Machines only, when i first start woking out?

**CowPimp** · 06-21-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoglander

The susceptibilities to causing harm to yourself are age dependent. The young feel like they can do anything and not suffer. They learn : ). Sure exercise is a good thing if done the right way, that's a given. Talk to me in twenty years kids.

You have to remember, even though I'm 22, most of my clients are 35-55. Almost all of them do deadlifts. Now I don't start someone with back problems doing deadlifts. You have to first remove the item causing undue tissue trauma (Usually excess sitting without breaks, poor posture, improper motor patterns like an inability to separately activate portions of the lumbo-pelvic hip complex, etc.). Once you do this, and tissues are actually able to start repairing, then you can start building up things like deadlifts.

Do deadlifts stress the tissues in your spine? Certainly, but the body adapts, and it will make these tissues stronger if you are allowing for recovery. That's what resistance training does, it breaks down tissues and your body supercompensates. More often than not people blame lifting for their problems, when lifting is the least of their worries. Chronic stressors are almost always the culprit. Sometimes the culminating even is a lift, though it's usually only because the tissue tolerance has been lowered due to outside influences. Of course, sometimes the culminating even is picking up a pencil off the floor, so are you going to suggest people shouldn't do that either?

I have one client who is a great example. His issues: poor hip and thoracic spine mobility leading to compensation at the lumbar spine and excessive sitting without breaks. When I started with him, he had been getting spasms in his back once every couple of months. We work on mobility/flexibility all over the place. As well, he now takes better care to get up once or twice an hour at work to walk around, and he also takes walking breaks periodically at work. A year later, his back is spasm free and he is deadlifting his bodyweight for reps. He's 54, and he had never worked out in his life prior to training (He did train with someone else before me for several months, but the dude kept hurting him so he left).

Now, the one thing I can say to your credit on this argument is that tissue tolerance naturally decreases with age to some degree. Of course, we can slow this process way down by doing stuff like deadlifts!

Hoglander · 06-22-2007, 12:05 AM

At this point I'm willing to give in to the point I'll say that deadlifts should be approached with care, another lost given. I think we both agree there and you seem like a great person to coach the unwise. Preaching how important they are is fine so long as you add that grain of salt,IMHO. I see many people do it wrong and it's mostly young people. It didn't take long to find this for example, hehehe:

It's the perfect deadlift!

Double D · 06-22-2007, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

it's a terrible idea to start with machines. You could potentially have lots of problems when you move to freeweights because of the lack of core strength and stability. Planks and weighted situps can only prepare you so much for squats and deadlifts.

.

I was about to say something on those lines.

shotgunV · 06-22-2007, 10:38 AM

Putting aside the advantages (and the very few dis-advantages) to deadlifting, I dont know about the rest of you guys, but I find it the most testing, satisfying lift I have in my workout.. I dont understand why anyone would exclude it from there workout without very good reason.

AKIRA · 06-22-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

You have to remember, even though I'm 22, most of my clients are 35-55. Almost all of them do deadlifts. Now I don't start someone with back problems doing deadlifts. You have to first remove the item causing undue tissue trauma (Usually excess sitting without breaks, poor posture, improper motor patterns like an inability to separately activate portions of the lumbo-pelvic hip complex, etc.). Once you do this, and tissues are actually able to start repairing, then you can start building up things like deadlifts.

Do deadlifts stress the tissues in your spine? Certainly, but the body adapts, and it will make these tissues stronger if you are allowing for recovery. That's what resistance training does, it breaks down tissues and your body supercompensates. More often than not people blame lifting for their problems, when lifting is the least of their worries. Chronic stressors are almost always the culprit. Sometimes the culminating even is a lift, though it's usually only because the tissue tolerance has been lowered due to outside influences. Of course, sometimes the culminating even is picking up a pencil off the floor, so are you going to suggest people shouldn't do that either?

I have one client who is a great example. His issues: poor hip and thoracic spine mobility leading to compensation at the lumbar spine and excessive sitting without breaks. When I started with him, he had been getting spasms in his back once every couple of months. We work on mobility/flexibility all over the place. As well, he now takes better care to get up once or twice an hour at work to walk around, and he also takes walking breaks periodically at work. A year later, his back is spasm free and he is deadlifting his bodyweight for reps. He's 54, and he had never worked out in his life prior to training (He did train with someone else before me for several months, but the dude kept hurting him so he left).

Now, the one thing I can say to your credit on this argument is that tissue tolerance naturally decreases with age to some degree. Of course, we can slow this process way down by doing stuff like deadlifts!

I havent had anyone that bad.

How long did you work on flexibility/mobility until the BW deads?
What workouts did you instruct before deadlifts?

Considering machines are being avoided in this thread, I think these 2 questions would be perfect to answer in front of Hoglander.

Hoglander · 06-23-2007, 12:59 AM

Look, I do and believe in deadlifts and squats. I also use machines at the gym for the most part currently. I DON'T make a huge effort to increase the weight on exercises that compress the spine and crank on my knees. I know I can lift major amount of weight on these spine compressing exercises mentioned but I'm not trying to impress anyone here or in the gym, like I foolishly did when I was younger. Bottom line is you don't have to push the limit to get in shape on the most hardcore exercises.

Speaking for experience and professional advice that exceeds that of a CPT for heaven's sake.... you don't need freeweights if you just want to get in shape. That's where I rocked the boat in this the thread, BTW. My wife runs the treadmill, swims and does group classes. She hits a few machines now and then. She doesn't have to use freeweights. I use them as I see fit. Can someone suffer for not being moderate when going from machines from freeweights, yes. Can someone suffer from overtraining with freeweights, yes.

So where does that leave this thread. I would say to the starter of it at this point. "Be carefull when you move from machines to freeweights. All other things aside that is the consensus." I stick by the idea machines are not a bad place to start if you want to get in shape. If your don't understand how to transition to freeweights ask a real personal trainer. If your goal is to get in shape for life set real goals that you can keep and stick with. I can't imagine someone feeling inspired to stick with it that starts with the hardest exercises, IMHO.

**CowPimp** · 06-23-2007, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoglander

Look, I do and believe in deadlifts and squats. I also use machines at the gym for the most part currently. I DON'T make a huge effort to increase the weight on exercises that compress the spine and crank on my knees. I know I can lift major amount of weight on these spine compressing exercises mentioned but I'm not trying to impress anyone here or in the gym, like I foolishly did when I was younger. Bottom line is you don't have to push the limit to get in shape on the most hardcore exercises.

I'm not saying you have to push your limits. I don't make my clients hit 1RMs. That just doesn't make any sense for their goals. I do things I wouldn't make my clients do because I have different goals. Nonetheless, the deadlift is still a great exercise, and it always will be. It is extremely functional. Good luck finding a person that has never had to do a deadlift in their life in some form of fashion. I'm not suggesting pushing the limits of your strength necessarily, but you still want some level of progressive overload.

Quote:

Speaking for experience and professional advice that exceeds that of a CPT for heaven's sake.... you don't need freeweights if you just want to get in shape. That's where I rocked the boat in this the thread, BTW. My wife runs the treadmill, swims and does group classes. She hits a few machines now and then. She doesn't have to use freeweights. I use them as I see fit. Can someone suffer for not being moderate when going from machines from freeweights, yes. Can someone suffer from overtraining with freeweights, yes.

First of all, certifications are just certifications. I have met people with CSCS certifications that have less knowledge and experience than many with lower prestige certifications. If you think the certification makes the trainer, then you don't understand the profession.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about freeweights. Nothing at all. Is there a steeper learning curve? Certainly, but that doesn't mean it can't be done properly. You deal with free weights all day long. Every time you grab something off the top shelf, you pick up a box, carrying groceries, or whatever the task may be. In fact, the potential issues with a lot of machines including pattern overload syndrome, excessive isolated joint wear, and an imbalanced strengthening of prime movers without concommitant strengthening of stabilizers and neutralizers, one might suggest that machines are more likely to cause health issues.

I'm not suggesting that freeweight exercises are absolutely necessary to improve general health, not at all. However, if you don't want to listen to my opinion that freeweights are superior assuming you have the resources to learn how to use them properly (And there is almost no excuse at this point with all the free information out there), then talk to some of the most respected trainers in the industry like Stuart McGill, Eric Cressey, Mike Boyle, Dave Tate, etc. I'm willing to bet most of them would agree with much of what I've stated.

Quote:

So where does that leave this thread. I would say to the starter of it at this point. "Be carefull when you move from machines to freeweights. All other things aside that is the consensus." I stick by the idea machines are not a bad place to start if you want to get in shape. If your don't understand how to transition to freeweights ask a real personal trainer. If your goal is to get in shape for life set real goals that you can keep and stick with. I can't imagine someone feeling inspired to stick with it that starts with the hardest exercises, IMHO.

Yeah, you should be careful, because you have developed defunct motor patterns as a result of using too many machines. I'll agree with that. I also agree that sometimes machines have their place. As I said earlier, I think allowing someone to use machines if you felt their form still needed external feedback is totally reasonable. However, that situation is different, as they would only be using them temporarily and as a low percentage of their total exercise volume.

Also, I'm sorry you don't feel I'm a real personal trainer. I think I take more care in designing programs for my clients than the vast majority of trainers out there. As well, I try my best to keep myself updated on current literature. Oh, and I take classes in this field too. So, I don't know what else you want me to do to become a real personal trainer, but usually when people start trying to insult others it means they have run out of ideas. I don't really appreciate it, so try to have a more cogent discussion next time. Thanks.

**Gazhole** · 06-23-2007, 03:16 AM

CowPwnd!!

AKIRA · 06-23-2007, 08:03 AM

I dont think he was insulting, but good post nonetheless.

PWGriffin · 06-23-2007, 09:01 AM

Damn....he tipped the cow one too many times.

Witchblade · 06-23-2007, 09:35 AM

QFT in the FAQ.

Hoglander · 06-24-2007, 12:57 AM

Great post CowPimp, my bad for not spending the time I need to explain myself as you have done. I've not been trying to be insulting. I bet you spend the same time explaining to your clients, they are lucky to have you. : )

06-23-2007, 08:03 AM	#39
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,109 Photos: 3	I dont think he was insulting, but good post nonetheless.
	6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 360 (11/29) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

06-23-2007, 09:35 AM	#41
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 3,931	QFT in the FAQ.
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06-22-2007, 12:05 AM	#32
Hoglander Cleaner Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 912 Blog Entries: 1 Photos: 10	At this point I'm willing to give in to the point I'll say that deadlifts should be approached with care, another lost given. I think we both agree there and you seem like a great person to coach the unwise. Preaching how important they are is fine so long as you add that grain of salt,IMHO. I see many people do it wrong and it's mostly young people. It didn't take long to find this for example, hehehe: It's the perfect deadlift!

06-22-2007, 10:38 AM	#34
shotgunV Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 6	Putting aside the advantages (and the very few dis-advantages) to deadlifting, I dont know about the rest of you guys, but I find it the most testing, satisfying lift I have in my workout.. I dont understand why anyone would exclude it from there workout without very good reason.

06-23-2007, 12:59 AM	#36
Hoglander Cleaner Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 912 Blog Entries: 1 Photos: 10	Look, I do and believe in deadlifts and squats. I also use machines at the gym for the most part currently. I DON'T make a huge effort to increase the weight on exercises that compress the spine and crank on my knees. I know I can lift major amount of weight on these spine compressing exercises mentioned but I'm not trying to impress anyone here or in the gym, like I foolishly did when I was younger. Bottom line is you don't have to push the limit to get in shape on the most hardcore exercises. Speaking for experience and professional advice that exceeds that of a CPT for heaven's sake.... you don't need freeweights if you just want to get in shape. That's where I rocked the boat in this the thread, BTW. My wife runs the treadmill, swims and does group classes. She hits a few machines now and then. She doesn't have to use freeweights. I use them as I see fit. Can someone suffer for not being moderate when going from machines from freeweights, yes. Can someone suffer from overtraining with freeweights, yes. So where does that leave this thread. I would say to the starter of it at this point. "Be carefull when you move from machines to freeweights. All other things aside that is the consensus." I stick by the idea machines are not a bad place to start if you want to get in shape. If your don't understand how to transition to freeweights ask a real personal trainer. If your goal is to get in shape for life set real goals that you can keep and stick with. I can't imagine someone feeling inspired to stick with it that starts with the hardest exercises, IMHO.

06-24-2007, 12:57 AM	#42
Hoglander Cleaner Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 912 Blog Entries: 1 Photos: 10	Great post CowPimp, my bad for not spending the time I need to explain myself as you have done. I've not been trying to be insulting. I bet you spend the same time explaining to your clients, they are lucky to have you. : )