overall mass building for shoulders?

cheesegrater · 05-30-2007, 05:06 PM

my routine as of now is-arnolds (will switch to db press in a couple weeks), barbell push press, bent over hammer raises, lateral raises

want to really attack the delts. i do low reps, high weight. will this work for overall mass, taking into account that i've looked at my other rear delt thread and taken some of the advice?

Mags · 05-31-2007, 02:29 AM

Dumbell presses do the job for me. Four sets, start at 10 reps down to 4.
I now alternate seated barbell presses with dumbell presses every week.
As for the sides of your shoulders, again, dumbell raises are best for mass. Alternate both seated and standing 'cheat' raises each week.

Depending on how long you've been training, you made need to shock your muscles, so the use of machines and cables are a good option too. It may also be worth looking at different rep ranges.

However, if not, the basics with dumbells and barbells are still best for mass IMO.

MUbodbuilder · 05-31-2007, 05:24 AM

i also like DB presses. but my favorite is upright row with a wide grip and only go to chest height. its better on your joints and only hits delts.

wrbk319 · 05-31-2007, 07:51 AM

Everyone loves DB presses! They are exciting as ****! LOL!

Witchblade · 05-31-2007, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MUbodbuilder

its better on your joints and only hits delts.

Actually upright rows are shoulder killers.

Mags · 05-31-2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

Actually upright rows are shoulder killers.

Yeah, I get a really good burn in the lateral heads of my delts as well as the fronts

Leatherface · 05-31-2007, 10:51 AM

I think Witchblade meant that they were BAD for the shoulders. I have read countless articles saying similar things.

Mags · 05-31-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leatherface

I think Witchblade meant that they were BAD for the shoulders. I have read countless articles saying similar things.

Yeah, but I think they are pretty good if you don't go too far apart with the grip and rock or swing when you lift. Controlled medium weight is fine.

I'd be more worried about putting out the lower back the way I've seen some idiots throw poundages up that are far too heavy for them, rather than rotator cuff/shoulder damage.

DbLPLatinum89 · 05-31-2007, 03:19 PM

upright rows are more op a workout for the back of your trapezius if you are doing them right. Mags is correct though, do medium weight for more reps and only go up you nipple height (most ppl raise the bar up to their chin which can cause injury)

AKIRA · 05-31-2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesegrater

my routine as of now is-arnolds (will switch to db press in a couple weeks), barbell push press, bent over hammer raises, lateral raises

want to really attack the delts. i do low reps, high weight. will this work for overall mass, taking into account that i've looked at my other rear delt thread and taken some of the advice?

For mass, the reps maybe too low.

I am training for mass too and my reps never go below 8 reps. Intensity will have to be a reduced along with rests. Constant tension is whats needed here.

As far as exercise selection, id row for my posteriors and do standing presses for the lateral & anterior.

Considering that you have a split workout, your posteriors will be hit on back day, your anteriors on your chest day, and your laterals somewhere in between. If your split has a "chest" or a "back" listed, then shoulders dont have to have as much volume given the proper intensity.

cheesegrater · 05-31-2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

For mass, the reps maybe too low.

I am training for mass too and my reps never go below 8 reps. Intensity will have to be a reduced along with rests. Constant tension is whats needed here.

As far as exercise selection, id row for my posteriors and do standing presses for the lateral & anterior.

Considering that you have a split workout, your posteriors will be hit on back day, your anteriors on your chest day, and your laterals somewhere in between. If your split has a "chest" or a "back" listed, then shoulders dont have to have as much volume given the proper intensity.

so because shopulders are hit everywhere else, doing too much weight over taxes them? are standing presses markedly better than push presses? pushes seem to spare the lower back, but i was going for as heavy as i can do sets of 5 reps

AKIRA · 05-31-2007, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesegrater

so because shopulders are hit everywhere else, doing too much weight over taxes them? are standing presses markedly better than push presses? pushes seem to spare the lower back, but i was going for as heavy as i can do sets of 5 reps

Size and strength are a relative argument around here. However, there are some guys in the gym that appear bigger than you, but arent as strong. Thats just proof that you can train for what you specifically desire.

There is still some spinal load on Push Presses, but lets not eliminate them.

Too much weight? No, too much volume may fuck you when it comes to size or strength. This is why people 'round these parts talk about movements, not body parts. A shoulder day gets work from 2 other days plus whatever you throw at it on "shoulder" day. Thats 3 days a week youre attacking the shoulder. That can be too much...and Ill go out on a limb and say it is.

Different strokes for differnt folks, but on paper, it doesnt add up. If you can do all the volume, then feel free. I did....for a while.

cheesegrater · 06-01-2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Size and strength are a relative argument around here. However, there are some guys in the gym that appear bigger than you, but arent as strong. Thats just proof that you can train for what you specifically desire.

There is still some spinal load on Push Presses, but lets not eliminate them.

Too much weight? No, too much volume may fuck you when it comes to size or strength. This is why people 'round these parts talk about movements, not body parts. A shoulder day gets work from 2 other days plus whatever you throw at it on "shoulder" day. Thats 3 days a week youre attacking the shoulder. That can be too much...and Ill go out on a limb and say it is.

Different strokes for differnt folks, but on paper, it doesnt add up. If you can do all the volume, then feel free. I did....for a while.

i was doing shoulders with back....should i revert to that? also, when i was doing that, i'd go back, shoulders alternating them...should i do all of back then shoulders, or vice versa, or does alternating accomplish anything?

current split...monday-legs, tuesday-chest, thursday-back, tri's, sat-shoulders, bi's....before, tri's and shoulders were switched around. FWIW, i was hitting PBs in EVERYTHING on this split, to the point where i felt my joints starting to take a hit, so i scaled it back a bit, changed it around with rep load...planning on hitting back to the low reps for the final month...

katt · 06-01-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

A shoulder day gets work from 2 other days plus whatever you throw at it on "shoulder" day. Thats 3 days a week youre attacking the shoulder. That can be too much...and Ill go out on a limb and say it is.
.

I used to not think this way,,,, until yesterday when I had NO power in my front delts.... they were still recooping from my push routine....

I think you're absolutely correct

Phred · 06-01-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katt

I used to not think this way,,,, until yesterday when I had NO power in my front delts.... they were still recooping from my push routine....

I think you're absolutely correct

I have split my delt work to be more in line with a push/pull/legs approach. Now I may be doing it all wrong, however this is what I have been doing for the past few months:

Push day - OH DB or BB Press plus usual chest and tri work. I figure I am pushing the wts away from the body.

Pull day - DB lateral or cable lateral raises/bent DB raises plus back and bis. Not sure on this but I kinda looked at lat/bent raises as a pull movement.

MUbodbuilder · 06-02-2007, 06:42 AM

there is a proper technique for the wide grip up rows that isnt bad for your joins and focuses on the delts if you do them right. but heavy weights arnt needed for this. i learned this way from a charles glass training video. their hard to do at first but then you get used to them-gotta use strict shoulder possition not allowing yourself to "slump" them forward.

M.J.H. · 06-05-2007, 09:29 AM

If I had to pick one exercise for shoulders I would probably go with overhead DB presses, or even push presses. Both have always worked pretty nicely at developing my shoulders.

But I also think that light controlled DB lateral raises can be a huge key, my shoulders in the past year have developed more than ever adding them to my workouts.

AKIRA · 06-05-2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phred

I have split my delt work to be more in line with a push/pull/legs approach. Now I may be doing it all wrong, however this is what I have been doing for the past few months:

Push day - OH DB or BB Press plus usual chest and tri work. I figure I am pushing the wts away from the body.

Pull day - DB lateral or cable lateral raises/bent DB raises plus back and bis. Not sure on this but I kinda looked at lat/bent raises as a pull movement.

Thats a pretty balanced routine. The only flaw it could have is lack of a higher intesity filled compound. Heavy rows, for example, make those posterior deltoids work. If youre doing 2 exercises of rows, such as cable rows & Bent Over Rows, or Db Rows & Spider rows, Id say thats plenty.

However, Id consider raises an isolation movement and therefore, have them at the end of the workout with low volume. I know some people require additional work or just like the burn in their shoulders for a peace of mind. Although, it may not be needed.

I remember for a while that raises belonged on push days. But! It does depend on where the weight is going I think. You cant do a scaption and say its not a push, but its hard to say a DB lateral raise, palms down, isnt a pull...

Phred · 06-05-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Thats a pretty balanced routine. The only flaw it could have is lack of a higher intesity filled compound. Heavy rows, for example, make those posterior deltoids work. If youre doing 2 exercises of rows, such as cable rows & Bent Over Rows, or Db Rows & Spider rows, Id say thats plenty.

However, Id consider raises an isolation movement and therefore, have them at the end of the workout with low volume. I know some people require additional work or just like the burn in their shoulders for a peace of mind. Although, it may not be needed.

I remember for a while that raises belonged on push days. But! It does depend on where the weight is going I think. You cant do a scaption and say its not a push, but its hard to say a DB lateral raise, palms down, isnt a pull...

I do both cable rows and BO rows on back days, along with deads and pulldowns. The cable raises are with light wts at 10-12 reps for only 2 sets. I then follwo up with a DB curls and preacher curls (2 sets each).

AKIRA · 06-05-2007, 11:51 AM

Thats pretty sound to me.

Ive always hated raises. Their burn is all that they offer to me. I never saw any size gains and going heavier would just cause discomfort.

If and when I do raises theyre scaptions. For posterior work, I do face pulls.

05-30-2007, 05:06 PM	#1
cheesegrater Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 465	overall mass building for shoulders? BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com my routine as of now is-arnolds (will switch to db press in a couple weeks), barbell push press, bent over hammer raises, lateral raises want to really attack the delts. i do low reps, high weight. will this work for overall mass, taking into account that i've looked at my other rear delt thread and taken some of the advice?
	"fuck it all, and fucking no regrets" James Hetfield Damage Inc.

05-31-2007, 02:29 AM	#2
Mags We ate the toys eddie! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: East London, UK Posts: 883 Photos: 8	Dumbell presses do the job for me. Four sets, start at 10 reps down to 4. I now alternate seated barbell presses with dumbell presses every week. As for the sides of your shoulders, again, dumbell raises are best for mass. Alternate both seated and standing 'cheat' raises each week. Depending on how long you've been training, you made need to shock your muscles, so the use of machines and cables are a good option too. It may also be worth looking at different rep ranges. However, if not, the basics with dumbells and barbells are still best for mass IMO.
	BUILD IT, AND THEY WILL COME. THE ONLY TIME SUCCESS COMES BEFORE WORK IS IN THE DICTIONARY. DO OR DO NOT - THERE IS NO TRY.

05-31-2007, 05:24 AM	#3
MUbodbuilder Axis Labs Board rep. Join Date: May 2007 Location: decatur, IL Posts: 39	i also like DB presses. but my favorite is upright row with a wide grip and only go to chest height. its better on your joints and only hits delts.
	Axis Labsboard rep. mubodbuilder@theaxis.net www.axislabs.net

05-31-2007, 10:51 AM	#7
Leatherface Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 109	I think Witchblade meant that they were BAD for the shoulders. I have read countless articles saying similar things.
	"Look what your brother did to the door!"

06-02-2007, 06:42 AM	#16
MUbodbuilder Axis Labs Board rep. Join Date: May 2007 Location: decatur, IL Posts: 39	there is a proper technique for the wide grip up rows that isnt bad for your joins and focuses on the delts if you do them right. but heavy weights arnt needed for this. i learned this way from a charles glass training video. their hard to do at first but then you get used to them-gotta use strict shoulder possition not allowing yourself to "slump" them forward.
	Axis Labsboard rep. mubodbuilder@theaxis.net www.axislabs.net

05-31-2007, 07:51 AM	#4
wrbk319 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California Posts: 68	Everyone loves DB presses! They are exciting as ****! LOL!

05-31-2007, 03:19 PM	#9
DbLPLatinum89 Trill Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 111	upright rows are more op a workout for the back of your trapezius if you are doing them right. Mags is correct though, do medium weight for more reps and only go up you nipple height (most ppl raise the bar up to their chin which can cause injury)

06-05-2007, 09:29 AM	#17
M.J.H. Obsessed Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Delaware Posts: 3,587 Photos: 12	If I had to pick one exercise for shoulders I would probably go with overhead DB presses, or even push presses. Both have always worked pretty nicely at developing my shoulders. But I also think that light controlled DB lateral raises can be a huge key, my shoulders in the past year have developed more than ever adding them to my workouts.
	Stats! 23 years old, 5'11.5", 206 lbs., ~8% bodyfat 380/455/655 bench/squat/deadlift (current) 405/495/675 bench/squat/deadlift (goals) The M.J.H. Chronicles

06-05-2007, 11:51 AM	#20
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,510 Photos: 3	Thats pretty sound to me. Ive always hated raises. Their burn is all that they offer to me. I never saw any size gains and going heavier would just cause discomfort. If and when I do raises theyre scaptions. For posterior work, I do face pulls.
	6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 360 (11/29) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

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