Thread: does soreness matter?

No, muscle soreness and hyperthrophy are unrelated. You get sore when you try something new, you get hyperthrophy when you're using a progressive overload.

Don't train for soreness (you should get it when you start a new program though).

I tend to equate soreness with conditioning more than anything else, once you're conditioned to a routine or exersize you get more of a "tight" but not nessessarily what I'd call sore feeling thats actually kinda pleasurable ie. you "feel" your muscles as if they are slightly pumped even on off days..At least thats how it works for me .

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I tend to equate soreness with conditioning more than anything else, once you're conditioned to a routine or exersize you get more of a "tight" but not nessessarily what I'd call sore feeling thats actually kinda pleasurable ie. you "feel" your muscles as if they are slightly pumped even on off days..At least thats how it works for me .

agreed




soreness may also be cause by the buildup of lactic acid in the muscles

i noticed this type of soreness after i do intense, but semi-cardiovascular type excercise

like lets say
sprints


alot of people will ice there muscles after doing excercises that they have associated with lactic acid soreness in the past...

im not extremely knowlegable on the subject so if you know more than me please fill in the gaps, and cross out the errors

no it doesnt mean anything. i get it when i switchup exercises/routines..

Originally Posted by plewser2006

agreed




soreness may also be cause by the buildup of lactic acid in the muscles

i noticed this type of soreness after i do intense, but semi-cardiovascular type excercise

like lets say
sprints


alot of people will ice there muscles after doing excercises that they have associated with lactic acid soreness in the past...

im not extremely knowlegable on the subject so if you know more than me please fill in the gaps, and cross out the errors

I think he is talking about when your shoulders etc stay sore for days after, not after the exercise.

Soreness doesn't not happen because of lactic acid. Heck, the "burn" is not even lactic acid. These are things we already know.

Soreness is still not fully understood, but here is a proposed reason why it happens that I think sounds pretty good:


1) stretnuous muscular contraction (esp. eccentric contractions) result in structural damage (disruption of sarcomeres).

2) membrane damage, including membrane damage of the sarcoplasmic reticulum occurs.

3) calcium leaks out of the sarcoplasmic reticulum, into the mitochondria, inhibiting ATP production.

4) the build up of calcium activates enzymes (proteases), which degrade cellular protein, including contractile proteins.

5) membrane damage combined with breakdown of muscle proteins results in an inflammatory process, which includes an increase in prostaglandins/histamine production and production of free radicals.

6) the accumulation of histamines and edema surrounding muscle fibers stimulates free nerve endings (pain receptors), which results in the sensation of pain in the muscle.

Originally Posted by P-funk

Soreness doesn't not happen because of lactic acid. Heck, the "burn" is not even lactic acid. These are things we already know.

Soreness is still not fully understood, but here is a proposed reason why it happens that I think sounds pretty good:


1) stretnuous muscular contraction (esp. eccentric contractions) result in structural damage (disruption of sarcomeres).

2) membrane damage, including membrane damage of the sarcoplasmic reticulum occurs.

3) calcium leaks out of the sarcoplasmic reticulum, into the mitochondria, inhibiting ATP production.

4) the build up of calcium activates enzymes (proteases), which degrade cellular protein, including contractile proteins.

5) membrane damage combined with breakdown of muscle proteins results in an inflammatory process, which includes an increase in prostaglandins/histamine production and production of free radicals.

6) the accumulation of histamines and edema surrounding muscle fibers stimulates free nerve endings (pain receptors), which results in the sensation of pain in the muscle.

Great points.

There are also theories out there that attempt to correlate DOMS with hypertrophy. Some believe that the inflammatory response is essential to the hypertrophy process (which is also not completely understood).

wait wait.. so once youve worked out enough, you shouldnt feel as much soreness anymore? I was always taught that if you have done a good work out your muscles should be sore because your muscles become "damaged".

Originally Posted by mR.Ska

wait wait.. so once youve worked out enough, you shouldnt feel as much soreness anymore? I was always taught that if you have done a good work out your muscles should be sore because your muscles become "damaged".

I think another element that adds to the confusion is frequency, as a Total Body W/O 3x/wk practitioner I find that the only time I experience soreness beyond a pleasant "awareness" of the muscles is when starting a new movement, coming back from a lay off or strategic deconditioning, or even when modifying a existing movement in my routine (for example switching from seated military press to standing there will be some trap soreness for the first couple W/o's from the additional "clean" to get it up into position, also even the smallest change in grip position or form can initially lead to this too , for me at least).

I think the confusion may stem from split routine adherents and H.I.T.ers who are hitting the muscle less frequently and may be experiencing soreness because frequency 1 or even 2 times a week may not be enough to condition that particular movement , although adaptation of the body as a whole may still be quite optimal for conditioning purposes overall.


Of course I should qualify all this as simply personal observations and musings not something I feel 100% sure my theory regarding it is airtight so to speak.Fascinating subject , and I find the dynamic of frequency as a possible factor in it to be worth further study.Would be curious to hear thoughts from others regarding thier own experiences with higher or lower frequency of a particular movement vs. frequency of working out overall and how it effected soreness for them.

Originally Posted by P-funk

Soreness doesn't not happen because of lactic acid. Heck, the "burn" is not even lactic acid. These are things we already know.

Soreness is still not fully understood, but here is a proposed reason why it happens that I think sounds pretty good:


1) stretnuous muscular contraction (esp. eccentric contractions) result in structural damage (disruption of sarcomeres).

2) membrane damage, including membrane damage of the sarcoplasmic reticulum occurs.

3) calcium leaks out of the sarcoplasmic reticulum, into the mitochondria, inhibiting ATP production.

4) the build up of calcium activates enzymes (proteases), which degrade cellular protein, including contractile proteins.

5) membrane damage combined with breakdown of muscle proteins results in an inflammatory process, which includes an increase in prostaglandins/histamine production and production of free radicals.

6) the accumulation of histamines and edema surrounding muscle fibers stimulates free nerve endings (pain receptors), which results in the sensation of pain in the muscle.

Just to clarify - This is different to a 400m run for example, where lactic acid buildup inhibits muscle contraction because it creates an acidic environment where the chemical reacton to cause muscle contraction is affected.

This is what I was recently taught in my PT course.

Originally Posted by slip

Just to clarify - This is different to a 400m run for example, where lactic acid buildup inhibits muscle contraction because it creates an acidic environment where the chemical reacton to cause muscle contraction is affected.

This is what I was recently taught in my PT course.

hydrogen ions inhibit muscle contraction by aggravating nerve endings and creating an acidic environment. Lactic acid is just a biproduct produced by the body to help regenerate NAD to buffer the hydrogen ions. Tell your PT teacher to read an exercise phys. book that has been published in the last 3 years.

But, this isn't explaining soreness. The information that I posted still stands. a hard 400m run is going to still create destruction to soft tissue (disruption of the sarcomeres), and lead to the cascade of effects that I posted.

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I think another element that adds to the confusion is frequency, as a Total Body W/O 3x/wk practitioner I find that the only time I experience soreness beyond a pleasant "awareness" of the muscles is when starting a new movement, coming back from a lay off or strategic deconditioning, or even when modifying a existing movement in my routine (for example switching from seated military press to standing there will be some trap soreness for the first couple W/o's from the additional "clean" to get it up into position, also even the smallest change in grip position or form can initially lead to this too , for me at least).

I think the confusion may stem from split routine adherents and H.I.T.ers who are hitting the muscle less frequently and may be experiencing soreness because frequency 1 or even 2 times a week may not be enough to condition that particular movement , although adaptation of the body as a whole may still be quite optimal for conditioning purposes overall.


Of course I should qualify all this as simply personal observations and musings not something I feel 100% sure my theory regarding it is airtight so to speak.Fascinating subject , and I find the dynamic of frequency as a possible factor in it to be worth further study.Would be curious to hear thoughts from others regarding thier own experiences with higher or lower frequency of a particular movement vs. frequency of working out overall and how it effected soreness for them.

interesting. thank you

Originally Posted by P-funk

But, this isn't explaining soreness. The information that I posted still stands. a hard 400m run is going to still create destruction to soft tissue (disruption of the sarcomeres), and lead to the cascade of effects that I posted.

Does this coorelate to the summarized labelization of "damaged muscles?"

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Does this coorelate to the summarized labelization of "damaged muscles?"

it is damaged muscle.

Originally Posted by P-funk

Soreness doesn't not happen because of lactic acid. Heck, the "burn" is not even lactic acid. These are things we already know.

Soreness is still not fully understood, but here is a proposed reason why it happens that I think sounds pretty good:


1) stretnuous muscular contraction (esp. eccentric contractions) result in structural damage (disruption of sarcomeres).

2) membrane damage, including membrane damage of the sarcoplasmic reticulum occurs.

3) calcium leaks out of the sarcoplasmic reticulum, into the mitochondria, inhibiting ATP production.

4) the build up of calcium activates enzymes (proteases), which degrade cellular protein, including contractile proteins.

5) membrane damage combined with breakdown of muscle proteins results in an inflammatory process, which includes an increase in prostaglandins/histamine production and production of free radicals.

6) the accumulation of histamines and edema surrounding muscle fibers stimulates free nerve endings (pain receptors), which results in the sensation of pain in the muscle.

Its posts like that, that make me go on reading sprees like i did last night, haha.

Thankyou, i havent done any proper research for ages.

Originally Posted by P-funk

it is damaged muscle.

Hah! My father had always said the soreness was "torn" muscles. Now he didnt mean it in the technical terms we think of injury, but he explained to a then 14-15 year old kid about the muscle being damaged, then healing while growing.

Since then I question everything, so that means I also question what Ive learned in the past too.

"You must unlearn what you have learned." -Yoda

aree you taLking about DOMs?

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Hah! My father had always said the soreness was "torn" muscles. Now he didnt mean it in the technical terms we think of injury, but he explained to a then 14-15 year old kid about the muscle being damaged, then healing while growing.

Since then I question everything, so that means I also question what Ive learned in the past too.

"You must unlearn what you have learned." -Yoda

it is a lot of things. look at what I posted it. It is damaged muscle fibers...it is adema and inflamation, etc...I don't know that it can be 100% pegged to just one thing.