Fast or slow lift??

Rissole · 06-04-2002, 06:17 PM

If i want to build size should my reps be slower?? What is the diff between lifting fast and slow?? I know i can punch out 8 reps of a certain weight fast but slow it down and its a different story altogether!!
Once again i thank you!

epimetheus · 06-04-2002, 08:20 PM

Would say slow reps for size, fast reps if you want to move weight.

ponyboy · 06-05-2002, 07:42 AM

Your own statement there should give you the answer. More muscle fibers are recruited on the negative portion of a repetition. This is one reason that you can lower a lot more than you can lift (hence negative training). The idea is to be powerful on the positive and then use the negative to slowly lower the weight. Try lifting for a two count and lowering for four.

Sometimes with clients I do ten second squats...ten seconds up and ten seconds down. Usually by about four they are running for the bathroom or falling over

craig777 · 06-05-2002, 07:50 AM

peetrips,

I agree with ponyboy, I personally do all my lifts very slowly with perfect form. I use lighter weights so that I can get at least 8 reps. I will always go very slowly on the negative, sometimes I will explode on the positive and sometimes will go slowly as well.

I think you have to figure out what works for you, because I am sure you will get some that say heavy heavy 2-3reps and just knock them out.

06-05-2002, 07:52 AM

Furthermore, fast reps make you far more prone to sprains and other injuries....

Fade · 06-05-2002, 08:09 AM

I'd go slow for size and fast/explosive for strength.

ragingbull · 06-05-2002, 08:28 AM

Going slow also gives you a chance to really squeeze the muscle.

mad_mike · 06-05-2002, 09:02 AM

If you go fast, chances are that you might bounce the weight which can lead to hurting yourself.

**Mudge** · 06-06-2002, 10:58 AM

I've asked the same question on another board, and it seems confusing to me partially.

Fast twitch fibers are those that are larger than slow twitch, fast twitch = sprinter and slow twitch = endurance/small fiber.

However, the largest people I have known have been slow and very concentrated workout types, not really fast movements. There is only one pro that comes to mind for fast movements all the time, and its a guy that was always in and out of competing because he was more a casual lifter.

Hmm?!

Rissole · 06-06-2002, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fade99
I'd go slow for size and fast/explosive for strength.

Well Fade my man we all know that size is the important thing here yes/no. Me yes!! Is there any reson for men to have explosive strength? If it's only for some sort of sport that id be doin then I only do a bit surfin occasionally. It's size that matters to me.

LAM · 06-13-2002, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ponyboy
More muscle fibers are recruited on the negative portion of a repetition

That is incorrect. The body does not selectively recruit muscle fiber types. The body does not know about reps only about the initial load that is placed on it at which point determines which muscle fiber types are recruited.

Snake_Eyes · 06-13-2002, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LAM

That is incorrect. The body does not selectively recruit muscle fiber types. The body does not know about reps only about the initial load that is placed on it at which point determines which muscle fiber types are recruited.

Well, that's not entirely true. Things like joint angles or movement speed, for example, will alter the loading placed on the muscle at any one time; the tension is never constant, so the fiber recruitments won't be either. Your essential point is correct though.

Snake_Eyes · 06-13-2002, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
I've asked the same question on another board, and it seems confusing to me partially.

Fast twitch fibers are those that are larger than slow twitch, fast twitch = sprinter and slow twitch = endurance/small fiber.

However, the largest people I have known have been slow and very concentrated workout types, not really fast movements. There is only one pro that comes to mind for fast movements all the time, and its a guy that was always in and out of competing because he was more a casual lifter.

Hmm?!

Fast-twitch and slow-twitch fibers are misnomers of a sort; they really don't have a whole lot to do with the actual contraction speed, but rather the loading or intramuscular tension created. The nomenclature is more a measure of force-production than anything else.

You can be doing a slow movement and still be using a high percentage of fast-twitch fibers.

LAM · 06-13-2002, 12:42 PM

the body knows nothing of angles or movement speed only the initial load at which point fiber recruitment is determined.

Snake_Eyes · 06-13-2002, 12:44 PM

It doesn't have to know anything. But the angle and speed can both affect the tension, correct?

So your saying basically that tension doesn't effect the fiber recruitments.

LAM · 06-13-2002, 12:50 PM

fiber recruitment does not change from rep 1 to rep 10.

Snake_Eyes · 06-13-2002, 01:02 PM

Well, that's a different topic that I'll get into in a second.

On paper you're correct-- each rep will involve "identical" patterns of recruitment, but that recruitment WILL change across the range of motion, and even vary between a fast rep and a slow rep.

However, saying recruitment doesn't change between rep 1 and 10 is categorically wrong. The fibers that were fresh in the first few reps are going to be fatigued, leaving other fibers to take up the slack-- this will by nature change the recruitment pattern. It becomes even more extreme the longer a set becomes, with the highest-threshold fibers having to come into play towards the end in order to compensate for the initially-recruited, now-fatigued fibers.

LAM · 06-13-2002, 01:43 PM

it would seem that we are in agreement then...

as fiber "type" recruitment does not change but the amount of stimulation does depending reps and time under tension placed upon those fibers.

Snake_Eyes · 06-13-2002, 01:49 PM

You're thinking very narrowly.

Fiber type *can't* change in a heavy set, say a 3RM for example, because the lower-threshold fibers can't produce the force to sustain it.

Fiber type can and does change in lighter, longer sets, especially if those sets are brought to or beyond concentric failure. At that level, the higher-threshold fibers are brought into play to compensate for the fatigued, lower-threshold fibers.

Its highly dependent on the type of training, and it does relate back to my original point, that the varying load can cause different recruitment patterns.

KryptoAllez · 06-13-2002, 02:19 PM

On the muscle fiber subject, let me just add that there are different fiber types for a reason. They are different types due to their physiology and FUNCTION. There ARE different muscle fibers (hence muscle cells) which have unique functions. You have muscle fibers that are designed for explosive power and muscle fibers designed for endurance. They differ in their physiology and will naturally be "used" or "recruited" BECAUSE of their unique capabilities. Just like you wouldn't use a weed eater to mow the grass and you wouldn't typically use a mower to edge, could be done, but not efficiently. See what I mean? Just thought I'd add my 2 cents, I love discussions about the human body.

barc77 · 06-13-2002, 02:20 PM

There is an article on Iron Mags main page that talks about this. I doubt it will solve any arguments, but it goes it rep speed over a set and the effects it will most likely have on muscle growth. I found it pretty interesting.

Snake_Eyes · 06-13-2002, 02:31 PM

Of course. No one was arguing to the contrary.

However, there is a certain subtlety in regards to the fast-twitch fibers-- there's a rather wide spectrum of activation thresholds, which is related to the force-producing and fatiguability of the fibers.

The highest-threshold fibers (really motor units or MU's) are those that produce the most force for the briefest intervals-- these are highly glycolytic in nature. They tire very easily, and thusly are most subject to growth.

A step down from these are the MU's with a slightly lower threshold-- these are hybrid fibers (glycolytic-oxidative) and oxidative fibers with moderate force-producing capacity.

Interestingly, the fiber classification, which is based on Myosin Heavy Chain (MHC) content, is entirely independent of the fiber's metabolic capacity and its neural recruitment. When you hear of fiber type conversion, this is most commonly what is being referred to.

There's also some controversy over the FT fiber classifications. You'll hear IIa and IIb tossed around pretty regularly; however, in most trained athletes, the IIb (IIx depending on who you ask) are all but gone. Its speculated that these fibers convert to IIa based on the fact that they contract *too* quickly to be of use in any loaded movement.

When training, I really avoid any attempt to train any single "fiber type" because its ultimately hopeless due to all the conflicting factors. I train to increase either A) force output (maximal strength, the high-end MU's) B) rate of force development (how many fibers are recruited and how quickly), or C) metabolic endurance (which is as it sounds- training to improve endurance in the appropriate bioenergetic pathway). Of course, I'm also a strength athlete.

Still, if you're concerned with maximal hypertrophy, these factors still apply, just in different ratios. The bodybuilder should focus on A and C; B is more of a "sport-specific" thing.

KryptoAllez · 06-13-2002, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LAM
That is incorrect. The body does not selectively recruit muscle fiber types. The body does not know about reps only about the initial load that is placed on it at which point determines which muscle fiber types are recruited...
as fiber "type" recruitment does not change but the amount of stimulation does depending reps and time under tension placed upon those fibers.

I disagree. The body's nervous system DOES recruit different fiber types depending on:

-the speed of contraction you exert

-the amount of weight you force the muscle to face

-the sustaining of the load you force the body to endure

Fast twitch fibers are meant to contract quickly and will be activated by their fast motor units. A twitch is a contraction, and slow motor units have a lower frequency for twitching and fast units have a higher frequency. Therefore, your body will naturally recruit more fast fibers when called upon to perform explosive activities. This is why sprinters have such huge legs! (That would be moi for example)

The speed at which they force their muscles to contract stimulates their higher threshold fibers.

So depending on how you train, you will both be training your neromuscular system AND stimulating certain muscle fiber types. That is why it is BEST to VARY your training, vary EVERYTHING! Why cut yourself short only training/stimulating certain muscle fibers when they ALL can contribute to hypertrophy? So vary the speed, vary the reps, vary the rest time, it definitely won't hurt!

Gee, and I thought I was done after my first post, guess not.

Snake_Eyes · 06-13-2002, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by KryptoAllez
I disagree. The body's nervous system DOES recruit different fiber types depending on:

-the speed of contraction you exert

-the amount of weight you force the muscle to face

-the sustaining of the load you force the body to endure

Isn't that what I've said?

Fast twitch fibers are meant to contract quickly and will be activated by their fast motor units. A twitch is a contraction, and slow motor units have a lower frequency for twitching and fast units have a higher frequency. Therefore, your body will naturally recruit more fast fibers when called upon to perform explosive activities. This is why sprinters have such huge legs! (That would be moi for example) The speed at which they force their muscles to contract stimulates their higher threshold fibers.

Contraction speed is really a misnomer, as I said. The fibers contract with the same speed; its the speed of recruitment that varies. The "twitch" as you put it is a neurological factor more than a mechanical one.

So depending on how you train, you will both be training your neromuscular system AND stimulating certain muscle fiber types. That is why it is BEST to VARY your training, vary EVERYTHING! Why cut yourself short only training/stimulating certain muscle fibers when they ALL can contribute to hypertrophy? So vary the speed, vary the reps, vary the rest time, it definitely won't hurt!

Sure thing. But there's also certain ways of developing those individual qualities which can lead to better results than just random variation.

KryptoAllez · 06-13-2002, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
Of course. No one was arguing to the contrary.

However, there is a certain subtlety in regards to the fast-twitch fibers-- there's a rather wide spectrum of activation thresholds, which is related to the force-producing and fatiguability of the fibers.

The highest-threshold fibers (really motor units or MU's) are those that produce the most force for the briefest intervals-- these are highly glycolytic in nature. They tire very easily, and thusly are most subject to growth.

A step down from these are the MU's with a slightly lower threshold-- these are hybrid fibers (glycolytic-oxidative) and oxidative fibers with moderate force-producing capacity.

Interestingly, the fiber classification, which is based on Myosin Heavy Chain (MHC) content, is entirely independent of the fiber's metabolic capacity and its neural recruitment. When you hear of fiber type conversion, this is most commonly what is being referred to.

There's also some controversy over the FT fiber classifications. You'll hear IIa and IIb tossed around pretty regularly; however, in most trained athletes, the IIb (IIx depending on who you ask) are all but gone. Its speculated that these fibers convert to IIa based on the fact that they contract *too* quickly to be of use in any loaded movement.

When training, I really avoid any attempt to train any single "fiber type" because its ultimately hopeless due to all the conflicting factors. I train to increase either A) force output (maximal strength, the high-end MU's) B) rate of force development (how many fibers are recruited and how quickly), or C) metabolic endurance (which is as it sounds- training to improve endurance in the appropriate bioenergetic pathway). Of course, I'm also a strength athlete.

Still, if you're concerned with maximal hypertrophy, these factors still apply, just in different ratios. The bodybuilder should focus on A and C; B is more of a "sport-specific" thing.

I think it's a good thing we're posting messages instead of discussing face to face cause otherwise I'd have to wonder if either one of us would actually be able to get a word in edgewise!

LAM · 06-13-2002, 02:56 PM

I think you guys/gals have forgotten that the "recruitment" of fibers and the "activation" of fibers are 2 seperate things.

Snake_Eyes · 06-13-2002, 03:02 PM

No, not really.

The terms are synonymous. A fiber is recruited when its activated.

KryptoAllez · 06-13-2002, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snake_Eyes
No, not really.

The terms are synonymous. A fiber is recruited when its activated.

I agree.

Lam, who said you could interrupt our nice little discussion anyway! Lol, j/k buddy.

06-04-2002, 06:17 PM	#1
Rissole 2 Samuel 24:24 Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: "OZTRAILYA" :D Posts: 8,286 Photos: 36	Fast or slow lift?? If i want to build size should my reps be slower?? What is the diff between lifting fast and slow?? I know i can punch out 8 reps of a certain weight fast but slow it down and its a different story altogether!! Once again i thank you!
	My Journal

06-05-2002, 07:52 AM	#5
Cenox Guest Posts: n/a	Furthermore, fast reps make you far more prone to sprains and other injuries....
Cenox Guest Posts: n/a

06-05-2002, 08:28 AM	#7
ragingbull DB Extrodinare Elite Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kansas Posts: 138	Going slow also gives you a chance to really squeeze the muscle.
	Striving everyday to getting Bigger, Better, and Better Looking. The later is a struggle.

06-06-2002, 10:58 AM	#9
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	I've asked the same question on another board, and it seems confusing to me partially. Fast twitch fibers are those that are larger than slow twitch, fast twitch = sprinter and slow twitch = endurance/small fiber. However, the largest people I have known have been slow and very concentrated workout types, not really fast movements. There is only one pro that comes to mind for fast movements all the time, and its a guy that was always in and out of competing because he was more a casual lifter. Hmm?!
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-13-2002, 12:42 PM	#14
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	the body knows nothing of angles or movement speed only the initial load at which point fiber recruitment is determined.
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

06-04-2002, 08:20 PM	#2
epimetheus Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: KCMO Posts: 58	Would say slow reps for size, fast reps if you want to move weight.

06-05-2002, 07:42 AM	#3
ponyboy Training Trainer Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Running around somewhere Posts: 2,608 Photos: 1	Your own statement there should give you the answer. More muscle fibers are recruited on the negative portion of a repetition. This is one reason that you can lower a lot more than you can lift (hence negative training). The idea is to be powerful on the positive and then use the negative to slowly lower the weight. Try lifting for a two count and lowering for four. Sometimes with clients I do ten second squats...ten seconds up and ten seconds down. Usually by about four they are running for the bathroom or falling over

06-05-2002, 07:50 AM	#4
craig777 Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 1,961	peetrips, I agree with ponyboy, I personally do all my lifts very slowly with perfect form. I use lighter weights so that I can get at least 8 reps. I will always go very slowly on the negative, sometimes I will explode on the positive and sometimes will go slowly as well. I think you have to figure out what works for you, because I am sure you will get some that say heavy heavy 2-3reps and just knock them out.

06-05-2002, 08:09 AM	#6
Fade I'm the daddy Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 3,007 Photos: 5	I'd go slow for size and fast/explosive for strength.

06-05-2002, 09:02 AM	#8
mad_mike is this thing on? Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 53	If you go fast, chances are that you might bounce the weight which can lead to hurting yourself.

06-13-2002, 12:44 PM	#15
Snake_Eyes Real American Hero Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 221	It doesn't have to know anything. But the angle and speed can both affect the tension, correct? So your saying basically that tension doesn't effect the fiber recruitments.

06-13-2002, 12:50 PM	#16
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	fiber recruitment does not change from rep 1 to rep 10.
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

06-13-2002, 01:02 PM	#17
Snake_Eyes Real American Hero Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 221	Well, that's a different topic that I'll get into in a second. On paper you're correct-- each rep will involve "identical" patterns of recruitment, but that recruitment WILL change across the range of motion, and even vary between a fast rep and a slow rep. However, saying recruitment doesn't change between rep 1 and 10 is categorically wrong. The fibers that were fresh in the first few reps are going to be fatigued, leaving other fibers to take up the slack-- this will by nature change the recruitment pattern. It becomes even more extreme the longer a set becomes, with the highest-threshold fibers having to come into play towards the end in order to compensate for the initially-recruited, now-fatigued fibers.

06-13-2002, 01:43 PM	#18
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	it would seem that we are in agreement then... as fiber "type" recruitment does not change but the amount of stimulation does depending reps and time under tension placed upon those fibers. Last edited by LAM : 06-13-2002 at 01:52 PM.
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

06-13-2002, 01:49 PM	#19
Snake_Eyes Real American Hero Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 221	You're thinking very narrowly. Fiber type can't change in a heavy set, say a 3RM for example, because the lower-threshold fibers can't produce the force to sustain it. Fiber type can and does change in lighter, longer sets, especially if those sets are brought to or beyond concentric failure. At that level, the higher-threshold fibers are brought into play to compensate for the fatigued, lower-threshold fibers. Its highly dependent on the type of training, and it does relate back to my original point, that the varying load can cause different recruitment patterns.

06-13-2002, 02:19 PM	#20
KryptoAllez Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Dover, DE Posts: 138	On the muscle fiber subject, let me just add that there are different fiber types for a reason. They are different types due to their physiology and FUNCTION. There ARE different muscle fibers (hence muscle cells) which have unique functions. You have muscle fibers that are designed for explosive power and muscle fibers designed for endurance. They differ in their physiology and will naturally be "used" or "recruited" BECAUSE of their unique capabilities. Just like you wouldn't use a weed eater to mow the grass and you wouldn't typically use a mower to edge, could be done, but not efficiently. See what I mean? Just thought I'd add my 2 cents, I love discussions about the human body.
	Bodybuilding isn't everything, it's just that being small, weak, and puny REALLY sucks!! Speed Skater - Last Lap, Tight Pack, Absolutely, Positively, Most Definitely Without a Doubt, NO FEAR (not even a little bit).

06-13-2002, 02:20 PM	#21
barc77 Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: work Posts: 47	There is an article on Iron Mags main page that talks about this. I doubt it will solve any arguments, but it goes it rep speed over a set and the effects it will most likely have on muscle growth. I found it pretty interesting.

06-13-2002, 02:31 PM	#22
Snake_Eyes Real American Hero Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 221	Of course. No one was arguing to the contrary. However, there is a certain subtlety in regards to the fast-twitch fibers-- there's a rather wide spectrum of activation thresholds, which is related to the force-producing and fatiguability of the fibers. The highest-threshold fibers (really motor units or MU's) are those that produce the most force for the briefest intervals-- these are highly glycolytic in nature. They tire very easily, and thusly are most subject to growth. A step down from these are the MU's with a slightly lower threshold-- these are hybrid fibers (glycolytic-oxidative) and oxidative fibers with moderate force-producing capacity. Interestingly, the fiber classification, which is based on Myosin Heavy Chain (MHC) content, is entirely independent of the fiber's metabolic capacity and its neural recruitment. When you hear of fiber type conversion, this is most commonly what is being referred to. There's also some controversy over the FT fiber classifications. You'll hear IIa and IIb tossed around pretty regularly; however, in most trained athletes, the IIb (IIx depending on who you ask) are all but gone. Its speculated that these fibers convert to IIa based on the fact that they contract too quickly to be of use in any loaded movement. When training, I really avoid any attempt to train any single "fiber type" because its ultimately hopeless due to all the conflicting factors. I train to increase either A) force output (maximal strength, the high-end MU's) B) rate of force development (how many fibers are recruited and how quickly), or C) metabolic endurance (which is as it sounds- training to improve endurance in the appropriate bioenergetic pathway). Of course, I'm also a strength athlete. Still, if you're concerned with maximal hypertrophy, these factors still apply, just in different ratios. The bodybuilder should focus on A and C; B is more of a "sport-specific" thing.

06-13-2002, 02:44 PM	#24
Snake_Eyes Real American Hero Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 221	Originally posted by KryptoAllez I disagree. The body's nervous system DOES recruit different fiber types depending on: -the speed of contraction you exert -the amount of weight you force the muscle to face -the sustaining of the load you force the body to endure Isn't that what I've said? Fast twitch fibers are meant to contract quickly and will be activated by their fast motor units. A twitch is a contraction, and slow motor units have a lower frequency for twitching and fast units have a higher frequency. Therefore, your body will naturally recruit more fast fibers when called upon to perform explosive activities. This is why sprinters have such huge legs! (That would be moi for example) The speed at which they force their muscles to contract stimulates their higher threshold fibers. Contraction speed is really a misnomer, as I said. The fibers contract with the same speed; its the speed of recruitment that varies. The "twitch" as you put it is a neurological factor more than a mechanical one. So depending on how you train, you will both be training your neromuscular system AND stimulating certain muscle fiber types. That is why it is BEST to VARY your training, vary EVERYTHING! Why cut yourself short only training/stimulating certain muscle fibers when they ALL can contribute to hypertrophy? So vary the speed, vary the reps, vary the rest time, it definitely won't hurt! Sure thing. But there's also certain ways of developing those individual qualities which can lead to better results than just random variation.

06-13-2002, 02:56 PM	#26
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	I think you guys/gals have forgotten that the "recruitment" of fibers and the "activation" of fibers are 2 seperate things.
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

06-13-2002, 03:02 PM	#27
Snake_Eyes Real American Hero Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 221	No, not really. The terms are synonymous. A fiber is recruited when its activated.