Chest workout problem

Robboe · 06-11-2002, 11:12 AM

Ah, now you two seem to be jumping to conclusions here. I've never said only do one exercise for each muscle group, although you could probably get away with it, providing you chose the "right" exercises.

Now this is a chest debate, so let's forget other muscles for now. There are slight exceptions (deltiods for instance.)

Now, why do extra exercise for chest? I've discussed this to quite a degree in past threads so i'll sumemrise it now.

Flat bench, for instance, is a great exercise. Only problem is that there are "weak links", as with any compound movement. Therefore, delts may give out before you've given your chest enough stimulation to instanciate growth. So i do weighted dips because it stresses my front delts to a lesser degree and also puts my tris in a stronger position. This exercise also aids my overall pushing strength and can assist my bench progression. Then i may move onto flyes because it's the closest to isolation you can get for the chest. This takes almost all of my delts and tris out of the picture and allows more focus on the chest. Not to mention that "isolation" tend to be good for local IGF-1 release.

By now my chest workout is done and i'm either good to go home or good to start on another muscle. Seems minimal, i know, but as long as i know i'm progressing then i know i'm growing, broadly speaking.

This applies for every bodypart i do. The back is collectively several muscles so several exercises are beneficial to effectively stimulate growth in all muscles. Not to mention arm muscles again being the weak links in pulling exercises.

Lower back and abs tend to be weak links for squats, so leg presses or hacks or extentions etc.. are performed.

Triceps only need one exercise cause, even though they have three heads, they only have two insertion points so the triceps either contracts or it doesn't. Simple as that. Whether you can stress one head more than the other is irrelevant cause it won't cause growth of any significance. Biceps have two insertions and either contracts or doesn't. No peak or lengthening can be done.

Deltoids are a different story though, but that doesn't really need to be addressed.

TJohn, why are you not liking it? Once you grasp that you don't need to do that much then you'll realise you can spend less time in the gym breaking yourself down and more time resting and growing.

**Mudge** · 06-11-2002, 11:23 AM

If you tell us how much your growing per month or year, whichever you prefer, then maybe it will lend some credence. For me however, I know that just flat benches wont cut it. You mention that your delts get tired? Not mine, that is again where we are different. Not everyone gets the same effect out of benches, wide grip benches have always bothered my shoulders if I go heavy, but it definately percentage wise affects my chest more than anything else, but leaves my upper chest a little flat (not totally, but not enough development). If I could do just one excersize for chest, it would probably be 45º dumbell presses.

TJohn · 06-11-2002, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Ah, now you two seem to be jumping to conclusions here. I've never said only do one exercise for each muscle group, although you could probably get away with it, providing you chose the "right" exercises.

Now this is a chest debate, so let's forget other muscles for now. There are slight exceptions (deltiods for instance.)

Now, why do extra exercise for chest? I've discussed this to quite a degree in past threads so i'll sumemrise it now.

Flat bench, for instance, is a great exercise. Only problem is that there are "weak links", as with any compound movement. Therefore, delts may give out before you've given your chest enough stimulation to instanciate growth. So i do weighted dips because it stresses my front delts to a lesser degree and also puts my tris in a stronger position. This exercise also aids my overall pushing strength and can assist my bench progression. Then i may move onto flyes because it's the closest to isolation you can get for the chest. This takes almost all of my delts and tris out of the picture and allows more focus on the chest. Not to mention that "isolation" tend to be good for local IGF-1 release.

By now my chest workout is done and i'm either good to go home or good to start on another muscle. Seems minimal, i know, but as long as i know i'm progressing then i know i'm growing, broadly speaking.

This applies for every bodypart i do. The back is collectively several muscles so several exercises are beneficial to effectively stimulate growth in all muscles. Not to mention arm muscles again being the weak links in pulling exercises.

Lower back and abs tend to be weak links for squats, so leg presses or hacks or extentions etc.. are performed.

Triceps only need one exercise cause, even though they have three heads, they only have two insertion points so the triceps either contracts or it doesn't. Simple as that. Whether you can stress one head more than the other is irrelevant cause it won't cause growth of any significance. Biceps have two insertions and either contracts or doesn't. No peak or lengthening can be done.

Deltoids are a different story though, but that doesn't really need to be addressed.

TJohn, why are you not liking it? Once you grasp that you don't need to do that much then you'll realise you can spend less time in the gym breaking yourself down and more time resting and growing.

TCD, just to let you know I'm not one of those that does tons of exercises and spends 2 hrs per workout. I only do 2 at the most 3 different exercises per muscle group and I'm done my workouts right around 1 hr. Also, I only work each muscle group every 7 days. And, I'm not an expert at this (obviously).

I'm still not sure about the not being able to hit the upper chest with incline presses. You definitely have a different view on training. I'll be reading your posts.

TJohn

**Mudge** · 06-11-2002, 11:31 AM

I'm 45-60 minutes at most, so I likewise dont believe in sitting there for hours. I think what is key here is that not everyone is the same (we knew this already), for me I cannot just do flat benches and have an awesome chest.

Scotty the Body · 06-11-2002, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer
Training upper chest, I have a trouble upper pec, I do incline press, but my chest is not developing, as I would like it to. I would appreciate any guidance on building a full chest

Thank you

I think you guys scared pore Kickboxer away.

If your still around Kickboxer, list your workout and your stats so we can give you some help here.

TCD, your my hero!! hehehehhehehe, I love the whole chest debate!!

Robboe · 06-11-2002, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
If you tell us how much your growing per month or year, whichever you prefer, then maybe it will lend some credence.

I realise it helps people believe, but just cause someone isn't huge doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.

Here's an example. Tell me, would you take diet advice off someone who looks like this?

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
For me however, I know that just flat benches wont cut it. You mention that your delts get tired? Not mine, that is again where we are different. Not everyone gets the same effect out of benches, wide grip benches have always bothered my shoulders if I go heavy, but it definately percentage wise affects my chest more than anything else, but leaves my upper chest a little flat (not totally, but not enough development).

Well then that tells me you are a delt-bencher so i'm not suprised you don't "feel" flat benches more. But that doesn't mean that your upper chest will lag, or that it exists.

**Mudge** · 06-11-2002, 01:59 PM

I like flat benches, but I don't feel them in the top. I could be a delt bencher somewhat though, I don't doubt that, because I have to do it a certain way or it will cause problems.

There is more too it than height, but I'm 6'2", so benches were not always my friendliest of friends, I could always curl a fair amount though but never a big bencher.

Diet advice? I could lose some pounds!

Robboe · 06-11-2002, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
I like flat benches, but I don't feel them in the top.

That doesn't matter. If the chest is contracting the entire chest is contracting - upper, lower, outer, inner. ALL.

Since you're using yourself as an example, i'll use myself: I feel more stress in my upper chest more on weight dips than i do inclines. Funny that, eh?

Neil · 06-11-2002, 02:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

Here's an example. Tell me, would you take diet advice off someone who looks like this?

/QUOTE]

Lookin good Chicken

Robboe · 06-11-2002, 03:15 PM

It was actually a serious question.

Would you take advice off him?

**Mudge** · 06-11-2002, 03:21 PM

I think it depends, I listen to just about anybody when they have something to say though.

If nothing else however, I don't want to ruin this guys thread with our yammering.

Neil · 06-11-2002, 03:59 PM

If you are talking about diet advice related to bodybuilding and strength training then no, I wouldn't take advice from him. If giving diet advice was his occupation and he had a high reputation and clients that got results then I probably would take his advice. If he is just some guy who has read a few books and likes to tell people bigger and stronger than him how to eat then I wouldn't take what he has to say very seriously.

Robboe · 06-11-2002, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil
If you are talking about diet advice related to bodybuilding and strength training then no, I wouldn't take advice from him. If giving diet advice was his occupation and he had a high reputation and clients that got results then I probably would take his advice. If he is just some guy who has read a few books and likes to tell people bigger and stronger than him how to eat then I wouldn't take what he has to say very seriously.

I'm glad you said that. The thing is, you don't know who he is from the photo so you don't know what he knows or what he's about. Just as Mudge asked about how much i've grown lately to back up my statements. At the end of the day, who you hear info from is irrelevant if the info is true.

By the way, the photo was just a wee little experiemnt on my part. The person in that photo is actually Lyle McDonald - potentially the world's leading nutritionist.

**Mudge** · 06-11-2002, 05:24 PM

You claim to have 16x" arms, which obviously the guy pictured doesn't, so that makes sense.

Anywho, what you say still goes against the grain, and against what I've noticed with my own body, so I still would like to see proof of its superiority, over multi-angular for the chest, or biceps, etc.

Scotty the Body · 06-11-2002, 05:45 PM

I guess different things work for different people, like TCD, I've gotten more benifit from doing flat and decline than I've ever gotten from inclines.
I use a 3 week split for chest that includes inclines but I've always felt that declines or dips are what has helped my bench and pec growth the most.

**Mudge** · 06-11-2002, 06:10 PM

Definately, but I think you two are rare individuals to get so much benefit from flat benches.

Josh · 06-11-2002, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Well then that tells me you are a delt-bencher....

Excuse me, but what is a "delt-bencher"?

- Josh

**Mudge** · 06-11-2002, 08:01 PM

Someone whose delts come more into play than the chest. Everyones body makeup is different, some people claim that benches do little for thier chest, those would be delt-benchers.

Josh · 06-11-2002, 08:38 PM

So if I am a delt-bencher then doing benches will not effectively help my chest. So what chest exercises do you suggest to effectively work on the chest of a delt-bencher?

- Josh

**Mudge** · 06-12-2002, 12:27 AM

Dumbell presses, if benches aren't doing it for you give those a shot. I like dumbell movements alot these days, but I switch back and forth.

Robboe · 06-12-2002, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Josh
So if I am a delt-bencher then doing benches will not effectively help my chest. So what chest exercises do you suggest to effectively work on the chest of a delt-bencher?

- Josh

So you'd want to take delts out of the equation as much as possible and try your best to put the brunt of the weight onto the pecs - ie stop doing inclines and focus more on slightly declined angles and/or dips.

Robboe · 06-12-2002, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
Anywho, what you say still goes against the grain, and against what I've noticed with my own body, so I still would like to see proof of its superiority, over multi-angular for the chest, or biceps, etc.

Well i don't have any photos right now, but i am in the beginning stages of cutting so hopefully within about 3 months i'll be more pleased with the way i look and more happy to take some photos, nevermind post them! My bodyfat is still a tad higher than i appreciate.

By the way, just for clarity, I'm not saying that inclines don't work the chest. They ARE a chest exercise, however, the amount of shoulders they recruit make it an inferior exercise for the chest in reguards to flat or dips. I also think that those people who start their session with inclines are short-changing themselves by doing such a mediocre exercise at their freshest and basically pre-exhausting their delts before stimulating their chest sufficiently.If people want to do the exercise for preference or whatever then i won't argue, but i would never recommend starting off with them. And i'd also tell them that if they're doing them for upper chest development then they can forget it.

One good thing about inclines though, is that they build your shoulders like a mofo.

**Mudge** · 06-12-2002, 08:27 AM

A really steep incline press I would believe a heavy shoulder workout from, but on a 45º I do just fine with my presses.

Yanks20 · 06-12-2002, 08:36 AM

I actually think a 45 degree incline press is a little much and will bring the shoulders into play. most recommend a 30-35 degree angle for best results, but then again whatever works best for you!

**Mudge** · 06-12-2002, 09:02 AM

I'm using a multi-position bench, my guess to angle may be poor. I can try to figure it out and work it into a post sometime. It starts out as an incline, and I'm using no more than the 2nd notch of probably a dozen or so, the last one finally making it completely upright.

Hmm, would have been nice if they put the angle stamped into it somewhere, oh well.

06-11-2002, 11:12 AM	#31
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com Ah, now you two seem to be jumping to conclusions here. I've never said only do one exercise for each muscle group, although you could probably get away with it, providing you chose the "right" exercises. Now this is a chest debate, so let's forget other muscles for now. There are slight exceptions (deltiods for instance.) Now, why do extra exercise for chest? I've discussed this to quite a degree in past threads so i'll sumemrise it now. Flat bench, for instance, is a great exercise. Only problem is that there are "weak links", as with any compound movement. Therefore, delts may give out before you've given your chest enough stimulation to instanciate growth. So i do weighted dips because it stresses my front delts to a lesser degree and also puts my tris in a stronger position. This exercise also aids my overall pushing strength and can assist my bench progression. Then i may move onto flyes because it's the closest to isolation you can get for the chest. This takes almost all of my delts and tris out of the picture and allows more focus on the chest. Not to mention that "isolation" tend to be good for local IGF-1 release. By now my chest workout is done and i'm either good to go home or good to start on another muscle. Seems minimal, i know, but as long as i know i'm progressing then i know i'm growing, broadly speaking. This applies for every bodypart i do. The back is collectively several muscles so several exercises are beneficial to effectively stimulate growth in all muscles. Not to mention arm muscles again being the weak links in pulling exercises. Lower back and abs tend to be weak links for squats, so leg presses or hacks or extentions etc.. are performed. Triceps only need one exercise cause, even though they have three heads, they only have two insertion points so the triceps either contracts or it doesn't. Simple as that. Whether you can stress one head more than the other is irrelevant cause it won't cause growth of any significance. Biceps have two insertions and either contracts or doesn't. No peak or lengthening can be done. Deltoids are a different story though, but that doesn't really need to be addressed. TJohn, why are you not liking it? Once you grasp that you don't need to do that much then you'll realise you can spend less time in the gym breaking yourself down and more time resting and growing.
	Being held down by The Man

06-11-2002, 11:23 AM	#32
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	If you tell us how much your growing per month or year, whichever you prefer, then maybe it will lend some credence. For me however, I know that just flat benches wont cut it. You mention that your delts get tired? Not mine, that is again where we are different. Not everyone gets the same effect out of benches, wide grip benches have always bothered my shoulders if I go heavy, but it definately percentage wise affects my chest more than anything else, but leaves my upper chest a little flat (not totally, but not enough development). If I could do just one excersize for chest, it would probably be 45º dumbell presses.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-11-2002, 11:31 AM	#34
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	I'm 45-60 minutes at most, so I likewise dont believe in sitting there for hours. I think what is key here is that not everyone is the same (we knew this already), for me I cannot just do flat benches and have an awesome chest.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-11-2002, 01:59 PM	#37
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	I like flat benches, but I don't feel them in the top. I could be a delt bencher somewhat though, I don't doubt that, because I have to do it a certain way or it will cause problems. There is more too it than height, but I'm 6'2", so benches were not always my friendliest of friends, I could always curl a fair amount though but never a big bencher. Diet advice? I could lose some pounds!
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-11-2002, 03:15 PM	#40
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	It was actually a serious question. Would you take advice off him?
	Being held down by The Man

06-11-2002, 02:57 PM	#39
Neil Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 171	[quote]Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy Here's an example. Tell me, would you take diet advice off someone who looks like this? /QUOTE] Lookin good Chicken

06-11-2002, 03:21 PM	#41
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	I think it depends, I listen to just about anybody when they have something to say though. If nothing else however, I don't want to ruin this guys thread with our yammering.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-11-2002, 03:59 PM	#42
Neil Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 171	If you are talking about diet advice related to bodybuilding and strength training then no, I wouldn't take advice from him. If giving diet advice was his occupation and he had a high reputation and clients that got results then I probably would take his advice. If he is just some guy who has read a few books and likes to tell people bigger and stronger than him how to eat then I wouldn't take what he has to say very seriously.

06-11-2002, 05:24 PM	#44
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	You claim to have 16x" arms, which obviously the guy pictured doesn't, so that makes sense. Anywho, what you say still goes against the grain, and against what I've noticed with my own body, so I still would like to see proof of its superiority, over multi-angular for the chest, or biceps, etc.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-11-2002, 05:45 PM	#45
Scotty the Body I'm Dead Sexxxxy!! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 4,970	I guess different things work for different people, like TCD, I've gotten more benifit from doing flat and decline than I've ever gotten from inclines. I use a 3 week split for chest that includes inclines but I've always felt that declines or dips are what has helped my bench and pec growth the most.
	Cool

06-11-2002, 06:10 PM	#46
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	Definately, but I think you two are rare individuals to get so much benefit from flat benches.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-11-2002, 08:01 PM	#48
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	Someone whose delts come more into play than the chest. Everyones body makeup is different, some people claim that benches do little for thier chest, those would be delt-benchers.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-11-2002, 08:38 PM	#49
Josh Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Indonesia Posts: 337	So if I am a delt-bencher then doing benches will not effectively help my chest. So what chest exercises do you suggest to effectively work on the chest of a delt-bencher? - Josh

06-12-2002, 12:27 AM	#50
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	Dumbell presses, if benches aren't doing it for you give those a shot. I like dumbell movements alot these days, but I switch back and forth.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-12-2002, 08:27 AM	#53
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	A really steep incline press I would believe a heavy shoulder workout from, but on a 45º I do just fine with my presses.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-12-2002, 08:36 AM	#54
Yanks20 Yanks Rule! Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 243	I actually think a 45 degree incline press is a little much and will bring the shoulders into play. most recommend a 30-35 degree angle for best results, but then again whatever works best for you!

06-12-2002, 09:02 AM	#55
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	I'm using a multi-position bench, my guess to angle may be poor. I can try to figure it out and work it into a post sometime. It starts out as an incline, and I'm using no more than the 2nd notch of probably a dozen or so, the last one finally making it completely upright. Hmm, would have been nice if they put the angle stamped into it somewhere, oh well.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks