Some advice based on gym observations -

**Duncans Donuts** · 08-30-2007, 05:53 PM

I am not meaning to imply that the people who frequent this forum are the average trainee, but generally speaking the average person at the gym (from my own personal experience) knows something less than anything about working out.

For reference, I am a CPT3 at 24 Hour Fitness. I work at the 5th most frequented 24 club in the U.S.

I have been observing typical gym goers, and they can be generally divided into three types. Genetic freaks, genetic freaks on drugs, and "the rest". The problem is the latter of the groups blindly follow the strategies of the two formers, and the results are nothing short of pitiful.

What's even more pitiful is watching the genetic superiors doing nothing but push dominant exercises - and bicep curls - the result being 200 pound physiques that should be in the 210-220 range within six months. Partial squats, no deadlifts, behind the neck exercises (which WILL impinge your rotator cuff with enough sets, I promise you, and likely screw up any opportunity you do have to continue lifting) demonstrate nothing other than utter laziness and distorted physiques.

As the largest fellow at my gym says as he talks to my brother and I doing squats, deadlifts, and t-bar rows: "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but nobody wanna deadlift." Echoing the wise words of Ronnie Coleman.

I'm not sure if exercise machines have been a god-send or a nightmare for gyms in general. When used with free-weight exercises, properly designed machines are as good as any exercise you can do (minus squats and deadlifts) as far as specific muscle development is concerned. Watching the masses use them demonstrate what I consider to be insipid, pathetic wasting of time.

Of the people I observe, people looking to typically optimize growth and development, I submit that maybe 10 percent do squats and deadlifts. But giving an unfair benefit, I will go with 20 percent, meaning that 80 percent of the people who are trying to get "big" are literally neglecting the two exercises that will do anything to the average physique in terms of real gains and benefit.

Regardless of your training philosophy, whether it be volume, intensity, westside, etc. , etc. , I would take squats and deadlifts and pick them over any shoulder, arm, ab, or chest exercise combined. And what's most interesting is you will probably get better results for your chest, arms, and shoulders performing nothing but squats and deadlifts relative to a routine that combines 30 exercises and ignores squats and deads.

It also appears to me that at least half of the routines posted here asking for advice include little or no back or leg work. So here's a nickels worth of free advice: if you are feeling small and not getting results, lower the volume, throw out your old routine and focus on bench presses, chin ups, militar presses, deadlifts, and squats. Or hell, just focus on squats and deadlifts for a month. They are brutally hard but fantastically productive.

I also would advice any person who comes in here and posts a routine to read this, and if you aren't doing any back or leg work, to build your routine around them. Because of the drastic imposition on the body, these exercises create an environment in the body that tends toward rapid strength and muscle development.

Thanks.

**KelJu** · 08-30-2007, 05:58 PM

Nice, but this has been covered a billion times.

**Duncans Donuts** · 08-30-2007, 06:02 PM

Well as this training forum is sputtering to survive and people continue to come in here with routines that are pathetic jokes, my anecdote regarding people coming into gyms and doing nothing but wasting effort is relevant.

**min0 lee** · 08-30-2007, 06:36 PM

You didn't waste your time, it was a good read.

routines that are pathetic jokes

But that wasn't necessary, this makes you sound...cocky.
No one is perfect, maybe instead of belittling people you can give constructive criticism without hurting them.
Your a highly intelligent young man, use it for goodness.

Remember these words from me when your rich and famous.

Whatever life holds in store for you, you will never forget these words: "With great power comes great responsibility." This is my gift, my curse. Who am I? I'm min0 Lee....you see....

**PreMier** · 08-30-2007, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Well as this training forum is sputtering to survive and people continue to come in here with routines that are pathetic jokes, my anecdote regarding people coming into gyms and doing nothing but wasting effort is relevant.

You have to realize that there are constantly NEW people coming online looking for advise and to better themselves. Ironmag is a great place for people to learn something new IMO.

So you will always have to see the posts like you mentioned above.. just like you will always see the 'how do I build my upper chest' or 'does creatine work' etc. If you honestly get sick of it, then ignore it.. or find some kind of advanced training forum.

People have different goals.. some want to be 'fit' and 'tone' and thats it. Some want to be monsters(strength/size). So you have to learn to differentiate between the two, and spend your time with the ones that truly want to learn and get the best out of themselves. I understand its frustrating.. and im kinda playing devils advocate.. but honestly what are you gonna do? You can give people some helpful advise(even though its been posted a thousand times), or you can be a dick to them, and toss them a few links which they probably wont read anyway.

**KelJu** · 08-30-2007, 06:40 PM

Honestly, we act like a spoiled preppy click most of the time, and that is bad for the life of the forum. I am guilty, so I am not pointing fingers. A little patience would help everyone.

**Duncans Donuts** · 08-30-2007, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

You didn't waste your time, it was a good read.

But that wasn't necessary, this makes you sound...cocky.
No one is perfect, maybe instead of belittling people you can give constructive criticism without hurting them.
Your a highly intelligent young man, use it for goodness.

Remember these words from me when your rich and famous.

Whatever life holds in store for you, you will never forget these words: "With great power comes great responsibility." This is my gift, my curse. Who am I? I'm min0 Lee....you see....

Do people benefit more from straight forward talk or from handling them with kid gloves?

Simply but, a great number of routines posted on here are pathetic jokes. People do exercises and routines that will end up harming them, screwing up their rotator cuffs or destroying their knees, hips, and ankles.

It took a very pointed, honest approach to get me out of my mistakes. I don't apologize for being brutally honest.

**Duncans Donuts** · 08-30-2007, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by PreMier

You have to realize that there are constantly NEW people coming online looking for advise and to better themselves. Ironmag is a great place for people to learn something new IMO.

So you will always have to see the posts like you mentioned above.. just like you will always see the 'how do I build my upper chest' or 'does creatine work' etc. If you honestly get sick of it, then ignore it.. or find some kind of advanced training forum.

People have different goals.. some want to be 'fit' and 'tone' and thats it. Some want to be monsters(strength/size). So you have to learn to differentiate between the two, and spend your time with the ones that truly want to learn and get the best out of themselves. I understand its frustrating.. and im kinda playing devils advocate.. but honestly what are you gonna do? You can give people some helpful advise(even though its been posted a thousand times), or you can be a dick to them, and toss them a few links which they probably wont read anyway.

Overall fitness is achieved through balance. Correcting issues with posture, balance, stability. Deadlifts and squats will benefit the entire population, regardless of goals.

And in the original post I very specifically addressed people who were trying to be bodybuilders or achieve maximum hypertrophy.

**min0 lee** · 08-30-2007, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Do people benefit more from straight forward talk or from handling them with kid gloves?

Simply but, a great number of routines posted on here are pathetic jokes. People do exercises and routines that will end up harming them, screwing up their rotator cuffs or destroying their knees, hips, and ankles.

It took a very pointed, honest approach to get me out of my mistakes. I don't apologize for being brutally honest.

Fair enough, I've come to understand the type of person you are. Like a drill sargeant more or less.

Some people do need a kick in the ass.

**Duncans Donuts** · 08-30-2007, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

Fair enough, I've come to understand the type of person you are. Like a drill sargeant more or less.

Some people do need a kick in the ass.

Here's something you probably didn't know about me:

I used to be insane for volume training. I would work out 8 or 9 days before a break, 2 or 2 and a half hours WHILE working at UPS in the middle of the night.

I did this for two years with little or no break, was so exhausted that I had a nervous breakdown because of my psychological addiction to exercise.

What's even more interesting is I did not do squats or deadlifts that entire time. If someone had smacked me upside the head, I might have saved two years of my life. It took reading a Mentzer book (I don't agree with Mentzer, btw) and changing my major to exercise physiology before I understood the cause & effect relationship of exercise.

In any case, I have lots of EMPATHY for people who don't know what they are doing, and by telling them they are literally wasting their time it will benefit them far more than being "sweet".

My style certainly makes me look like an asshole, but I genuinely do like helping people and I confidently believe I can get people better results in 1/5 the time.

**min0 lee** · 08-30-2007, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Here's something you probably didn't know about me:

I used to be insane for volume training. I would work out 8 or 9 days before a break, 2 or 2 and a half hours WHILE working at UPS in the middle of the night.

I did this for two years with little or no break, was so exhausted that I had a nervous breakdown because of my psychological addiction to exercise.

What's even more interesting is I did not do squats or deadlifts that entire time. If someone had smacked me upside the head, I might have saved two years of my life. It took reading a Mentzer book and changing my major to exercise physiology before I understood the cause & effect relationship of exercise.

In any case, I have lots of EMPATHY for people who don't know what they are doing, and by telling them they are literally wasting their time it will benefit them far more than being "sweet".

In any case, my style certainly makes me look like an asshole, but I genuinely do like helping people and I confidently believe I can get people better results in 1/5 the time.

That's burning yourself out!

Well don't stop writing, keep writing. You may not think so but there are some out there who may not reply but they take it in.

**PreMier** · 08-30-2007, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Overall fitness is achieved through balance. Correcting issues with posture, balance, stability. Deadlifts and squats will benefit the entire population, regardless of goals.

And in the original post I very specifically addressed people who were trying to be bodybuilders or achieve maximum hypertrophy.

Oh trust me, I completely agree.. plus I like that your blunt. Im blunt myself, sometimes to the point of being offensive to people haha..

But not everyone is the same.. people need to be approached differently. Im fine with being blunt, and being talked to bluntly, but some people might take offence or like Min0 said you might come off as cocky.

All im getting at is assess the poster, and help them as best you can until you establish rapport with them. Then be blunt. People take offence easily on the internet for some reason.

**danzik17** · 08-30-2007, 08:50 PM

It's always good to post stuff like this, it doesn't matter if it's really that blunt or not, people reading it will still learn something. The only reason I know jack shit about training OR nutrition is from lurking these forums for the past 2-3 years, and I still know that both my training and diet have tons and tons of room for improvement.

On a side note, make me a new routine DD, I'm too lazy to think about it right now

My current 8 week program is up next week I think (might have been last week, lost count actually), but whatever, I want to end on a pull week to keep it even.

**r00kie** · 08-30-2007, 11:20 PM

excellent post! even though i've been on this forum for quite sometime i always need someone to remind me the importance of squats, deadlifts and other compound exercises.

**JonnyStead** · 08-31-2007, 09:01 AM

Bluntness can sometimes work for some people - for others though, encouragement is the way to go and for others still, letting them find their own way - asking questions along the way is their style. Surely the advice you give is sound, but knowledge is only a small part of the 'teacher' role - newbies can get raw knowledge from a book. Connecting with the student and working out which way helps them best is the skill.

Thats my two penneth

**Witchblade** · 08-31-2007, 09:29 AM

I don't mind helping new people. Neither does DD, I'm sure. But people need to be willing to fucking learn something. I've seen people that were referenced to the stickies ten times and they continuously came back and posted another piece of crap workout. The same people never use the search button. 90% of this forum is people asking the same questions over and over again. Now from time to time this is necessary, but not every day. It's these people that just want a quick fix. They don't do any research themselves. They're not willing to put any effort in it themselves. They want quick fixes to quick questions and it just doesn't fucking work that way.
So to make this post meaningful I'll conclude my rant with two tips.

1. Start reading.
2. Use the search button.

**NordicNacho** · 08-31-2007, 10:10 AM

Just compounds in general are great. To many people doing isolation stuff.

Best compounds for me are

lower body= squat

upper body= pull up

**Duncans Donuts** · 08-31-2007, 01:18 PM

If people do or don't take advice is not what I really am concerned about. My approach as being blunt works for me, I think it is effective and if people don't want to listen they are the sufferers. Anyway, I'm not going to change my approach because it is a reflection of my beliefs and philosophy.

**Twigz** · 08-31-2007, 07:00 PM

I think it was fine the way DD layed it out. We have a majority of people on this forum that are nice, encourageing, lead you by the hand, etc. Some poeple learn different ways.

**XFatMan** · 09-01-2007, 11:45 AM

I'm just a dumb newbie, but I have been saying the same stuff, Duncans Donuts. And I'll print that out and hand that over to the [beep], I mean dummies who say, "I'm impressed with what you're trying to do to your spine" when I'm deadlifting, or who say, "When was the last time you went to a chiropracter?" when I'm squatting.

The only time when I got hurt was two weeks ago when I listened to one of those [beep], I mean trainers who wanted me to try out some different back exercise. Now I can't deadlift for some weeks and although deadlifts are taxing like hell, it's my favorite exercise. Second best to me is the squat. But I'm just a beginner anyway, so don't listen to the "crap" I'm talking.

**Witchblade** · 09-01-2007, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by XFatMan

I'm just a dumb newbie, but I have been saying the same stuff, Duncans Donuts. And I'll print that out and hand that over to the [beep], I mean dummies who say, "I'm impressed with what you're trying to do to your spine" when I'm deadlifting, or who say, "When was the last time you went to a chiropracter?" when I'm squatting.

The only time when I got hurt was two weeks ago when I listened to one of those [beep], I mean trainers who wanted me to try out some different back exercise. Now I can't deadlift for some weeks and although deadlifts are taxing like hell, it's my favorite exercise. Second best to me is the squat. But I'm just a beginner anyway, so don't listen to the "crap" I'm talking.

There is an important distinction between the terms 'newb' and 'dumb'.

**Delusional** · 09-01-2007, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by min0 lee

That's burning yourself out!

Well don't stop writing, keep writing. You may not think so but there are some out there who may not reply but they take it in.

very true, i read this and found it nicely detailed and informative. i wasnt going to bother to post saying so tho.. until i read this

**JonnyStead** · 09-02-2007, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

If people do or don't take advice is not what I really am concerned about. My approach as being blunt works for me, I think it is effective and if people don't want to listen they are the sufferers. Anyway, I'm not going to change my approach because it is a reflection of my beliefs and philosophy.

That's fair enough - whatever works for you

Ultimately - unless you're a PT or Fitness/strength coach it really doesnt matter whether you, you know 'reach' people or not with your advice does it?

**shiznit2169** · 09-02-2007, 07:51 AM

You're forgetting the #1 most important thing before setting up their routine right and that is they need to be in a caloric surplus day in and day out if they want to grow.

Even if someone is an advanced lifter and is doing squats/deadlifts as stated in your original post, they won't get anywhere without a proper diet.

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