EPOC Overrated?

**CowPimp** · 02-13-2007, 09:13 PM

I'm starting to wonder where everyone got the idea that EPOC is so important? Virtually every class I take poo-poo's the aftereffects of high intensity anaerobic exercise in its various forms. The texts these classes are teaching from are all current. Usually 2006 is the publication date.

A review of the literature regarding the EPOC impact seems to be, at best, inconclusive, and at worst, indicating that EPOC has a very minor impact on overall caloric expenditure. The recommendations I've been seeing basically say work as hard as you can for a given duration.

I would like to know why people think that higher intensity cardio is beneficial relative to longer duration aerobic exercise? Is it just that you read an article, or forum peeps espousing its benefits (Myself included in that party)? Did you actually read some research indicating that it might be highly beneficial?

Also, I'm not suggesting it's not a good idea. I think interval training and various other forms of anaerobic training allow you to get a crapload of work done in a short period of time, and anaerobic exercise is still extremely important for athletes in most sports, but it's the value of EPOC I'm questioning here.

Anyway, post up any information you have. I'd like to get a good discussion going on this, as it seems to be kind of a hot topic in the industry.

**P-funk** · 02-13-2007, 09:19 PM

The research is all over the place with it. Some say 200-400 calories. Some say 30-40 extra calories. Some say 40-60min. Others say 24-32 hours....it is all over the place.

i think the main thing that we need to focus on is the fact that the groups that worked harder (more intense) saw the best results in terms of fat loss. This is probably do to the fact that they worked really hard for a certain amount of time (10-120sec), rested or did some sort of recovery interval (where they were buring calories jsut by recovering. This has never been measured, but I think this short duration of EPOC is where some big time calories are burned).

I am not going to completly throw out SS cardio. I think you can use a good mix of everything. I do prefer interval work. I think it is a more efficient use of time.

WantItBad · 02-13-2007, 09:23 PM

Is it true that after one session of intervals ur fitness level can greatly increase?

WantItBad · 02-13-2007, 09:25 PM

http://www.firstbeattechnologies.com...Essentials.pdf

shiznit2169 · 02-13-2007, 09:28 PM

what does EPOC stand for?

**P-funk** · 02-13-2007, 09:31 PM

Excess
Post-Exercise
Oxygen
Consumption

slip · 02-13-2007, 11:40 PM

I have had great results with it for my clients, but I believe for a different reason.

When left to their own devices on a constant speed, they will take it too easy. After being taught how to interval train on a bike/rower (they are fat and running is not on the menu) they know its a sprint then rest, and they do sprint. So for my clients they go well when doing interval training, but I beleive it is because they don't properly exert themselves during steady state exercise.

**CowPimp** · 02-14-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

The research is all over the place with it. Some say 200-400 calories. Some say 30-40 extra calories. Some say 40-60min. Others say 24-32 hours....it is all over the place.

i think the main thing that we need to focus on is the fact that the groups that worked harder (more intense) saw the best results in terms of fat loss. This is probably do to the fact that they worked really hard for a certain amount of time (10-120sec), rested or did some sort of recovery interval (where they were buring calories jsut by recovering. This has never been measured, but I think this short duration of EPOC is where some big time calories are burned).

I am not going to completly throw out SS cardio. I think you can use a good mix of everything. I do prefer interval work. I think it is a more efficient use of time.

Okay, that's sort of my thought. Interval work is great because you can get more work done in the same period of time, unless you are really good at pacing yourself to the limit (Which most people aren't). I also like it because you certainly don't need to do it quite as long as lower intensity solid state cardio to get the same calorie usage.

Still, when I see a program of just sprinting a couple times per week for a total of 10 minutes being recommended, I think that's trying to extrapolate data that just isn't there yet. I feel like someone saw one study in a crowded field of studies with extremely variable results, and tried to make some magical fat loss program out of it.

Now, I'm not saying everyone needs to stay in the fat burning zone. That is still a load of horseshit. However, if you can operate at 80-85% of your max heart rate for a reasonably long exercise session, then that's pretty good, and I think you'll see a lot of benefits like that as well.

Also, for the record, this isn't going to stop me from doing the more intense work. One, because I like to have good anaerobic endurance. I feel more athletic that way. It translates positively into more sports. Two, anaerobic work improves aerobic endurance pretty significantly, but not so much the other way around. Three, I don't have the patience or attention span to do solid state cardio very much, heh.

**CowPimp** · 02-14-2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slip

I have had great results with it for my clients, but I believe for a different reason.

When left to their own devices on a constant speed, they will take it too easy. After being taught how to interval train on a bike/rower (they are fat and running is not on the menu) they know its a sprint then rest, and they do sprint. So for my clients they go well when doing interval training, but I beleive it is because they don't properly exert themselves during steady state exercise.

That's a very good point slip. I see some clients come into the studio and take their jolly old time on some piece of cardio equipment, and it is fucking ridiculous. It's like they're not even trying, heh.

slip · 02-14-2007, 06:15 PM

Specificity and relevance also play a big part.

Average People don't run 5km. They dont go for 10km bike rides. They run up stairs and think "god im unfit" or they run to catch a bus, walk up a hill, play some soccer in the park. Its usually a shorter, more intense anerobic burst that occurs in day to day life where people will feel fit and healthy or not.

And that is when my clients come back to me and say "oh I went up some stairs the other day and I'm so much fitter, it was easy!" It took them what, 20 seconds to do? But that is a type of fitness, and a very important one to average Joe.

**P-funk** · 02-14-2007, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Okay, that's sort of my thought. Interval work is great because you can get more work done in the same period of time, unless you are really good at pacing yourself to the limit (Which most people aren't). I also like it because you certainly don't need to do it quite as long as lower intensity solid state cardio to get the same calorie usage.

Still, when I see a program of just sprinting a couple times per week for a total of 10 minutes being recommended, I think that's trying to extrapolate data that just isn't there yet. I feel like someone saw one study in a crowded field of studies with extremely variable results, and tried to make some magical fat loss program out of it.

Now, I'm not saying everyone needs to stay in the fat burning zone. That is still a load of horseshit. However, if you can operate at 80-85% of your max heart rate for a reasonably long exercise session, then that's pretty good, and I think you'll see a lot of benefits like that as well.

Also, for the record, this isn't going to stop me from doing the more intense work. One, because I like to have good anaerobic endurance. I feel more athletic that way. It translates positively into more sports. Two, anaerobic work improves aerobic endurance pretty significantly, but not so much the other way around. Three, I don't have the patience or attention span to do solid state cardio very much, heh.

I couldn't see only doing intervals for 10min. and then calling it a day. If I do intervals it is sometimes after weight training.

If I do it on non-training days I do a bunch of intervals and then some regular cardio at a moderatly high intensity.

**CowPimp** · 02-14-2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slip

Specificity and relevance also play a big part.

Average People don't run 5km. They dont go for 10km bike rides. They run up stairs and think "god im unfit" or they run to catch a bus, walk up a hill, play some soccer in the park. Its usually a shorter, more intense anerobic burst that occurs in day to day life where people will feel fit and healthy or not.

And that is when my clients come back to me and say "oh I went up some stairs the other day and I'm so much fitter, it was easy!" It took them what, 20 seconds to do? But that is a type of fitness, and a very important one to average Joe.

That's true. Very good point.

**CowPimp** · 02-14-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I couldn't see only doing intervals for 10min. and then calling it a day. If I do intervals it is sometimes after weight training.

If I do it on non-training days I do a bunch of intervals and then some regular cardio at a moderatly high intensity.

I'm referring to something like Guerilla cardio. I don't think doing that a couple times a week is really enough for your average Joe to lose weight like they want to. They just don't pay enough attention to their diet for that to be really effective in and of itself.

I just feel like people have been bastardizing solid state cardio a lot, but I feel like it still has it's place. I'm kind of guilty of this too. It's easy to get caught up in a buzz.

**P-funk** · 02-14-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I'm referring to something like Guerilla cardio. I don't think doing that a couple times a week is really enough for your average Joe to lose weight like they want to. They just don't pay enough attention to their diet for that to be really effective in and of itself.

I just feel like people have been bastardizing solid state cardio a lot, but I feel like it still has it's place. I'm kind of guilty of this too. It's easy to get caught up in a buzz.

I agree. I have never swayed all the way over on that. I still advocate a mix. I do like to see them done in the same day....ie, intervals for 15min., moderately high intensity for 15min. Sometimes I put people on the bike and use the hill interval program on that and have them try and keep a certain RPM number. This is an easy way to make sure that they are working hard enough during their cardio sessions without having them to get flustered with paying attention to 60sec intervals, changing the resistance etc...

Also, I like to use a mix of short intense intervals and longer more tempo like intervals.....might be 1-2min. of hard work (RPE=7-8) followed by 1-2min. of moderate work (RPE= 3-4).

Lots of options.

Bakerboy · 02-14-2007, 10:18 PM

What about the other way around. I mean doing cardio first and then sprints.
I did this combo last week and loved it.

30 minutes SS on rollers (on my track bike)
Then- 3 minute rounds of jump rope 3-4 times

**P-funk** · 02-14-2007, 10:28 PM

If you do that, you fatigue yourself and your ability to optimally display power (and a higher work rate) will be impaired when it comes time to do sprints. The full benefit will not be achieved IMO.

Bakerboy · 02-14-2007, 10:36 PM

Except that biking is about making circles and uses different muscles (for the most part) than skipping- skipping taxes the calves.

**P-funk** · 02-14-2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

Except that biking is about making circles and uses different muscles (for the most part) than skipping- skipping taxes the calves.

muscluar system aside......energy is still energy. if you expend it...you don't have it.

Bakerboy · 02-14-2007, 10:54 PM

Wouldn't that mean that whatever exercise you do second you will have less energy for? What if I wanted to focus on biking- wouldn't it make sense to do it first? Why not sprint before you do weights then? Why always at the end? Isn't that about prioritizing too?

slip · 02-14-2007, 11:25 PM

Bakerboy - if you are going hard out on the bike, then do that first.

or devils advocate - make yourself work for it, wear yourself out a bit with the skipping and then hit the bike hard.

I always put the most intense thing first, so if thats bike, then bike first.

Yanick · 02-15-2007, 12:31 AM

Bakerboy you have to understand we are talking about intensity here as well as what one is hoping to achieve through such cardio. If you do the SS cardio first then move on the sprints you will not be able to work as hard as if you did the sprints after your warm up. Perceived effort might be the same but absolute work will most definitely be less, whether its a missed step here or there or an extra couple of seconds to 'catch your breath' its a scientific fact you won't be working as hard at the higher intensity if you already expended your energy doing the other cardio.

Now if all you really care about is burning kcal, i'm sure the difference is probably small enough for one not to notice. It'll still probably be there because you won't be able to keep up the same pace since you are already a bit fatigued.

If you are trying to develop your sprinting/power abilities then it is absolutely a no-no. You will never hear of a powerlifter doing 5 sets of 12 on a bench then doing his strength work. Why? Because he/she wants the strength work first (after warm up of course) so the intensity can be high.

Now if you participate in some sort of sport or competition which has you doing steady state cardio-esque stuff then has you sprinting around, by all means you are doing the right thing because that will, in the end, condition your body to optimally operate under such circumstances.

**P-funk** · 02-15-2007, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

Wouldn't that mean that whatever exercise you do second you will have less energy for? What if I wanted to focus on biking- wouldn't it make sense to do it first? Why not sprint before you do weights then? Why always at the end? Isn't that about prioritizing too?

it is prioritizing. you have to prioritize what your goal of the session is.

For example, a number of strength coaches have their athletes condition before weight training. The athletes adapt to this and they might lose a little in the way of strength when it comes to the lifting. But, the coach feels that the conditioning aspect is the most important part of the training.

If aerobic capacity is your goal of the session, then I could see doing that aerobic work and if you wanted to finish with a few anaerobic intervals then that would be fine too.

However, those that are looking at EPOC are primarly only concered with fat loss. They are looking at the most efficient way to get lean. If that is what we are talking about, then the intensity of the work is the priority.

Bakerboy · 02-15-2007, 05:35 AM

Thanks for the help guys.

**CowPimp** · 02-15-2007, 07:31 AM

Although jumprope is a little different, as I don't find the injury potential to be very high, another reason to do the more intense work first is to reduce injury potential. If you are going to be doing sprints, for example, I wouldn't really want to do those in a more fatigued state than I have to because form and good mechanics are really important to maintain good motor patterns and help prevent injury. This is also why agility and technical lifts like cleans are usually done earlier in a workout. You don't want to be doing sloppy cuts and Olympic lifts.

WantItBad · 02-15-2007, 07:48 AM

Speaking of technique sloppiness....where i played my college ball we always conditioned before practice...was this so we could work on our technique in a tired state or is there another reason?

02-13-2007, 09:13 PM	#1
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,375	EPOC Overrated? BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com I'm starting to wonder where everyone got the idea that EPOC is so important? Virtually every class I take poo-poo's the aftereffects of high intensity anaerobic exercise in its various forms. The texts these classes are teaching from are all current. Usually 2006 is the publication date. A review of the literature regarding the EPOC impact seems to be, at best, inconclusive, and at worst, indicating that EPOC has a very minor impact on overall caloric expenditure. The recommendations I've been seeing basically say work as hard as you can for a given duration. I would like to know why people think that higher intensity cardio is beneficial relative to longer duration aerobic exercise? Is it just that you read an article, or forum peeps espousing its benefits (Myself included in that party)? Did you actually read some research indicating that it might be highly beneficial? Also, I'm not suggesting it's not a good idea. I think interval training and various other forms of anaerobic training allow you to get a crapload of work done in a short period of time, and anaerobic exercise is still extremely important for athletes in most sports, but it's the value of EPOC I'm questioning here. Anyway, post up any information you have. I'd like to get a good discussion going on this, as it seems to be kind of a hot topic in the industry.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace

02-13-2007, 09:19 PM	#2
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	The research is all over the place with it. Some say 200-400 calories. Some say 30-40 extra calories. Some say 40-60min. Others say 24-32 hours....it is all over the place. i think the main thing that we need to focus on is the fact that the groups that worked harder (more intense) saw the best results in terms of fat loss. This is probably do to the fact that they worked really hard for a certain amount of time (10-120sec), rested or did some sort of recovery interval (where they were buring calories jsut by recovering. This has never been measured, but I think this short duration of EPOC is where some big time calories are burned). I am not going to completly throw out SS cardio. I think you can use a good mix of everything. I do prefer interval work. I think it is a more efficient use of time.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

02-13-2007, 09:23 PM	#3
WantItBad WantItBad Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,077 Photos: 22	Is it true that after one session of intervals ur fitness level can greatly increase?
	"Strength is the product of struggle" "Your greatest challenge isn't another person. Its the burning in your lungs and the burning in your legs, its the voice in your head screaming STOP you cant do anymore. But you dont listen. You push harder and you start to hear a the whisper of YOU CAN. You realize you are not the person you thought you were is no match for the person you are."

02-13-2007, 09:25 PM	#4
WantItBad WantItBad Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,077 Photos: 22	http://www.firstbeattechnologies.com...Essentials.pdf
	"Strength is the product of struggle" "Your greatest challenge isn't another person. Its the burning in your lungs and the burning in your legs, its the voice in your head screaming STOP you cant do anymore. But you dont listen. You push harder and you start to hear a the whisper of YOU CAN. You realize you are not the person you thought you were is no match for the person you are."

02-13-2007, 09:28 PM	#5
shiznit2169 flawless Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 3,971 Photos: 3	what does EPOC stand for?
	My Journal

02-13-2007, 09:31 PM	#6
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	Excess Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

02-13-2007, 11:40 PM	#7
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346	I have had great results with it for my clients, but I believe for a different reason. When left to their own devices on a constant speed, they will take it too easy. After being taught how to interval train on a bike/rower (they are fat and running is not on the menu) they know its a sprint then rest, and they do sprint. So for my clients they go well when doing interval training, but I beleive it is because they don't properly exert themselves during steady state exercise.
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346

02-14-2007, 06:15 PM	#10
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346	Specificity and relevance also play a big part. Average People don't run 5km. They dont go for 10km bike rides. They run up stairs and think "god im unfit" or they run to catch a bus, walk up a hill, play some soccer in the park. Its usually a shorter, more intense anerobic burst that occurs in day to day life where people will feel fit and healthy or not. And that is when my clients come back to me and say "oh I went up some stairs the other day and I'm so much fitter, it was easy!" It took them what, 20 seconds to do? But that is a type of fitness, and a very important one to average Joe.
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346

02-14-2007, 10:18 PM	#15
Bakerboy cat burglar Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the city of champions Posts: 4,146 Photos: 3	What about the other way around. I mean doing cardio first and then sprints. I did this combo last week and loved it. 30 minutes SS on rollers (on my track bike) Then- 3 minute rounds of jump rope 3-4 times
	No strength within, no respect without - Kasmiri Proverb

02-14-2007, 10:28 PM	#16
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	If you do that, you fatigue yourself and your ability to optimally display power (and a higher work rate) will be impaired when it comes time to do sprints. The full benefit will not be achieved IMO.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

02-14-2007, 10:36 PM	#17
Bakerboy cat burglar Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the city of champions Posts: 4,146 Photos: 3	Except that biking is about making circles and uses different muscles (for the most part) than skipping- skipping taxes the calves.
	No strength within, no respect without - Kasmiri Proverb

02-14-2007, 10:54 PM	#19
Bakerboy cat burglar Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the city of champions Posts: 4,146 Photos: 3	Wouldn't that mean that whatever exercise you do second you will have less energy for? What if I wanted to focus on biking- wouldn't it make sense to do it first? Why not sprint before you do weights then? Why always at the end? Isn't that about prioritizing too?
	No strength within, no respect without - Kasmiri Proverb

02-14-2007, 11:25 PM	#20
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346	Bakerboy - if you are going hard out on the bike, then do that first. or devils advocate - make yourself work for it, wear yourself out a bit with the skipping and then hit the bike hard. I always put the most intense thing first, so if thats bike, then bike first.
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346

02-15-2007, 12:31 AM	#21
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,767	Bakerboy you have to understand we are talking about intensity here as well as what one is hoping to achieve through such cardio. If you do the SS cardio first then move on the sprints you will not be able to work as hard as if you did the sprints after your warm up. Perceived effort might be the same but absolute work will most definitely be less, whether its a missed step here or there or an extra couple of seconds to 'catch your breath' its a scientific fact you won't be working as hard at the higher intensity if you already expended your energy doing the other cardio. Now if all you really care about is burning kcal, i'm sure the difference is probably small enough for one not to notice. It'll still probably be there because you won't be able to keep up the same pace since you are already a bit fatigued. If you are trying to develop your sprinting/power abilities then it is absolutely a no-no. You will never hear of a powerlifter doing 5 sets of 12 on a bench then doing his strength work. Why? Because he/she wants the strength work first (after warm up of course) so the intensity can be high. Now if you participate in some sort of sport or competition which has you doing steady state cardio-esque stuff then has you sprinting around, by all means you are doing the right thing because that will, in the end, condition your body to optimally operate under such circumstances.
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,767	"...we have to remember that training is a complicated dance of stimuli and response. Our goal is to understand how to manipulate the stimuli in order to evoke the responses we desire." -Nathan J. Polenchek

02-15-2007, 05:35 AM	#23
Bakerboy cat burglar Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the city of champions Posts: 4,146 Photos: 3	Thanks for the help guys.
	No strength within, no respect without - Kasmiri Proverb

02-15-2007, 07:31 AM	#24
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,375	Although jumprope is a little different, as I don't find the injury potential to be very high, another reason to do the more intense work first is to reduce injury potential. If you are going to be doing sprints, for example, I wouldn't really want to do those in a more fatigued state than I have to because form and good mechanics are really important to maintain good motor patterns and help prevent injury. This is also why agility and technical lifts like cleans are usually done earlier in a workout. You don't want to be doing sloppy cuts and Olympic lifts.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace

02-15-2007, 07:48 AM	#25
WantItBad WantItBad Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,077 Photos: 22	Speaking of technique sloppiness....where i played my college ball we always conditioned before practice...was this so we could work on our technique in a tired state or is there another reason?
	"Strength is the product of struggle" "Your greatest challenge isn't another person. Its the burning in your lungs and the burning in your legs, its the voice in your head screaming STOP you cant do anymore. But you dont listen. You push harder and you start to hear a the whisper of YOU CAN. You realize you are not the person you thought you were is no match for the person