Professional Opinion

Supreme Sports · 06-03-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Are these numbers for drug-free trainees?

I still don't understand why the volume has to occur all in one sitting...

Watch pumping iron.

j/k

As the bodybuilder increases his muscular development, more and more volume is required to illict a MAXIMUM growth response. This overload must occur in one session, or the overload becomes dispersed and therefore SUBOPTIMAL for GROWTH.

**CowPimp** · 06-03-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Sports

Watch pumping iron.

j/k

As the bodybuilder increases his muscular development, more and more volume is required to illict a MAXIMUM growth response. This overload must occur in one session, or the overload becomes dispersed and therefore SUBOPTIMAL for GROWTH.

I understand your position on this. My question was why? Also, is this entirely based on empirical evidence?

Supreme Sports · 06-03-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I understand your position on this. My question was why? Also, is this entirely based on empirical evidence?

Most of what we as bodybuilders do IS BASED ON EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, but I am sure I can dig up something for ya

I would consult the PROFESSIONAL LEVEL BODYBUILDERS, and see what THEY DO. I can assure you, they are NOT training 3 muscles in one session.

Double D · 06-03-2007, 08:44 PM

Ouch....my head hurts!

Arguing with P is like a 16 year old boy arguing with Ron Jeremy about sex.....its just not worth your time. P is to educated and things on this board just dont work in a body part sense. Most guys here are for the most part natural. Some guys use a little here, but most guys are natural. Bodypart splits for natural guys arent your best bet.

**CowPimp** · 06-03-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Sports

Most of what we as bodybuilders do IS BASED ON EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, but I am sure I can dig up something for ya

I would consult the PROFESSIONAL LEVEL BODYBUILDERS, and see what THEY DO. I can assure you, they are NOT training 3 muscles in one session.

You're probably right about what professional bodybuilders, but top tier powerlifters and strongmen have huge amounts of lean body mass as well, and they don't generally train as you have suggested. The only difference is they don't need to have extremely low body fat levels to compete in their sport. That doesn't mean they don't have the mass to back up their training style.

Also, once again, are these guidelines for a natural trainee, yes or no?

ST240 · 06-03-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double D

Bodypart splits for natural guys arent your best bet.

Why not?

Double D · 06-03-2007, 09:38 PM

Are you kidding me? You've been here since 03 and your asking me why not? Hum....not to active are we?

Supreme Sports · 06-03-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double D

Are you kidding me? You've been here since 03 and your asking me why not? Hum....not to active are we?

Bro, don't come down on the man so hard, it is JUST YOUR OPINION.

IN MY OPINION, working one or two muscles per session is OPTIMAL.

**P-funk** · 06-03-2007, 09:58 PM

working one or two movements per workout is good. I hate thinking in terms of working muscles. The body is a linked kinetic chain which works together to create movement. By limiting your thinking to just a muscle group, you are limiting you thinking about how a specific movement effects all the others muscles that work to produce that movement. This is were movement impairments, muscle imbalances and potential injuries tend to be displayed.

Example:

upper push/lower pull (or hip dominant)

upper pull/lower push (or quad dominant)

Double D · 06-03-2007, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Sports

Bro, don't come down on the man so hard, it is JUST YOUR OPINION.

IN MY OPINION, working one or two muscles per session is OPTIMAL.

By splits I mean 1 muscle group a day.

Something like

Mon-Chest
Tues-Back
Weds-Legs
Thurs-Shoulders
Fri-Arms

Is just ignorant.

Supreme Sports · 06-03-2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

working one or two movements per workout is good. I hate thinking in terms of working muscles. The body is a linked kinetic chain which works together to create movement. By limiting your thinking to just a muscle group, you are limiting you thinking about how a specific movement effects all the others muscles that work to produce that movement. This is were movement impairments, muscle imbalances and potential injuries tend to be displayed.

Example:

upper push/lower pull (or hip dominant)

upper pull/lower push (or quad dominant)

Most movements utilize a PRIMARY muscle and a secondary muscle. Sometimes, even a third and fourth muscle are utilized.

BASED on this knowledge of MOVEMENTS, we can strategically train our MUSCLES using a series of muscle-specific MOVEMENTS!

So for CHEST:

4 Sets BB Flat Bench
4 Sets DB Flat Bench
4 Sets BB Incline Bench
4 Sets Pec-Dec Flies

NOW ALTHOUGH many of these chest movements ALSO utilize the deltoids, triceps, and even biceps, they PRIMARILY TARGET THE CHEST.

So long as one constructs their regimen STRATEGICALLY, you can train each muscle OPTIMALLY once or twice per week, depedning on the individual regimen.

Double D · 06-03-2007, 10:08 PM

Interesting P, hes telling you how to develop a program. I am curious to see where this goes.

ReproMan · 06-03-2007, 10:10 PM

Yanick · 06-03-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I know. While I agree, there are bad people in every field.....saying something like that is ridiculous.

I mean Yan, could you imagine someone looking down their noes at you BECAUSE of your education?

I will laugh in the face of anyone who says/thinks such things. Yes there are bad people in every industry but, were i not educated, i would still listen to the guy who went through atleast some formal schooling rather than read some BB rags and got himself hyooge. And speaking from personal knowledge, P-funk has had more than his fair share of formal and informal schooling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Sports

I was trying to make a point, and although I was being sarcastic, please don't twist my words my friend.

Sarcasm does not translate well over the internet big guy, 90+% of communication is non-verbal and sarcasm happens to fall into that category.

As well there was no twisting of words, you were asked for your credentials. You stated you had none and then went on to say you mistrusted people with credentials, there is no way to take such words out of context and twist them around to appeal to a straw man argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS

I know dozens of morons who have "CREDENTIALS" that have no idea what they are talking about. SADLY, same is the case with Doctors.

It is true that knowledge is an individual thing and credentials don't make someone knowledgeable, but they atleast show that the person has put time and effort into their respective fields.

Now the doctor thing is a different story all together, but i would please ask you not to disrespect such individuals with blanket statements such as you have done twice in this thread. Once again it is a very individual thing but i can assure you that even the most idiotic doctor will take you to school regarding the human body, maybe not steroids, whey protein and bench pressing but it takes lots of hardwork and time to become a doctor and as far as i can see you are just some juicehead who read some muscle rags and paid Rob money to come here and pimp your supps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS

I prefer not to engage in any unproductive argumentation, I am just expressing my personal opinions on what works BEST.

Its a very productive argument because it shows this community where you are coming from with your attitude, training, advice etc.

I won't post in this thread anymore because if i do it won't be long until i get banned.

Supreme Sports · 06-03-2007, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanick

I will laugh in the face of anyone who says/thinks such things. Yes there are bad people in every industry but, were i not educated, i would still listen to the guy who went through atleast some formal schooling rather than read some BB rags and got himself hyooge. And speaking from personal knowledge, P-funk has had more than his fair share of formal and informal schooling.

Sarcasm does not translate well over the internet big guy, 90+% of communication is non-verbal and sarcasm happens to fall into that category.

As well there was no twisting of words, you were asked for your credentials. You stated you had none and then went on to say you mistrusted people with credentials, there is no way to take such words out of context and twist them around to appeal to a straw man argument.

It is true that knowledge is an individual thing and credentials don't make someone knowledgeable, but they atleast show that the person has put time and effort into their respective fields.

Now the doctor thing is a different story all together, but i would please ask you not to disrespect such individuals with blanket statements such as you have done twice in this thread. Once again it is a very individual thing but i can assure you that even the most idiotic doctor will take you to school regarding the human body, maybe not steroids, whey protein and bench pressing but it takes lots of hardwork and time to become a doctor and as far as i can see you are just some juicehead who read some muscle rags and paid Rob money to come here and pimp you supps.

Its a very productive argument because it this community where you are coming from with your attitude, training, advice etc.

I won't post in this thread anymore because if i do it won't be long until i get banned.

Credentials do NOT mean that much to me, I am just being honest. They realistically translate into very little real-world application.

First of all, I am UNIQUE; I am by no means the rule, I AM THE EXCEPTION.

I have made a name for myself in the community BASED on my INTIMATE knowledge of Physiology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and all things scientific for that matter.

I went to college for business and philosophy. I am JEWISH.

Me being as JACKED as I am today is almost a MIRACLE in itself.

It was the result of KNOWLEDGE.

**P-funk** · 06-03-2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Sports

Most movements utilize a PRIMARY muscle and a secondary muscle. Sometimes, even a third and fourth muscle are utilized.

BASED on this knowledge of MOVEMENTS, we can strategically train our MUSCLES using a series of muscle-specific MOVEMENTS!

So for CHEST:

4 Sets BB Flat Bench
4 Sets DB Flat Bench
4 Sets BB Incline Bench
4 Sets Pec-Dec Flies

NOW ALTHOUGH many of these chest movements ALSO utilize the deltoids, triceps, and even biceps, they PRIMARILY TARGET THE CHEST.

So long as one constructs their regimen STRATEGICALLY, you can train each muscle OPTIMALLY once or twice per week, depedning on the individual regimen.

There are a few flaws in your approach:

a) The incline bench press (depending on angle of inclination) is not a MOVEMENT in the horizontal or transverse plane. it is more in between the transverse and frontal planes (or depending on the abduction of the arm, IE into the high five position, could even be more between transverese and sagital). Understanding the biomechanics of the exercises you are prescribing become critical when analyzing how to balance out that movement to properly strengthen the shoulder girdle.

b) Why both doubling up the pressing in the same plane in one workout (IE, bench press AND DB bench press) when you can do one on one day and then the other on another day, when you are fresher and can take better advantage of your pressing strength and stimulate the muscle to a greater extent.

**CowPimp** · 06-04-2007, 08:47 AM

I will try asking this question one more time and see if I get a response. These guidelines that you have laid out, are they for the natural trainee, or the chemically enhanced trainee?

Supreme Sports · 06-04-2007, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I will try asking this question one more time and see if I get a response. These guidelines that you have laid out, are they for the natural trainee, or the chemically enhanced trainee?

BOTH my friend, with the NATURAL trainee using slightly less(but not MUCH less) volume.

rmcfar · 06-04-2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanick

Now the doctor thing is a different story all together, but i would please ask you not to disrespect such individuals with blanket statements such as you have done twice in this thread. Once again it is a very individual thing but i can assure you that even the most idiotic doctor will take you to school regarding the human body, maybe not steroids, whey protein and bench pressing but it takes lots of hardwork and time to become a doctor and as far as i can see you are just some juicehead who read some muscle rags and paid Rob money to come here and pimp your supps.

well said

I'm sorry but if you are prepared to say that someone with 8+ years of education on the human body doesnt know what they are talking about you are a complete idiot. And saying you know what you are talking about chemically in comparison to a doctor is absurd as well. I'm sure you know more then the average joe because of the one chemistry course you took at community college but you don't hold a candle to even the least qualified doctor out there.

Supreme Sports · 06-04-2007, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmcfar

well said

I'm sorry but if you are prepared to say that someone with 8+ years of education on the human body doesnt know what they are talking about you are a complete idiot. And saying you know what you are talking about chemically in comparison to a doctor is absurd as well. I'm sure you know more then the average joe because of the one chemistry course you took at community college but you don't hold a candle to even the least qualified doctor out there.

Sorry, its the truth.

I DIAGNOSED MY MOTHER WITH DIABETES, after she suffered for YEARS without being properly diagnosed. Don't even get me started, my mother almost died. i can tell you COUNTLESS horror-stories, but I won't waste my time.

Qualifications do not = expertise

EXPERIENCE = expertise

By the way, University of Florida is not a community college.

Double D · 06-04-2007, 12:21 PM

I am pretty sure you could say P has the experience.

**Prince** · 06-04-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Sports

Sorry, its the truth.

I DIAGNOSED MY MOTHER WITH DIABETES, after she suffered for YEARS without being properly diagnosed. Don't even get me started, my mother almost died. i can tell you COUNTLESS horror-stories, but I won't waste my time.

Qualifications do not = expertise

EXPERIENCE = expertise

By the way, University of Florida is not a community college.

You honestly think you are more knowledgeable in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, medicine, etc. than an MD?

I wonder what Trouble would have to say if she were still around?

**P-funk** · 06-04-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

You honestly think you are more knowledgeable in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, medicine, etc. than an MD?

I wonder what Trouble would have to say if she were still around?

I can't even imagine.

DontStop · 06-04-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Sports

Credentials do NOT mean that much to me, I am just being honest. They realistically translate into very little real-world application.

First of all, I am UNIQUE; I am by no means the rule, I AM THE EXCEPTION.

I have made a name for myself in the community BASED on my INTIMATE knowledge of Physiology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and all things scientific for that matter.

I went to college for business and philosophy. I am JEWISH.

Me being as JACKED as I am today is almost a MIRACLE in itself.

It was the result of KNOWLEDGE.

Yes, you're unique like every one else.
And you don't think doctors come from the real world? My mom goes to AA with a doctor. Doctors are just like everybody else. being a doctor does'nt make you high society. But I'd rather go to a doctor about health matters then some guy who went to college for business and philosiphy

06-03-2007, 09:58 PM	#69
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,280	working one or two movements per workout is good. I hate thinking in terms of working muscles. The body is a linked kinetic chain which works together to create movement. By limiting your thinking to just a muscle group, you are limiting you thinking about how a specific movement effects all the others muscles that work to produce that movement. This is were movement impairments, muscle imbalances and potential injuries tend to be displayed. Example: upper push/lower pull (or hip dominant) upper pull/lower push (or quad dominant)
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

06-04-2007, 08:47 AM	#77
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,400	I will try asking this question one more time and see if I get a response. These guidelines that you have laid out, are they for the natural trainee, or the chemically enhanced trainee?
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

06-03-2007, 08:44 PM	#64
Double D Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 9,901	Ouch....my head hurts! Arguing with P is like a 16 year old boy arguing with Ron Jeremy about sex.....its just not worth your time. P is to educated and things on this board just dont work in a body part sense. Most guys here are for the most part natural. Some guys use a little here, but most guys are natural. Bodypart splits for natural guys arent your best bet.

06-03-2007, 09:38 PM	#67
Double D Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 9,901	Are you kidding me? You've been here since 03 and your asking me why not? Hum....not to active are we?

06-03-2007, 10:08 PM	#72
Double D Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 9,901	Interesting P, hes telling you how to develop a program. I am curious to see where this goes.

06-03-2007, 10:10 PM	#73
ReproMan Señor Member Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stuart, FL Posts: 6,382

06-04-2007, 12:21 PM	#81
Double D Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 9,901	I am pretty sure you could say P has the experience.