CNS Fatigue Article...

**Dale Mabry** · 03-26-2007, 10:46 AM

Interesting take...

BearPowered.com Blog - CNS Fatigue: Is it an issue for the â€œUnderground Secrets To Faster Runningâ€ workout?

fufu · 03-26-2007, 02:52 PM

"Sounds good…and technical… but what about recovery, which is at the heart of all our discussions. According to Dr. Hornby, this depends on the task performed, and it's difficult to separate out the effect of peripheral mechanisms vs. central mechanisms, even more so if the stimuli from a contracting muscle can indeed be sensed by different sensory fibers. In addition, there are supraspinal effects, which means that brain pathways that activate the spinal motor pools can adapt their rate of firing as well. Evidence of this can be found in Gandevia's book.

As Dr. Hornby notes, " There are also motivational factors, arousal, sense of effects, and pharmacological agents that can alter fatigue"

Interesting. I've always wondered if there was more to the "strength boost" from mental focus and excitation than a possible stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system. Or maybe this stimulation is affecting the firing mechanisms...I don't know, interesting though.

**Dale Mabry** · 03-26-2007, 04:33 PM

What I find interesting about the whole CNS fatigue and program design is that most coaches lay out a program with all CNS intensive work on the same day. It seems as though they believe that if you do any CNS intensive work at all, it will take a full 48hrs to recover, as if it is only based on the Amplitude (intensity) and the duration (Volume) has little to do with it. That is what I got from the Charlie Francis book. It makes sense to put a decent volume of it on one day since once you excite the CNS, one would suspect that there would be some potentiation on subsequent sets. I just don't see why you would do it to a point that would prevent you from doing it on other days.

Apparently this guy believes it is more volume related, based on his discussions with the researchers. I am on the fence, which is how I came upon this article.

fufu · 03-26-2007, 05:26 PM

I'm trying to soak this all in, but there are so many other factors involved as well in CNS fatigue, right? Diet, sleep...stress. I don't know how the article is pertaining to these factors.

**Dale Mabry** · 03-26-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fufu

I'm trying to soak this all in, but there are so many other factors involved as well in CNS fatigue, right? Diet, sleep...stress. I don't know how the article is pertaining to these factors.

There are many factors, but holding everything constant, I don't think the impact is great with healthy individuals doing mostly anaerobic work at acceptable volumes.

Nate K · 03-26-2007, 09:17 PM

CNS system gets fatigued because of exercise. It's just a choice of how you want to manage that fatigue?
Grouping more of it together doesn't make sense to me for better performance. Don't you recover on a timeline...it doesn't just happen at 48 hours.

**P-funk** · 03-26-2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

What I find interesting about the whole CNS fatigue and program design is that most coaches lay out a program with all CNS intensive work on the same day. It seems as though they believe that if you do any CNS intensive work at all, it will take a full 48hrs to recover, as if it is only based on the Amplitude (intensity) and the duration (Volume) has little to do with it. That is what I got from the Charlie Francis book. It makes sense to put a decent volume of it on one day since once you excite the CNS, one would suspect that there would be some potentiation on subsequent sets. I just don't see why you would do it to a point that would prevent you from doing it on other days.

Apparently this guy believes it is more volume related, based on his discussions with the researchers. I am on the fence, which is how I came upon this article.

Do they put it all on one day?

if you look at an undulating program:

day 1- power
day 2- strength
day 3- metabolic work (hypertrophy)

Day's 1 and 2 could both be considered CNS intensive, while being at two ends of the spectrum wrt training intensity. At the same time, day 3 would be CNS intensive by the defenition given by the author of that article.

Throw in there some sprint work on in between days and what's a girl to do?

Flip that and look at a program by some of the other guys:

accumulation phase
intensification phase
combination phase (strength and power....in concurrent)

That is pretty intensive all around!

I think the bottom line(s) is/are:

a) we don't know

b) manage your training volume and intensity

c) if you feel tired and burned out then do a recovery workout (that was the most important thing I took from William Kramaer's clinic a few weeks back)

d) have recovery and lower intensity days (sometimes some aerobic type cardio might not be so bad.

)

**Dale Mabry** · 03-27-2007, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Do they put it all on one day?

if you look at an undulating program:

day 1- power
day 2- strength
day 3- metabolic work (hypertrophy)

Day's 1 and 2 could both be considered CNS intensive, while being at two ends of the spectrum wrt training intensity. At the same time, day 3 would be CNS intensive by the defenition given by the author of that article.

Throw in there some sprint work on in between days and what's a girl to do?

Flip that and look at a program by some of the other guys:

accumulation phase
intensification phase
combination phase (strength and power....in concurrent)

That is pretty intensive all around!

I think the bottom line(s) is/are:

a) we don't know

b) manage your training volume and intensity

c) if you feel tired and burned out then do a recovery workout (that was the most important thing I took from William Kramaer's clinic a few weeks back)

d) have recovery and lower intensity days (sometimes some aerobic type cardio might not be so bad.

)

I was reading Boyle's article at T-mag, and he is looking to get it all in on 2 days a week for advanced athletes, which is pretty typical and falls in line with Francis and the other guys. I think that is on the low end, unless you are looking at athletes who will compete more than once a week, like baseball and basketball players. What sucks is that he doesn't say why Ferrugia believes it to be better, only that he has athletes that made great gains doing it.

IMO, I think doing a lower volume frequently is better than lumping it all in to a single day, which seems to be the trend. Of course, maybe doing it all on 1-2 days is a good way to change it up.

**P-funk** · 03-27-2007, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I was reading Boyle's article at T-mag, and he is looking to get it all in on 2 days a week for advanced athletes, which is pretty typical and falls in line with Francis and the other guys. I think that is on the low end, unless you are looking at athletes who will compete more than once a week, like baseball and basketball players. What sucks is that he doesn't say why Ferrugia believes it to be better, only that he has athletes that made great gains doing it.

IMO, I think doing a lower volume frequently is better than lumping it all in to a single day, which seems to be the trend. Of course, maybe doing it all on 1-2 days is a good way to change it up.

yea, I saw that.

I still think he can get away (even with the more experienced athletes) at having a phase that is over 4 days (like he does now) and then a phase that has the intensive stuff over 2 days and the less intensive stuff on the other two days (upper body pressing/no plyo's).

**Dale Mabry** · 03-27-2007, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

yea, I saw that.

I still think he can get away (even with the more experienced athletes) at having a phase that is over 4 days (like he does now) and then a phase that has the intensive stuff over 2 days and the less intensive stuff on the other two days (upper body pressing/no plyo's).

Yeah, it makes sense to cycle it, but what I got from the article is that he is switching to that for all experienced athletes. Knowing him, he will retool if it gets stale, though.

Francis is huge with at least 48hrs rest, but I imagine that would be the case when you are hammering out 100 yd+ sprints for a decent volume, plus it makes it easier to follow what each athlete is doing.

**P-funk** · 03-27-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Yeah, it makes sense to cycle it, but what I got from the article is that he is switching to that for all experienced athletes. Knowing him, he will retool if it gets stale, though.

Francis is huge with at least 48hrs rest, but I imagine that would be the case when you are hammering out 100 yd+ sprints for a decent volume, plus it makes it easier to follow what each athlete is doing.

yea, he said he is going to try it out over the summer. he based the article on the winter seminar he gave in winchester. I just ordered the DVD recording of teh seminar so I will report back after I see it.

I can't remeber exactly what Francis had writtin in the "training for speed" book. Was it 48hrs of rest? Or 48hrs between lifting? They had sprinting on the other days.

Francis was a huge less is more guy. I mean, if Ben dropped his time just a little bit on a run the workout was over.

03-26-2007, 10:46 AM	#1
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,873 Photos: 10	CNS Fatigue Article... Interesting take... BearPowered.com Blog - CNS Fatigue: Is it an issue for the â€œUnderground Secrets To Faster Runningâ€ workout?
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

03-26-2007, 02:52 PM	#2
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,447 Photos: 7	"Sounds good…and technical… but what about recovery, which is at the heart of all our discussions. According to Dr. Hornby, this depends on the task performed, and it's difficult to separate out the effect of peripheral mechanisms vs. central mechanisms, even more so if the stimuli from a contracting muscle can indeed be sensed by different sensory fibers. In addition, there are supraspinal effects, which means that brain pathways that activate the spinal motor pools can adapt their rate of firing as well. Evidence of this can be found in Gandevia's book. As Dr. Hornby notes, " There are also motivational factors, arousal, sense of effects, and pharmacological agents that can alter fatigue" Interesting. I've always wondered if there was more to the "strength boost" from mental focus and excitation than a possible stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system. Or maybe this stimulation is affecting the firing mechanisms...I don't know, interesting though.
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

03-26-2007, 04:33 PM	#3
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,873 Photos: 10	What I find interesting about the whole CNS fatigue and program design is that most coaches lay out a program with all CNS intensive work on the same day. It seems as though they believe that if you do any CNS intensive work at all, it will take a full 48hrs to recover, as if it is only based on the Amplitude (intensity) and the duration (Volume) has little to do with it. That is what I got from the Charlie Francis book. It makes sense to put a decent volume of it on one day since once you excite the CNS, one would suspect that there would be some potentiation on subsequent sets. I just don't see why you would do it to a point that would prevent you from doing it on other days. Apparently this guy believes it is more volume related, based on his discussions with the researchers. I am on the fence, which is how I came upon this article.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

03-26-2007, 05:26 PM	#4
fufu fiendish thingy Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,447 Photos: 7	I'm trying to soak this all in, but there are so many other factors involved as well in CNS fatigue, right? Diet, sleep...stress. I don't know how the article is pertaining to these factors.
	fufu's 1337 Journal Your diet will set you free.

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03-26-2007, 09:17 PM	#6
Nate K Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,679 Photos: 3	CNS system gets fatigued because of exercise. It's just a choice of how you want to manage that fatigue? Grouping more of it together doesn't make sense to me for better performance. Don't you recover on a timeline...it doesn't just happen at 48 hours.