Phil Pfister- 2006 World Strongman....Functional Training

Duncans Donuts · 02-28-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slip

Point 1 - totally agree, but having raced with current MotoGP rider Chris Vermulen years ago, I have some experience, and its a stupid example of something completely unrelated, totally dissimilar to riding a corner and to me is obviously included to discredit the fit ball. Anyone with half a brain writing an unbiased article would not use that example, its utter shit.

Point 2 - Best way to learn to skateboard is to skateboard. Guess what, top level athletes use a number of different things to improve performance. They do NOT just sprint, or just ride, or just whatever, they use any and every outside technique to improve their performance every bit they can. But yes, the best way to learn something is to do it, but to IMPROVE your learned skills, other things come into play.

Please show me how balancing and mimicing relevant movements/motions on a fit ball would NOT help a surfer/skateboarder?

Specific means specific. Not "close" or "similar". Reference motor learning literature listed above if you don't get the example.

Balance is an INNATE ability. As has been demonstrated relatively thoroughly in the literature, balance and gross body equilibrium cannot be improved "generally" - but it can be improved "specifically" within the boundary of a skill, withing a range genetic capacity. Using balance exercises with a Swiss ball will improve your balance in the exercise using a Swiss ball. It will not transfer over to say, general ability to balance while walking (or any other task).

So if you have problems balancing on a skateboard, practice balancing on a skateboard. This is not only obvious, but it is obviously the BEST way to go about things. Even if it were possible to improve balance on a skateboard with a Swissball mimicking motions on a skateboard (it isn't), doing so outside of the sport would be a far inferior method.

Why? Because of specificity. There are around 20 interdependent variables regarding the motor functions of our body that change from task to task, calling the central nervous system to specifically "program" a set of instructions to efficiently generate a result. Practice is a honing of this program - the bodies "adaptation" by learning to generate a result more efficiently, adjusting any of many variables including the firing rate of neurons, the positioning of the body, the positioning of joints, the speed of contracting muscles, the desired force being generated, action of ancillary muscles, the order of muscular contraction...and so forth.

To illustrate my point of skill specificity, I will use an example of difference between throwing a football and throwing a baseball. I can throw a football roughly 45 yards. My baseball pitch is trash. My practicing throwing a football has had absolutely no benefit on my baseball pitch, despite how proficient I have become at it. Just because there is similar action (throw) and similar muscles being worked, the limb position, joint angles, acceleration of the muscular contractions, position of center of gravity, position of base of support (etc) make both motions dramatically dissimilar. You will have a different program instruction in your nervous system for throwing a baseball and throwing a football, despite what appears to be obvious similarities.

I use this example only to point out that some things that seem similar are, on the level of biomechanics, nothing close.

Anyone who has tried to build a humanoid robot can attest to the mind-numbing complexity of movement. If you were to program a function of walking and running for a robot, the instructions would be dramatically different.

Reference the link in my previous post for the difference between abilities and specific skills.

You are entitled to believe what you want, but Swiss ball training for a skateboarder is silly. Better time is spent on the skateboard (and there are a thousand techniques for improving skateboarding on a skateboard), or working the muscles involved in skateboarding, than on a Swiss ball.

slip · 02-28-2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Balance is an INNATE ability. As has been demonstrated relatively thoroughly in the literature, balance and gross body equilibrium cannot be improved "generally" - but it can be improved "specifically" within the boundary of a skill, withing a range genetic capacity. Using balance exercises with a Swiss ball will improve your balance in the exercise using a Swiss ball. It will not transfer over to say, general ability to balance while walking (or any other task).

I do agree that the best way to improve at something is to do it repeatedly.

Someone learning to surf. They have 0 experienc surfing/skating/fit ball standing etc. Take them out, they have trouble balancing when they first stand up. Spend 1 day working them up to bodyweight squats confidently and comfortably on a fit ball. Get them used to standing on an unstable surface, which is quite specific. They will do better day 2.

Have you gone snowboarding with first timers, who are good at skateboarding? Guess what, they go pretty well! Oh but its not exactly the same thing so it can't help..........

How specific is specific? Motorbike road racers use Motocross to train. Different surface, dynamics, body position, totally different bike, gear, everything is different, but its still riding a bike...... Same as surfing/standing on a fit ball are quite different, but they both involve balancing on an unstable surface.

**P-funk** · 02-28-2007, 09:37 PM

squatting on a ball makes you better at squatting on a ball.

It has never been proven or shown that using an unstable object can improve your ability to complete a real world task where your balance is challenged.

The only time that unstable training seems to pan out for the ankle complex is when someone is coming back from an injury and need to regain joint proprioception which has been lost.

You can't take research done on sick or injured people and apply it to the healthy. Things don't work that way.

fufu · 02-28-2007, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

squatting on a ball makes you better at squatting on a ball.

It has never been proven or shown that using an unstable object can improve your ability to complete a real world task where your balance is challenged.

The only time that unstable training seems to pan out for the ankle complex is when someone is coming back from an injury and need to regain joint proprioception which has been lost.

You can't take research done on sick or injured people and apply it to the healthy. Things don't work that way.

You don't agree with Boyle's teachings of things like pistols on 1/2 foam rollers/spongey benches?

That would seem to make sense, you know. Playing a grass field has some give, and training unilaterally like that would be pretty darn specific for strength training wouldn't it?

**P-funk** · 02-28-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fufu

You don't agree with Boyle's teachings of things like pistols on 1/2 foam rollers/spongey benches?

I do my pistols of a bench. The bench is spongy. there is nothing i can do about it though. i don't do it for the purpose that i think i am getting more ankle work.

No, I don't like the squats on the 1/2 foam roller or the airex pad.

**P-funk** · 02-28-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fufu

You don't agree with Boyle's teachings of things like pistols on 1/2 foam rollers/spongey benches?

That would seem to make sense, you know. Playing a grass field has some give, and training unilaterally like that would be pretty darn specific for strength training wouldn't it?

you edited and added.....to your second part....

In the gym we do what? We gain strength and we work pretty generally as far as improving our strength, power, anaerobic capacity. When we go out to the field to practice we work specific to our sport. If I have someone in the gym, I want to squat. If I want to work specific, I don't waste time squatting on a wobble board....we go outside and do agility drills on the field and work on deceleration. Slow down the tempo, work up to game speed, and teach proper joint angles. Can't get much more specific than that.

fufu · 02-28-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

you edited and added.....to your second part....

In the gym we do what? We gain strength and we work pretty generally as far as improving our strength, power, anaerobic capacity. When we go out to the field to practice we work specific to our sport. If I have someone in the gym, I want to squat. If I want to work specific, I don't waste time squatting on a wobble board....we go outside and do agility drills on the field and work on deceleration. Slow down the tempo, work up to game speed, and teach proper joint angles. Can't get much more specific than that.

Well I wasn't referring to wobble boards...but things like Boyle suggested seem to make sense.

But to the question - "in the gym we do what?"

I'm not sure. Alot of things, I think there could be a few tools in there to train for sports specificity.

I guess I'm just not sure where the line is drawn between training general strength and training for sports...can the line really be drawn?

WantItBad · 02-28-2007, 09:54 PM

cosgrove has this in his blog........just a side note

**P-funk** · 02-28-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fufu

Well I wasn't referring to wobble boards...but things like Boyle suggested seem to make sense.

But to the question - "in the gym we do what?"

I'm not sure. Alot of things, I think there could be a few tools in there to train for sports specificity.

I guess I'm just not sure where the line is drawn between training general strength and training for sports...can the line really be drawn?

Things that are more specific would be single leg or unilateral exercises. things that engage your entire body. Things that are velocity specific...med. balls, plyos, etc....There are lots of things that are more specific. But nothing is as specific as getting out on the field and practicing or playing. Everythign in the gym is done to enhance your structure so that when you go to the field you have good carry over and can prevent injury and enhance your game.

**P-funk** · 02-28-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WantItBad

cosgrove has this in his blog........just a side note

??

WantItBad · 02-28-2007, 10:05 PM

alwyn cosgrove has this video in his blog today

**P-funk** · 02-28-2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WantItBad

alwyn cosgrove has this video in his blog today

yea, I just saw what you were talking about.

Duncans Donuts · 02-28-2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

you edited and added.....to your second part....

In the gym we do what? We gain strength and we work pretty generally as far as improving our strength, power, anaerobic capacity. When we go out to the field to practice we work specific to our sport. If I have someone in the gym, I want to squat. If I want to work specific, I don't waste time squatting on a wobble board....we go outside and do agility drills on the field and work on deceleration. Slow down the tempo, work up to game speed, and teach proper joint angles. Can't get much more specific than that.

AMEN.

Quote:

That would seem to make sense, you know. Playing a grass field has some give, and training unilaterally like that would be pretty darn specific for strength training wouldn't it?

Let's go with an assumption that "similar" movements transfer to "specific" skills (they don't, but just for the sake of argument go with it). What on Earth would convince someone to do this kind of "pretty darn specific" training over SPECIFIC training on the field? Why practice subtraction when you are going to take a test on addition?

Quote:

Someone learning to surf. They have 0 experienc surfing/skating/fit ball standing etc. Take them out, they have trouble balancing when they first stand up. Spend 1 day working them up to bodyweight squats confidently and comfortably on a fit ball. Get them used to standing on an unstable surface, which is quite specific. They will do better day 2.

Have you gone snowboarding with first timers, who are good at skateboarding? Guess what, they go pretty well! Oh but its not exactly the same thing so it can't help..........

How specific is specific? Motorbike road racers use Motocross to train. Different surface, dynamics, body position, totally different bike, gear, everything is different, but its still riding a bike...... Same as surfing/standing on a fit ball are quite different, but they both involve balancing on an unstable surface.

With all due respect, you need to read more about the difference between general abilities and skills.

Your anecdotal "points" are completely swamped by the actual published research done on this topic. And just to make a point, a person who is naturally good at balancing on a skateboard would naturally be good at balancing on a surf-board, too, because they have a high genetic range for gross body equilibrium. This is the "innate" ability referenced in my previous points.

Why do two people who practice equally not always have equal skill levels? Here ability becomes the issue, as they are practicing the same movements but still not equals.

"Abiliites are stable characteristics or traits, genetically defined and unchangeable through practice or experience that underlie the various specific skills we learn throughout our lives. Abilities are prestructured commands acting as an "executive" motor program within the spinal cord, resulting in fundamental actions (muscular movement ability) that take place automatically without direct conscious control.

Abilities continue to develop through maturation, but within genetic constraints. They determine how well motor tasks can be performed but do not provide the patterns of specific skills - only general movement."

A skill refers to the ability to achieve an end result with maximum certainty - independent of luck or much luck - and minimal expenditure in energy, i.e. unwanted body movement or time. Everyday tasks involving specific skills, including those in the weight room or in athletics, involve specific movements that are integrated within general movements.

Skills can be added or modified throgh practice or experience./ In fact, skills are characterized as movements that are dependent on practice and exper5ience for their execution, as opposed to being genetically defined, i.e., abilities. For example, normal people have the natural ability to tap a foot or their fingers, but no one has the natural ability to play the drums. Those skills must be acquired through practice, integrating different patterns and movement combinations for varying beats and rhythms."

fufu · 02-28-2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Things that are more specific would be single leg or unilateral exercises. things that engage your entire body. Things that are velocity specific...med. balls, plyos, etc....There are lots of things that are more specific. But nothing is as specific as getting out on the field and practicing or playing. Everythign in the gym is done to enhance your structure so that when you go to the field you have good carry over and can prevent injury and enhance your game.

Well, that is what I was saying my previous post, sans the unstable surface.

Duncans Donuts · 02-28-2007, 10:13 PM

"..the available evidence suggests that exercises such as these do little more than improve individual perfromance of the drills themselves. Thus, if practicioners want to promote learning, they should encourage learners to spend the bulk of their time practicing the skills specific to the goal achievement.." - Dr. Richard Schmidt

fufu · 02-28-2007, 10:15 PM

[quote=Duncans Donuts;1576758]Let's go with an assumption that "similar" movements transfer to "specific" skills (they don't, but just for the sake of argument go with it). What on Earth would convince someone to do this kind of "pretty darn specific" training over SPECIFIC training on the field? Why practice subtraction when you are going to take a test on addition?QUOTE]

Not sure I follow here. Now you are saying that similar movements don't transfer to speficic skills...but do you also mean similar movements can't contribute to the developement of speficic skills?

fufu · 02-28-2007, 10:18 PM

btw, I am not disagreeing that the best way to get better at something is actually do that thing. I am just trying to understand your guys views of how to train in the gym in an auxiliary fashion to better develop yourself in a specific setting.

**P-funk** · 02-28-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fufu

btw, I am not disagreeing that the best way to get better at something is actually do that thing. I am just trying to understand your guys views of how to train in the gym in an auxiliary fashion to better develop yourself in a specific setting.

move from general to specific. Squatting = general. Lunging = more specific. Form sprints = most specific.

does that make sense?

fufu · 02-28-2007, 10:22 PM

fufu · 02-28-2007, 10:26 PM

Alot of this stuff is opinionated too I guess. From what I gather, the line between general strength training and training of little sports value(which would be time better spent training the sport) can jump all over the place from person to person. A kind of a gray area.

Duncans Donuts · 02-28-2007, 10:29 PM

General abilities like power, speed, and strength can be increased generally and integrated into specific skills by practicing the skills. For example, sprinting and squatting together can work synergistically. However, squatting good will not immediately transfer to sprinting faster, and vice versa. Together, however, they work to create a fast and forceful athlete.

BALANCE and GROSS EQUILIBRIUM need to be trained outside of a weight room in the specifics of a sport, however. So does agility and coordination. These are innate and cannot be improved generally, but specifically in the context of a skill.

slip · 03-01-2007, 06:33 AM

Lets use an elite level surfer as an example. He keeps coming 3rd. He wants to win. He needs that extra 1-5% performance. What are you going to do with him? Tell him to surf more?

Or a beginner surfer with poor balance as previously mentioned. And I repeat - standing on a fit ball will increase their ability to balance on an unstable surface, wether it be a surfboard, wobble board, fit ball, or even a medicine ball. Especially the med ball/wobble board/fit ball, they are similar enough that one will help the other.

How specific is specific? Increasing your ability to balance on an unstable surface seems pretty specific to me.

You agree that someone good at surfing will generally skate/snowbard well, but only due to a generally good equilibrium, so you are saying that the ability to surf will help with the ability to snowboard? But they aren't the same thing.....

I do understand what you mean about gridiron throw vs baseball, and non transference of seeminly similar skillsets, and general vs specific skills.
But take someone completely unco in day to day life. Teach them martial arts, and get them to black belt level, very coordinated. You say that coordination cannot be improved generally, so a black belt will still be totally unco in day to day life?

I think you look at everything too closely, and in black and white studies, without looking at elite, or even base level athletes training and things they have/currently use to improve performance in the real world.

02-28-2007, 09:37 PM	#33
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,625	squatting on a ball makes you better at squatting on a ball. It has never been proven or shown that using an unstable object can improve your ability to complete a real world task where your balance is challenged. The only time that unstable training seems to pan out for the ankle complex is when someone is coming back from an injury and need to regain joint proprioception which has been lost. You can't take research done on sick or injured people and apply it to the healthy. Things don't work that way.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

02-28-2007, 09:54 PM	#38
WantItBad WantItBad Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,077 Photos: 22	cosgrove has this in his blog........just a side note
	"Strength is the product of struggle" "Your greatest challenge isn't another person. Its the burning in your lungs and the burning in your legs, its the voice in your head screaming STOP you cant do anymore. But you dont listen. You push harder and you start to hear a the whisper of YOU CAN. You realize you are not the person you thought you were is no match for the person you are."

02-28-2007, 10:05 PM	#41
WantItBad WantItBad Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,077 Photos: 22	alwyn cosgrove has this video in his blog today
	"Strength is the product of struggle" "Your greatest challenge isn't another person. Its the burning in your lungs and the burning in your legs, its the voice in your head screaming STOP you cant do anymore. But you dont listen. You push harder and you start to hear a the whisper of YOU CAN. You realize you are not the person you thought you were is no match for the person you are."

02-28-2007, 10:13 PM	#45
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	"..the available evidence suggests that exercises such as these do little more than improve individual perfromance of the drills themselves. Thus, if practicioners want to promote learning, they should encourage learners to spend the bulk of their time practicing the skills specific to the goal achievement.." - Dr. Richard Schmidt
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

02-28-2007, 10:15 PM	#46
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,467 Photos: 7	[quote=Duncans Donuts;1576758]Let's go with an assumption that "similar" movements transfer to "specific" skills (they don't, but just for the sake of argument go with it). What on Earth would convince someone to do this kind of "pretty darn specific" training over SPECIFIC training on the field? Why practice subtraction when you are going to take a test on addition?QUOTE] Not sure I follow here. Now you are saying that similar movements don't transfer to speficic skills...but do you also mean similar movements can't contribute to the developement of speficic skills?
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

02-28-2007, 10:18 PM	#47
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,467 Photos: 7	btw, I am not disagreeing that the best way to get better at something is actually do that thing. I am just trying to understand your guys views of how to train in the gym in an auxiliary fashion to better develop yourself in a specific setting.
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

02-28-2007, 10:22 PM	#49
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,467 Photos: 7	Yes.
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

02-28-2007, 10:26 PM	#50
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,467 Photos: 7	Alot of this stuff is opinionated too I guess. From what I gather, the line between general strength training and training of little sports value(which would be time better spent training the sport) can jump all over the place from person to person. A kind of a gray area.
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

02-28-2007, 10:29 PM	#51
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	General abilities like power, speed, and strength can be increased generally and integrated into specific skills by practicing the skills. For example, sprinting and squatting together can work synergistically. However, squatting good will not immediately transfer to sprinting faster, and vice versa. Together, however, they work to create a fast and forceful athlete. BALANCE and GROSS EQUILIBRIUM need to be trained outside of a weight room in the specifics of a sport, however. So does agility and coordination. These are innate and cannot be improved generally, but specifically in the context of a skill.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

03-01-2007, 06:33 AM	#52
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346	Lets use an elite level surfer as an example. He keeps coming 3rd. He wants to win. He needs that extra 1-5% performance. What are you going to do with him? Tell him to surf more? Or a beginner surfer with poor balance as previously mentioned. And I repeat - standing on a fit ball will increase their ability to balance on an unstable surface, wether it be a surfboard, wobble board, fit ball, or even a medicine ball. Especially the med ball/wobble board/fit ball, they are similar enough that one will help the other. How specific is specific? Increasing your ability to balance on an unstable surface seems pretty specific to me. You agree that someone good at surfing will generally skate/snowbard well, but only due to a generally good equilibrium, so you are saying that the ability to surf will help with the ability to snowboard? But they aren't the same thing..... I do understand what you mean about gridiron throw vs baseball, and non transference of seeminly similar skillsets, and general vs specific skills. But take someone completely unco in day to day life. Teach them martial arts, and get them to black belt level, very coordinated. You say that coordination cannot be improved generally, so a black belt will still be totally unco in day to day life? I think you look at everything too closely, and in black and white studies, without looking at elite, or even base level athletes training and things they have/currently use to improve performance in the real world.
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346