will keep up; add it too quickly and your muscles will outgrow the connective tissues. I wonder whether it's true.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

01-11-2007, 02:56 PM	#5
ReproMan SeÃ±or Member Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stuart, FL Posts: 7,261	Weeeeeeee.....

01-11-2007, 08:26 PM	#9
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,645	good read. the best part about t-bag is not the article itself, but the morons that post after it.
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01-11-2007, 08:33 PM	#10
DOMS Metrosexual Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In a van, down by the river... Posts: 21,728 Photos: 6	Did they ask stupid shit like, "How many carbs"?
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01-11-2007, 08:35 PM	#12
IainDaniel My Role Model Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 15,945	Lol
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01-11-2007, 10:40 PM	#13
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,434	Cool read. I usually don't read TCs stuff, but that was worthwhile.
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01-12-2007, 04:27 AM	#15
danchubbz Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 287	yeah I enjoyed that one, what are your guys thoughts on the cardio theory? I think I've reached a plateau on mt fat loss with slow and steady cardio which usually lasts between 35-45 minutes a time, I got really good results at the start but not so much now. Was gonna mix things up starting next week and try and incorporate more HIIT and changing my weights routine from a body part split to upper/lower. Any feedback will really appreciated.
danchubbz Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 287

01-12-2007, 10:58 AM	#17
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,925 Photos: 3	That section baffled me as well. Kind of goes against what you hear most of the time here. cuz you know someone will say they have an "arm day" cuz of the fact that they believe their arms dont grow.
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01-12-2007, 05:04 PM	#18
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 4,443 Photos: 2	Well, he says 'use the muscles a lot'. That doesn't mean you have to work to failure or even at high intensities a lot. Ergo, you train the muscle often, just not with high intensities.
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