Smith Machine Do's and Don'ts. Pls help.

Duncans Donuts · 04-21-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

Bench pressing on the smith machine, ugh. Calf raises are one thing, but bench pressing in a fixed line is really horrible.

If you want to do crazy HIT stuff without anyone nearby and without any safety pins, you still shouldn't use the smith. You should use another form of training. No need for rest-pause techniques.

I've said it in the other thread and I'll repeat it here since it's practically the same thread: machines are bad because of their fixed range of motion. The smith machine is even more limited with its single vertical line of motion. Injuries are just one of the many complaints you can make against the smith machine. I'd say not using stabilization muscles in an exercise is just as bad.

And even if you'd still want to do that kind of HIT stuff, why buy a smith machine. Buy safety pins, use cables, ask a friend to come spot or build your own safety mechanism.

This is a silly philosophy and doesn't take into account the limits of barbells. You are clearly anti-HIT and I can assure you the smith machine saved my life at a time when I used it.

Saying that machines are bad is asinine. Period.

Smith machines are great for squats for a narrow stance. The fixed range of motion does limit the movement in certain plains, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. You can certainly shift emphasis to the thighs without worrying about balance on a smith machine. You can also use it for benefit without a spotter or for calves.

Changing exercises also adjusts the firing patterns of muscles, so it defitently has benefit as being an exercise that the body isn't used to.
No need for rest pause techniques? According to who?

Duncans Donuts · 04-21-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Q: I use the Smith machine extensively in my training, but I've been hearing that it's not the greatest piece of equipment ever invented. What's your take?

A: To be frank, I don't think much of the Smith machine. In fact, when I design a weight room for a client, I never ever buy a Smith machine. In fact, if a dork asks me a question about chest training during one of my workouts, I quickly prescribe him ten sets of 20 on the Smith machine as my way of getting revenge. One of the reasons that the Smith machine has so much publicity in the magazines is because it makes a great visual picture but, as far as functional transfer, it scores a big zero. It was probably invented by a physical therapist who wanted more business for himself.

What you might perceive as positives with the device are in fact strong negatives. The perceived positives are only short-lived because, in a Smith machine, the weight is stabilized for you. However, the shoulder really operates in three planes. But if you do exercises in a Smith machine, none of the shoulder stabilizers need to be recruited maximally. For example, the rotator cuff muscles don't have to fire as much because the bar's pathway is fixed. That creates a problem when the trainee returns to free-weight training. When that happens, the trainee is exposed to the three-dimensional environment called real life. Since the Smith machine has allowed him to develop strength only in one dimension, it predisposes him or her to injury in the undeveloped planes of movement.

Exercise prescription specialist Paul Chek of San Diego has identified what he calls pattern overload syndrome. In his seminar and videos, he stresses that the Smith machine bench press is one of the most common sources of shoulder injuries:

"People get a pattern overload from using the Smith machine. The more fixed the object, the more likely you are to develop a pattern overload. This is due to the fact that training in a fixed pathway repetitively loads the same muscles, tendons, ligaments and joints in the same pattern, encouraging micro-trauma that eventually leads to injury. If Johnny Lunchpail always uses a Smith machine for his bench presses, he ends up working the same fibers of the prime movers in the bench press all of the time: triceps brachii, pectoralis major, long-head of the biceps, anterior deltoids, and serratus anterior. But he can't change the pathway — the bar will always be in the same position."

Because of the mechanics of the human shoulder joint, the body will alter the natural bar pathway during a free-weight bench press to accommodate efficient movement at the shoulder. A fixed bar pathway doesn't allow alteration of this pathway for efficient movement of the joint, thereby predisposing the shoulder to harmful overload via lack of accommodation.

All in all, the Smith machine is a training piece for dorks.

What a larf. You can avoid pattern overload by incorporating other exercises WHILE you use the smith machine. You can also change the position of the seat, hand position, or simply use the smith machine sparingly. These narrow-sighted views of exercise are based on personal bias and little else.

Just like with "don't perform leg extensions" nonsense. You can avoid shearing force on the knee by avoiding a percentage of the lower range of motion. The same philosophy is true for getting benefit out of the smith machine - recognize it's faults and work around them.

Duncans Donuts · 04-21-2007, 09:24 PM

Lets all throw the baby out with the bathwater

slip · 04-21-2007, 10:28 PM

I have found it quite good to get people comfortable with squatting. They feel like they are going to fall backward with free squats etc etc.

Some of the boys at work have done 2 months on the smith and come back with much stronger bench numbers.

Saying that, I really dont like it, all points have been made about this already.

Duncans Donuts · 04-21-2007, 10:31 PM

It should not be a large basis of your routine, but it defitently has value if used in moderation and with an understanding of it's biomechanical weaknesses

gr81 · 04-21-2007, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarosuper6

Gr81... good to see you. VERY long time no see bro.

right back at'cha mayn, it has indeed been a long time. I feel I need to pop in every now and then and keep things in check..lol

NordicNacho · 04-22-2007, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

It should not be a large basis of your routine, but it defitently has value if used in moderation and with an understanding of it's biomechanical weaknesses

not even close to enough uses to buy one for personal use. but may be thats just cause im poor and lift more for playing sports then for bodybuilding. functional stength

"What you might perceive as positives with the device are in fact strong negatives. The perceived positives are only short-lived because, in a Smith machine, the weight is stabilized for you. However, the shoulder really operates in three planes. But if you do exercises in a Smith machine, none of the shoulder stabilizers need to be recruited maximally. For example, the rotator cuff muscles don't have to fire as much because the bar's pathway is fixed. That creates a problem when the trainee returns to free-weight training. When that happens, the trainee is exposed to the three-dimensional environment called real life. Since the Smith machine has allowed him to develop strength only in one dimension, it predisposes him or her to injury in the undeveloped planes of movement."

This seems true to me. lots of people at my gym this is all they use sort of sad. but there all old guys

gr81 · 04-22-2007, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NordicNacho

not even close to enough uses to buy one for personal use.

I defn agree with that

danny81 · 04-22-2007, 10:53 AM

my honest opinion is that free weights are always what you should base your workout on, but you could still use some machines or smith machines.

AKIRA · 04-22-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NordicNacho

This seems true to me. lots of people at my gym this is all they use sort of sad. but there all old guys

Ditto. Them and women. There are some people in my gym, even bodybuilders, that dont touch free weights. Just a smith machine and regular machines.

What sucks about an argument coming from me, is that I appear smaller than these bodybuilders, plus, THEIR argument would be "experience" (cuz theyre older) and that their clients "arent training to move heavy weight; dont want to get too big; never going to be nor want to be powerlifters; etc"

I WANT to play devil's advocate, but its hard to sell. The general PAYING population would take advice from this one guy over me cuz..

1. Hes older.
2. Hes competed.
3. He makes their muscles burn.

Seriously, regardless if I made sense and or even correct, I wont be able to convince some people to use free weights alone or even in a mix. Who cares though, I guess.

The reason for my concern is that now I look like Joe Jerkoff who thinks he knows everything. I am glad this thread came up and I agree with Duncans and I agree with the writer. Perhaps the writer is in agreement with Duncans's point along with camaro's, but as the article stands, it brings some light to the subject.

AKIRA · 04-22-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

It should not be a large basis of your routine, but it defitently has value if used in moderation and with an understanding of it's biomechanical weaknesses

This is what I agree with, however, the responce would be something along the lines of eliminating its rare use due to other useful movements that are just as effective and mostly better.

Leatherface · 04-22-2007, 06:37 PM

Smith machines are great for squats for a narrow stance. The fixed range of motion does limit the movement in certain plains, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. You can certainly shift emphasis to the thighs without worrying about balance on a smith machine. You can also use it for benefit without a spotter or for calves.

I have to agree with this.

I am 33 and have been lifting since I was 18. I'm also tall at 6'-4". For years I believed that free-weight squats were the only way to add mass to my thin quads.

I squatted for a looong time and my strength went way up in the lift, but my ass also got huge and my leg size never got too impressive.

On the suggestion of a friend, I tried squatting in a Smith Machine with my feet about 12 inches apart AND about a foot in front of me, almost replicating a Hack Squat.

This exercise worked wonders for my quad development and triggered fantastic gains for my legs.

I will say, however, that I have tried the Smith Machine for several other exercises and never found it to be as helpful as it was for the type of squats I was doing.

Favre · 04-22-2007, 07:40 PM

Man, I love the smith machine but only for a few exercises. CGBP, front squats, calf raises, and putting the bar all the way up and doing pullups off it. I don't regret buying it at all 7 or 8 years ago. I have plenty of other stuff though and free weights should make up the majority of your exercises. To sit here and say it's absolutely worthless though is kind of dumb. Peoople get way too caught up in what they themselves do, their own little personal preferences, and everyone else is just wrong.

Big G · 04-23-2007, 09:28 AM

Jeez! Popular thread. Who knew it'd get people so worked up!

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. Clearly the Smith Machine is a love-it-or-hate-it peice of equipment.

I paid $275 for 300lb olympic weights, deadlift olympic barbell, olympic curling (EZ) bar, a really nice commercial incline/decline bench w/preacher + leg accessories, plus the smith machine. Despite what everyone says, I absolutely love it. I couldn't be happier.

Historically I've always done dumbbell presses as my main chest exercise but, when my stablizer muscles give out, my chest is often still OK. Switching to the smith machine enables me to blast the f&^% out of my chest without a spotter (I never have a spotter at home. No-one near where I live is into bodybuilding like me.). I have full intentions of building my stablizer muscles up as best I can, but I'd still like to see some chest development too! In time, my stablizer muscles should catch up and I won't need the smith machine to get a good chest burn.

With all that said, I can appeciate what everyone is saying about the fixed up&down movement. I knew that was an issue, hence the reason I posted this thread. Whether the smith machine is worthless or not is clearly just a metter of personal opinion. For me, with only five months of weight training under my belt, I'm delighted to have this peice of equipment in my garage (especially for such a low price). The way I look at it is that I wouldv'e paid $275 for the weights, barbell, EZ bar and the really nice incline/decline bench, so the smith machine was basically free!

At the end of the day I'm just comforted by the fact that I can not crush myself using this equipment. If I want to blast some serious weight I'll be on the smith machine when there's no-one around to spot me.

Thanks everyone.

AKIRA · 04-23-2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Favre

Man, I love the smith machine but only for a few exercises. CGBP, front squats, calf raises, and putting the bar all the way up and doing pullups off it. I don't regret buying it at all 7 or 8 years ago. I have plenty of other stuff though and free weights should make up the majority of your exercises. To sit here and say it's absolutely worthless though is kind of dumb. Peoople get way too caught up in what they themselves do, their own little personal preferences, and everyone else is just wrong.

That might be an interesting idea...then again, it might hurt more on the shoulders.

04-21-2007, 09:24 PM	#33
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Lets all throw the baby out with the bathwater
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

04-21-2007, 10:28 PM	#34
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346	I have found it quite good to get people comfortable with squatting. They feel like they are going to fall backward with free squats etc etc. Some of the boys at work have done 2 months on the smith and come back with much stronger bench numbers. Saying that, I really dont like it, all points have been made about this already.
slip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 346

04-21-2007, 10:31 PM	#35
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	It should not be a large basis of your routine, but it defitently has value if used in moderation and with an understanding of it's biomechanical weaknesses
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

04-22-2007, 10:53 AM	#39
danny81 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,764	my honest opinion is that free weights are always what you should base your workout on, but you could still use some machines or smith machines.
danny81 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,764

04-22-2007, 06:37 PM	#42
Leatherface Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 109	Smith machines are great for squats for a narrow stance. The fixed range of motion does limit the movement in certain plains, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. You can certainly shift emphasis to the thighs without worrying about balance on a smith machine. You can also use it for benefit without a spotter or for calves. I have to agree with this. I am 33 and have been lifting since I was 18. I'm also tall at 6'-4". For years I believed that free-weight squats were the only way to add mass to my thin quads. I squatted for a looong time and my strength went way up in the lift, but my ass also got huge and my leg size never got too impressive. On the suggestion of a friend, I tried squatting in a Smith Machine with my feet about 12 inches apart AND about a foot in front of me, almost replicating a Hack Squat. This exercise worked wonders for my quad development and triggered fantastic gains for my legs. I will say, however, that I have tried the Smith Machine for several other exercises and never found it to be as helpful as it was for the type of squats I was doing.
	"Look what your brother did to the door!"

04-22-2007, 07:40 PM	#43
Favre 3 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 141 Photos: 3	Man, I love the smith machine but only for a few exercises. CGBP, front squats, calf raises, and putting the bar all the way up and doing pullups off it. I don't regret buying it at all 7 or 8 years ago. I have plenty of other stuff though and free weights should make up the majority of your exercises. To sit here and say it's absolutely worthless though is kind of dumb. Peoople get way too caught up in what they themselves do, their own little personal preferences, and everyone else is just wrong.
	Max Good Morning - 874 Ibs.

04-23-2007, 09:28 AM	#44
Big G Gettin' Diesel. Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cols,OH. It sucks. Posts: 1,212 Photos: 1	Jeez! Popular thread. Who knew it'd get people so worked up! Thanks to everyone for your opinions. Clearly the Smith Machine is a love-it-or-hate-it peice of equipment. I paid $275 for 300lb olympic weights, deadlift olympic barbell, olympic curling (EZ) bar, a really nice commercial incline/decline bench w/preacher + leg accessories, plus the smith machine. Despite what everyone says, I absolutely love it. I couldn't be happier. Historically I've always done dumbbell presses as my main chest exercise but, when my stablizer muscles give out, my chest is often still OK. Switching to the smith machine enables me to blast the f&^% out of my chest without a spotter (I never have a spotter at home. No-one near where I live is into bodybuilding like me.). I have full intentions of building my stablizer muscles up as best I can, but I'd still like to see some chest development too! In time, my stablizer muscles should catch up and I won't need the smith machine to get a good chest burn. With all that said, I can appeciate what everyone is saying about the fixed up&down movement. I knew that was an issue, hence the reason I posted this thread. Whether the smith machine is worthless or not is clearly just a metter of personal opinion. For me, with only five months of weight training under my belt, I'm delighted to have this peice of equipment in my garage (especially for such a low price). The way I look at it is that I wouldv'e paid $275 for the weights, barbell, EZ bar and the really nice incline/decline bench, so the smith machine was basically free! At the end of the day I'm just comforted by the fact that I can not crush myself using this equipment. If I want to blast some serious weight I'll be on the smith machine when there's no-one around to spot me. Thanks everyone.
	Goal...... DL:500lb, Sqt:400lb, Bnch:300lb Current.. DL:375lb, Sqt:335lb, Bnch:260lb Weight: 185lb (up 25lb), bf=15%ish Age:35 Training since 11/06 journal

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode