Which is a better indication of raw strength? A big bench or big deadlift?

**DOMS** · 06-27-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanUk

I guess it all depends on how you define "raw".

I don't think that your idea of raw exists in the gym. In the gym, all of the exercises have nice, clean, points of grip. They have all of technical guidlines that help to move the weight.

I think that the raw your talking about exists in the strong man competitions. Stuff like towing a car with your bare hands or lifting boulders. That's raw. No nice, easy to hold, handle. No carefully controlled techniques to get the job done. You just wrap your hands on to some odd item and move it.

Still, having said all that, Squats rule.

**DOMS** · 06-27-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

I look at it this way. 'An indication of raw strength' means you should be able to guess a person's overall strength by the number they lift on that lift alone. A big bench obviously doesn't mean much, because a lot of people neglect their legs.
The squat means a lot more, but maybe they lack flexibility so they could actually move a lot more weight if they were more flexible. Also, you can't tell how deep they're going. Lastly, you don't know much about their back strength or their grip strength.
Ergo, deadlifts are king. Highest force output, most muscles involved, no way to cheat on ROM.

But you also need to consider that, with the Squat, you actually have the weight you're moving right on your back!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

Anyway, the point really is moot.

No, dammit! We're going to argue about it, dammit!!!

juggernaut2005 · 06-27-2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

But you also need to consider that, with the Squat, you actually have the weight you're moving right on your back!

No, dammit! We're going to argue about it, dammit!!!

YEAH!!! I say Deadlifts thought bud not squats

PreMier · 06-27-2007, 02:46 PM

Watch WSM.. they do all kinds of different things/exercises to determine who is strongest/most powerful

StanUk · 06-27-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

I don't think that your idea of raw exists in the gym. In the gym, all of the exercises have nice, clean, points of grip. They have all of technical guidlines that help to move the weight.

I think that the raw your talking about exists in the strong man competitions. Stuff like towing a car with your bare hands or lifting boulders. That's raw. No nice, easy to hold, handle. No carefully controlled techniques to get the job done. You just wrap your hands on to some odd item and move it.

Still, having said all that, Squats rule.

Yeh thats pretty much what i would consider "raw"

Bakerboy · 06-27-2007, 03:14 PM

I say curls.

jk

I say clean and press.

**P-funk** · 06-27-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreMier

Watch WSM.. they do all kinds of different things/exercises to determine who is strongest/most powerful

yea, and none of which are the bench press.

The overhead press is a heck of a lift.

Triple Threat · 06-27-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakerboy

I say curls.

Must be true. Just about everyone in the gym does curls.

Mista · 06-27-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple Threat

Must be true. Just about everyone in the gym does curls.

Were talking wrist curls right?

KelJu · 06-27-2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

yea, and none of which are the bench press.

I think dips could easily be as important as bench press as a show of strength. Dips are the squat of the upper body.

**P-funk** · 06-27-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelJu

I think dips could easily be as important as bench press as a show of strength. Dips are the squat of the upper body.

overhead press. it is and was the measure of pressing strength before anyone ever did bench press. it is a true lift which challanges balance, core strength and overall pressing strength.

Uthinkso · 06-27-2007, 08:13 PM

I have to agree with P here, and I think I'm personally a great example that bench is a poor indicator. In fact I think you need to look at a combination of excercises instead of one end all be all movement.

I bench 185lb, squat 275, deadlift 365lb. I find I have more strength in pulling movements, but not movements overhead or away from my body. I agree that the dead incorporates more muscles than the bench, as does the squat but I'd be hard pressed to say that any one movement can be used to define overall strength.

KelJu · 06-27-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

overhead press. it is and was the measure of pressing strength before anyone ever did bench press. it is a true lift which challanges balance, core strength and overall pressing strength.

That is true. I do love the overhead press. One of my goals is to press my bodyweight. I'm really close now, maybe I will get it within the month.

Hoglander · 06-27-2007, 08:25 PM

When I think of raw strength I think of the those heavy big balls they lift up in the Strongest Man competition. I don't think of traditional weights. You can train for any lift but when I think of raw out of the gym power... really big balls comes to mind(have fun with that). For real though.. guys that trains in the gym but can use it in real life has my vote. Are you going to bench a car off your friend's leg?

KentDog · 06-27-2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit2169

Squat - Loading the bar on your back and squatting ATG and back up
Deadlift - Pulling raw from the floor with your hands only
Bench - Lying on a bench (which is supporting you) and pressing the bar

The deadlift is far less about pulling with your hands as opposed to pushing with your legs.

juggernaut2005 · 06-28-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KentDog

The deadlift is far less about pulling with your hands as opposed to pushing with your legs.

I agree!

Todd Bostrom · 06-28-2007, 06:21 AM

Deadlift

ReproMan · 06-28-2007, 06:33 AM

A belly to belly suplex.

**Gazhole** · 06-28-2007, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mista

Were talking wrist curls right?

Seated wrist curls.

Uthinkso · 06-28-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReproMan

A belly to belly suplex.

Well a power bomb uses a vertical lift, so maybe thats better

Double D · 06-28-2007, 11:57 AM

Heres mt thought on it:

Most people can dead around 400lbs around here, but how many guys are squatting more than that? Not many at all! But thats just my take, both are impressive, but to load 400+ on your shoulders and squat down and be able to sustain all that weight on your shoulders is more impressive to me than simply picking a weight off the ground.

PreMier · 06-28-2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KentDog

The deadlift is far less about pulling with your hands as opposed to pushing with your legs.

I think he meant without wrist straps

AKIRA · 06-28-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double D

Heres mt thought on it:

Most people can dead around 400lbs around here, but how many guys are squatting more than that? Not many at all! But thats just my take, both are impressive, but to load 400+ on your shoulders and squat down and be able to sustain all that weight on your shoulders is more impressive to me than simply picking a weight off the ground.

Thats true.

However, dont cut out deadlifts on technicalities either, especially Conventionals.

Your grip might make the lift impossible, so that may have to be adjusted.
Overextension of the spine (thats what I did)
How about when the bar goes passed the knees? Thats a bit difficult for some people.
Bloody shins?
Prevention of bouncing the weight off the floor (though thats easy to avoid)

Mags · 06-29-2007, 07:51 AM

I think the deadlift is the most impressive. When you take the bar to the floor, you know it's on!

Bench and Squat (although both very impressive if heavy) require lifting the bar off a rack etc (I know this doesn't make it an easier and is just common sense), but there's just something exhilirating about defeating gravity from the start - prizing up that heavy weight from the very ground itself. This is why the deadlift is the most basic and true of lifts.

06-27-2007, 02:46 PM	#34
PreMier happy sumo Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 20,999 Photos: 1	Watch WSM.. they do all kinds of different things/exercises to determine who is strongest/most powerful
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06-27-2007, 03:14 PM	#36
Bakerboy cat burglar Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the city of champions Posts: 4,146 Photos: 3	I say curls. jk I say clean and press.
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06-27-2007, 08:13 PM	#42
Uthinkso Go on....DO IT!!! Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 1,294 Photos: 3	I have to agree with P here, and I think I'm personally a great example that bench is a poor indicator. In fact I think you need to look at a combination of excercises instead of one end all be all movement. I bench 185lb, squat 275, deadlift 365lb. I find I have more strength in pulling movements, but not movements overhead or away from my body. I agree that the dead incorporates more muscles than the bench, as does the squat but I'd be hard pressed to say that any one movement can be used to define overall strength.
	"Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the face".-Mike Tyson http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJ...ner=ndagostino Myspace

06-28-2007, 06:21 AM	#47
Todd Bostrom Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: United States Posts: 31	Thats easy..... Deadlift
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06-29-2007, 07:51 AM	#54
Mags We ate the toys eddie! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: East London, UK Posts: 871 Photos: 8	I think the deadlift is the most impressive. When you take the bar to the floor, you know it's on! Bench and Squat (although both very impressive if heavy) require lifting the bar off a rack etc (I know this doesn't make it an easier and is just common sense), but there's just something exhilirating about defeating gravity from the start - prizing up that heavy weight from the very ground itself. This is why the deadlift is the most basic and true of lifts.
	BUILD IT, AND THEY WILL COME. THE ONLY TIME SUCCESS COMES BEFORE WORK IS IN THE DICTIONARY. DO OR DO NOT - THERE IS NO TRY.

06-27-2007, 08:25 PM	#44
Hoglander Cleaner Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 912 Blog Entries: 1 Photos: 10	When I think of raw strength I think of the those heavy big balls they lift up in the Strongest Man competition. I don't think of traditional weights. You can train for any lift but when I think of raw out of the gym power... really big balls comes to mind(have fun with that). For real though.. guys that trains in the gym but can use it in real life has my vote. Are you going to bench a car off your friend's leg?

06-28-2007, 06:33 AM	#48
ReproMan Señor Member Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stuart, FL Posts: 6,355	A belly to belly suplex.

06-28-2007, 11:57 AM	#51
Double D Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9,694	Heres mt thought on it: Most people can dead around 400lbs around here, but how many guys are squatting more than that? Not many at all! But thats just my take, both are impressive, but to load 400+ on your shoulders and squat down and be able to sustain all that weight on your shoulders is more impressive to me than simply picking a weight off the ground.