Power Training

Duncans Donuts · 03-25-2007, 06:37 PM

I won't make the argument that power exercises don't work - they instigate an adaptive response in some regard, there is 0 doubt on that. I don't feel that the transfer is specific, personally. P-Funk, CP and others do.

However, as stated, power is work/time and the key to increasing power is in increasing force potential. There is no doubt muscle-tension bouts with squats, bench presses (non explosive movements), etc create enough tension to increase force output potential via adaptive response.

So you can increase power with, say, squats, by 1) lightening the weight and performing faster or 2) increasing the weight and performing slower. If you progress with weight or reps you are increasing your force potential every workout and thus power potential.

I personally feel that longer tension times are superior to explosive training for power, although I would be in the minority. Just don't confuse the idea of slow weight training hindering your powerfulness

Malley · 03-25-2007, 06:41 PM

Interesting to say the least. I will be able to add my unbias opinion to this also after I get through with my program.

And what if I say to you, look at what someone like Adam Archuleta did with it?

Duncans Donuts · 03-25-2007, 06:53 PM

I didn't discount their use as method for increasing strength and power. I feel they are inferior to methods that place muscle under more tension as far as adaptation are concerned.

I refused to do them at the juco I played football at and ran one of the fastest 40 yard times for my bodyweight.

Explosive exercises are metabolically demanding. I felt that using my efforts on squats, deads, and with on field integration was the superior method. If I had done the kind of field work, heavy squats, deadlifts and cleans I would have been exhausting myself.

Interestingly enough, I have very extensively studied form on explosive lifts because the main reason I hate them is because they are dangerous when done by someone inexperienced without a coach. When I have someone to workout with who knows what to look for, I may do them every now and again

Bakerboy · 03-25-2007, 07:02 PM

Here is what I think about your set up. I like the A, B program but I would change things a bit.

1. Ditch the iso- pushups you don't really need it
2. Base one day around a squat (fronts squats would be good) and the other day deadlift (I like to front squat with cleans) and deadlift with snatches
3. Have only one other leg movement and make it a uni-lateral one
4. Only do 5 major movements not including your core/ stabilization work
5. Put your leg work, starting with the most demanding after your Olympic movement, then do back or bench work.
6. Balance out your pushing and your pulling.

Malley · 03-25-2007, 07:07 PM

Hows this BB:

A
Hang Clean
Split Squat (Huge fan of these, for some reason they dont bother my knees even though I would think they would?)
Lunges
Bench
Dips

B
Snatch
SLDL
1-legged hypers
DB Rows
Pullups

Malley · 03-25-2007, 07:08 PM

And Duncan I could see people trying those exercises and not have a clue on how or they overdo the weight. I have been guilty of that a few times!

Bakerboy · 03-25-2007, 07:16 PM

That doesn't look too bad- a push and a pull day.

Malley · 03-25-2007, 07:18 PM

I am all about total push/total pull. I just like it that way. I am really wanting to use the iso-extreme pushups soon! Those seem hard as hell!

**P-funk** · 03-25-2007, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

I won't make the argument that power exercises don't work - they instigate an adaptive response in some regard, there is 0 doubt on that. I don't feel that the transfer is specific, personally. P-Funk, CP and others do.

However, as stated, power is work/time and the key to increasing power is in increasing force potential. There is no doubt muscle-tension bouts with squats, bench presses (non explosive movements), etc create enough tension to increase force output potential via adaptive response.

So you can increase power with, say, squats, by 1) lightening the weight and performing faster or 2) increasing the weight and performing slower. If you progress with weight or reps you are increasing your force potential every workout and thus power potential.

I personally feel that longer tension times are superior to explosive training for power, although I would be in the minority. Just don't confuse the idea of slow weight training hindering your powerfulness

true story. I am a big fan of longer tension times and using isometrics and eccentrics. This was one thing I took away from the NASM material, as well as some of Thibedeau's early writings.

**P-funk** · 03-25-2007, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double D

Hows this BB:

A
Hang Clean
Split Squat (Huge fan of these, for some reason they dont bother my knees even though I would think they would?)
Lunges
Bench
Dips

B
Snatch
SLDL
1-legged hypers
DB Rows
Pullups

Okay, now you need to look at those exercises and think about how you are going to progress them. I have an excel sheet of exercises I put as level 1, 2 and 3 and that is how I move through progressions. For example, I wouldn't have split squats and lunges on the same day. I would progress from split squats (using special tempo restrictions like DD is talking about) into walking lunges were we are cycling the leg through (going into triple flexion) to teach running mechanics.

I would, again, use a complex for the first phase instead of the olympic lifts straight up...they can be good for technique teaching well as a warm up and work capacity.

Also, I would probably use some sort of deceleration jump squat (jump stick the landing, single response) or a box jump to teach landing mechanics.

Raz · 03-26-2007, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Okay, now you need to look at those exercises and think about how you are going to progress them. I have an excel sheet of exercises I put as level 1, 2 and 3 and that is how I move through progressions. For example, I wouldn't have split squats and lunges on the same day. I would progress from split squats (using special tempo restrictions like DD is talking about) into walking lunges were we are cycling the leg through (going into triple flexion) to teach running mechanics.

I would, again, use a complex for the first phase instead of the olympic lifts straight up...they can be good for technique teaching well as a warm up and work capacity.

Also, I would probably use some sort of deceleration jump squat (jump stick the landing, single response) or a box jump to teach landing mechanics.

P-Funk, don't Plyo exercises have to be used in blocks of 4-6 weeks and then totally unused to prevent injury and such. Or is this not the case? Also, I imagine if this is true it's just meant to be for the more strenuos stuff such as depth jumps, box-box. You've already shown how one intergrates it on this thread however I would like the periodisation set-up for plyo's. Do the always go before a gym session or would they be better set-up on a conditioning day off there own?

BTW P, sorry I not replied again on your blog, I seemed to have forgot the passoword I set-up with the account however, I do browse still daily. Thanks for your reply to my question and for those of you who have'nt yet checked out Funk's blogspot - Do So!!

**P-funk** · 03-26-2007, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raz

P-Funk, don't Plyo exercises have to be used in blocks of 4-6 weeks and then totally unused to prevent injury and such. Or is this not the case? Also, I imagine if this is true it's just meant to be for the more strenuos stuff such as depth jumps, box-box. You've already shown how one intergrates it on this thread however I would like the periodisation set-up for plyo's. Do the always go before a gym session or would they be better set-up on a conditioning day off there own?

It depends on the intensity of the plyo. Depth jumps are very intense and you wouldn't want to be using them for a long time. hops are not as intense. Box jumps are not that strenuous really....think about it. You are jumping and then you are landing on a box, basically decreasing the amount of gravity reacting on your body and decreasing the amount of force that is going to impact when you hit the box. In that case, what goes up does not come down.

You can do some reactive work through all your phases, but I would cycle out of it for a few weeks to give the body a break. I think to much is just overkill sometimes.

I always do them before lifting.

**Dale Mabry** · 03-27-2007, 08:51 PM

Wow, good info.

All I really have to add is more philosophical. Begin with the end in mind, to steal one of the 7 habits. Find where you want to be when you want to be and work backwards. What is your exact timetable and goal-type stuff? I am not talking about doing power now or later, i am talking what is your end goal up until you intend on taking a nice long break?

**P-funk** · 03-27-2007, 11:45 PM

great point dale.

Raz · 03-28-2007, 05:45 AM

Top Stuff guys!!! Nice thoughts Dale and gr8 reply P.

Let me just get this straight, most programme's for an healthy athletic, layed out will look like this:

>Soft tissue/Foam roll
> Mobility Circuit
>Activation Circuit
>Pre Stretch (somewhere that is particularly tight and needs extra flexibilty, e.g. myself, hammies, hip flexors, abductor group)
> 5-10mins light cardio to raise temp. (optional)
> Plyo Exercise
> Core work, 1 rotationary or strength and 1 stability
> Resistance portion (keep in mind planes of motion and sport specificity.)
> Extra Stuff. (Energy Development perhaps?) Grip work such as farmers walk, conditioning circuits, H.I.I.T, aerobic conditioning.
> Strecth out + focus on Cooldown

That's my take on a proper programme set-up, obviously individual goals will slightly differ it. Duration without the 'Extra Stuff' would generally be 50-65mins. With the 'Extra Stuff' lasting upto 80mins.

Anything I am missing here that the experts preach?

**P-funk** · 03-28-2007, 07:34 AM

I wouldn't do the stretching after things like mobility and activation. It takes away from their purpose. If you are going to do it like that then do soft tissue stuff first, stretch, mobility/activation, train.

I think that you need to work up to getting away from the soft tissue and stretcing work. If you are chronically tight and chronically filled with trigger points you need to re-evaluate your program design.

Use the warm up to get warmed up! Activation is great if you have somethign that needs to be activated. If not, then get out there and start moving around and loosening up.

WE get all caught up into the corrective exercise modalities that it sometimes is like we train as if we were injured or just starting out all the time. Once you correct problems....warm up and train!

**Dale Mabry** · 03-28-2007, 09:33 AM

I like

Tissue work (If necessary)
Stretching (If Necessary)
Activiation (Glutes, anything else as needed)
Dynamic Movement/Mobility
Work stuff

As P said, the goal of the corrective stuff should be to not have to do any corrective stuff after a certain point. It builds a foundation, and you may need light maintenance afterward, but it isn't something you should need to do every time.

Raz · 03-28-2007, 10:24 AM

Got it guys. I understand. And I will take away Dale's template and run with it.

03-25-2007, 06:37 PM	#31
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	I won't make the argument that power exercises don't work - they instigate an adaptive response in some regard, there is 0 doubt on that. I don't feel that the transfer is specific, personally. P-Funk, CP and others do. However, as stated, power is work/time and the key to increasing power is in increasing force potential. There is no doubt muscle-tension bouts with squats, bench presses (non explosive movements), etc create enough tension to increase force output potential via adaptive response. So you can increase power with, say, squats, by 1) lightening the weight and performing faster or 2) increasing the weight and performing slower. If you progress with weight or reps you are increasing your force potential every workout and thus power potential. I personally feel that longer tension times are superior to explosive training for power, although I would be in the minority. Just don't confuse the idea of slow weight training hindering your powerfulness
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

03-25-2007, 06:41 PM	#32
Malley Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,021	Interesting to say the least. I will be able to add my unbias opinion to this also after I get through with my program. And what if I say to you, look at what someone like Adam Archuleta did with it?
	www.crossfit.com

03-25-2007, 06:53 PM	#33
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	I didn't discount their use as method for increasing strength and power. I feel they are inferior to methods that place muscle under more tension as far as adaptation are concerned. I refused to do them at the juco I played football at and ran one of the fastest 40 yard times for my bodyweight. Explosive exercises are metabolically demanding. I felt that using my efforts on squats, deads, and with on field integration was the superior method. If I had done the kind of field work, heavy squats, deadlifts and cleans I would have been exhausting myself. Interestingly enough, I have very extensively studied form on explosive lifts because the main reason I hate them is because they are dangerous when done by someone inexperienced without a coach. When I have someone to workout with who knows what to look for, I may do them every now and again
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

03-25-2007, 07:02 PM	#34
Bakerboy cat burglar Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the city of champions Posts: 4,146 Photos: 3	Here is what I think about your set up. I like the A, B program but I would change things a bit. 1. Ditch the iso- pushups you don't really need it 2. Base one day around a squat (fronts squats would be good) and the other day deadlift (I like to front squat with cleans) and deadlift with snatches 3. Have only one other leg movement and make it a uni-lateral one 4. Only do 5 major movements not including your core/ stabilization work 5. Put your leg work, starting with the most demanding after your Olympic movement, then do back or bench work. 6. Balance out your pushing and your pulling.
	No strength within, no respect without - Kasmiri Proverb

03-25-2007, 07:07 PM	#35
Malley Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,021	Hows this BB: A Hang Clean Split Squat (Huge fan of these, for some reason they dont bother my knees even though I would think they would?) Lunges Bench Dips B Snatch SLDL 1-legged hypers DB Rows Pullups
	www.crossfit.com

03-25-2007, 07:08 PM	#36
Malley Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,021	And Duncan I could see people trying those exercises and not have a clue on how or they overdo the weight. I have been guilty of that a few times!
	www.crossfit.com

03-25-2007, 07:16 PM	#37
Bakerboy cat burglar Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the city of champions Posts: 4,146 Photos: 3	That doesn't look too bad- a push and a pull day.
	No strength within, no respect without - Kasmiri Proverb

03-25-2007, 07:18 PM	#38
Malley Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,021	I am all about total push/total pull. I just like it that way. I am really wanting to use the iso-extreme pushups soon! Those seem hard as hell!
	www.crossfit.com

03-27-2007, 08:51 PM	#43
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,873 Photos: 10	Wow, good info. All I really have to add is more philosophical. Begin with the end in mind, to steal one of the 7 habits. Find where you want to be when you want to be and work backwards. What is your exact timetable and goal-type stuff? I am not talking about doing power now or later, i am talking what is your end goal up until you intend on taking a nice long break?
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

03-27-2007, 11:45 PM	#44
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,574	great point dale.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-28-2007, 05:45 AM	#45
Raz Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 505	Top Stuff guys!!! Nice thoughts Dale and gr8 reply P. Let me just get this straight, most programme's for an healthy athletic, layed out will look like this: >Soft tissue/Foam roll > Mobility Circuit >Activation Circuit >Pre Stretch (somewhere that is particularly tight and needs extra flexibilty, e.g. myself, hammies, hip flexors, abductor group) > 5-10mins light cardio to raise temp. (optional) > Plyo Exercise > Core work, 1 rotationary or strength and 1 stability > Resistance portion (keep in mind planes of motion and sport specificity.) > Extra Stuff. (Energy Development perhaps?) Grip work such as farmers walk, conditioning circuits, H.I.I.T, aerobic conditioning. > Strecth out + focus on Cooldown That's my take on a proper programme set-up, obviously individual goals will slightly differ it. Duration without the 'Extra Stuff' would generally be 50-65mins. With the 'Extra Stuff' lasting upto 80mins. Anything I am missing here that the experts preach?
	Cow Pimp - If you don't train your legs you're a dumbfuck. I'm not going to elaborate on why. If it isn't obvious to you, then you deserve the marginal results that you get and hideously unbalanced/injury prone physique that you will build.

03-28-2007, 07:34 AM	#46
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,574	I wouldn't do the stretching after things like mobility and activation. It takes away from their purpose. If you are going to do it like that then do soft tissue stuff first, stretch, mobility/activation, train. I think that you need to work up to getting away from the soft tissue and stretcing work. If you are chronically tight and chronically filled with trigger points you need to re-evaluate your program design. Use the warm up to get warmed up! Activation is great if you have somethign that needs to be activated. If not, then get out there and start moving around and loosening up. WE get all caught up into the corrective exercise modalities that it sometimes is like we train as if we were injured or just starting out all the time. Once you correct problems....warm up and train!
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-28-2007, 09:33 AM	#47
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,873 Photos: 10	I like Tissue work (If necessary) Stretching (If Necessary) Activiation (Glutes, anything else as needed) Dynamic Movement/Mobility Work stuff As P said, the goal of the corrective stuff should be to not have to do any corrective stuff after a certain point. It builds a foundation, and you may need light maintenance afterward, but it isn't something you should need to do every time.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

03-28-2007, 10:24 AM	#48
Raz Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 505	Got it guys. I understand. And I will take away Dale's template and run with it.
	Cow Pimp - If you don't train your legs you're a dumbfuck. I'm not going to elaborate on why. If it isn't obvious to you, then you deserve the marginal results that you get and hideously unbalanced/injury prone physique that you will build.

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