Bulky Muscle vs. Lean Muscle ?

msoper · 06-20-2002, 09:43 AM

I am not really a body builder but I would like to be. When I was in High school (just 2 years ago) I played football and we worked out. I have a farely large frame and it seemed like any muscle I built just bulked me up and I still had fat over the muscle.

I was wondering what kind of weight traing would be needed to get like, oh lets say....Brad Pitt in Fight Club. Very muscluar but to too bulky. And no fat over the muscle.

I know it has a little to do with genes but I am sure there is a way to be muscular without being too bulky. I have heard that doing less wight with more reps does this and that less reps with heavy weight bulks. Is this true?

(By the way.....im not obese or anything. Im just about 6 feet and 168lbs.)

Thanks!

msoper · 06-20-2002, 09:43 AM

I meant NOT too bulky =)

Scotty the Body · 06-20-2002, 09:49 AM

Your body fat is to high, you need to address your diet and a little cardio might help.

There's no such thing as bulky muscles.

I have heard that doing less wight with more reps does this and that less reps with heavy weight bulks. Is this true?

More weight and lower reps does help for building up muscle but I wouldn't use the light weight high rep scheme.

With your hight and current weight, I'd worry more about putting on some more weight than cutting right now, I guess your going to have to decide what your goals are, get lean ore put on some Lean muscle cause its pretty hard to do both.

msoper · 06-20-2002, 09:59 AM

Well I have alot of friends that wanted to be "Huge" and all they did was just bulk up muslce under fat and the muscles were not cut either. They just looked like huge hulking masses. I don't care about being huge, just defined. But i know you must build muscle to make muslce to define it.

**Mudge** · 06-20-2002, 10:19 AM

If they ate like pigs and ended up just eating carbs and fats, with only modest amounts of protein, then that is why they would be getting 'fat'. If your 168 pounds you sound pretty lean or thin already, I'm 6'2" and 217, and I'm not very large framed or big, my lean body mass is a little over your entire bodyweight.

Good eating, and not eating in 2 large meals, spread it out to 4-6 smaller meals through the day (not 3 hours before bedtime) and it will be easier for your body to make use of the nutrients and NOT have them go to fat. You may also want to add in 3 times a week, 30 minute bike and/or cardio.

Vale Tudo · 06-20-2002, 10:21 AM

Getting cut/defined is all about your body fat. Do as the man says...Watch your diet and hit some cardio

**Mudge** · 06-20-2002, 10:39 AM

Get your bodyfat taken sometime, that way you know exactly where your starting from. You may be supprised.

From what I remember in high school, make sure to decide now, are you powerlifting or bodybuilding?

msoper · 06-20-2002, 10:57 AM

Cant I build my body while I gain power? Or is to two completely differnt ways of training?

**Mudge** · 06-20-2002, 11:03 AM

Yes of course, but 1-3 reps every day, all day, isn't going to make you hard like a rock.

Alot of high schoolers thought they were doing some kind of workout, when in reality they were wasting more time than they were making use of, and yes the two sports are very different. I think the record for someone 168 pounds in the bench is close to 600 pounds, and obviously this person does not look like a bodybuilder. Some of them are skinny, some of them look like jabba the hut, and only rarely do any of them look like an offseason bodybuilder.

Make sure your repetitions are deliberate, its not an ego fest in there. I'm not saying you ARE doing this, but if your workouts are not giving you the results your after, then it could be diet or workout, so I'm just suggesting you double check and make sure your not shortcutting yourself.

Scotty the Body · 06-20-2002, 11:04 AM

The training is the same, it has more to do with your diet and maybe cardio. You shouldn't use lifting to lower body fat (reps sets etc)

**Mudge** · 06-20-2002, 11:09 AM

The training is not the same, similar sure but no its not the same.

Keep your rest periods to 60-90 seconds, dont stay in the gym longer than 45-60 minutes.

If you stick with it and are not cutting yourself short diet/training wise, the gains WILL come, and they will show, this definately takes time and consistency.

Sub-Zero · 06-20-2002, 11:13 AM

I sense that your definition of 'muscular' would mean you could see the muscles very well. This is due to a low BF%.

Most people would lose 10-20lbs to get that cut from their bulking period dependant on how much BF they added and how low they wish to be.

Being cut is more a factor of diet manulpilation as opposed to any real differences in training. Look at it this way -

You lifted heavy to build up those muscles, so why would you change when cutting ?

Power can be achieved whilst cutting, but the gains would come slower due to the fact ur calorie intake probably would be lower.

At your height however, I would concentrate on adding 10lbs muscle and minimal fat and water. This would give a good base to cut on. There's no point cutting if there's nothing TO CUT !!

msoper · 06-20-2002, 11:16 AM

Thanks for the advice guys!!! Helps a great deal.

**Mudge** · 06-20-2002, 11:17 AM

To really show your abs/muscles your probably looking at 8% BF and below, at least from my experience.

Sub-Zero · 06-20-2002, 11:19 AM

Single digits is what you need to aim for. Some people even have abs at 12% + BF (These are the genetically gifted ones wid killer abs)

Scotty the Body · 06-20-2002, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
The training is not the same, similar sure but no its not the same.

What I'm trying to get at is he shouldn't use weight training (reps and number of sets) as a way to drop body fat.

**Mudge** · 06-20-2002, 11:41 AM

Gotcha.

You can keep the heart rate elevated by using very short rest periods (30 seconds or so), but I agree, either cardio or bodybuilding, keep them seperated. Cardio can be done in the morning on an empty stomach (I dont do true cardio, just 65% max heartrate for 30-45 minutes on a stationary bike), and your weights whenever you can fit it into your schedule.

Remember the rest periods though, not this 4 minute stuff (thats for powerlifting), you'd end up in there all day long. Don't forget to have at least 1 rest day in there somewhere, I do the body over 4 days time and have a fifth day off.

epimetheus · 06-22-2002, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
Remember the rest periods though, not this 4 minute stuff (thats for powerlifting

As somebody who primarily powerlifts, I must nitpick here...
I have never rested for 4 mins. My rest period is more like 15-20 seconds, or just long enough for me to add some more weights. I usually deliberately either have very little rest, or do supersets to keep me active the whole 30-45 mins I am in the gym. This elevates my heart rate, and keeps me from having to do Cardio (which effects my strength)

LAM · 06-22-2002, 11:50 AM

being an ex-PL'er myself how can 15-20 secs be enough time inbetween sets when training at 85% of your 1RM ? when bb'ers typical go a minute.

When training heavy I easily go 4-5 minutes inbetween sets. how long have you been PL'ing ?

**Mudge** · 06-22-2002, 12:52 PM

I'm not on LAM's level, but cardio and powerlifting don't mix, and when your murdering yourself doing 1-3 reps, I have been using 4 minute rest periods between as thats what I've seen used for ultra heavy workouts, poundages would drop pretty fast.

epimetheus · 06-22-2002, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LAM
being an ex-PL'er myself how can 15-20 secs be enough time inbetween sets when training at 85% of your 1RM ? when bb'ers typical go a minute.

When training heavy I easily go 4-5 minutes inbetween sets. how long have you been PL'ing ?

I just started Pling solo. I worked briefly (one month) with a group doing Westside methods. There were 4 of us. We rotated doing 3-5 reps, and did them quickly so that rest time was minimal. On our auxillary work we also used 15-20 seconds in between sets. We made PR's every week. I gained 50lbs on my bench and 85lbs on my deadlift and in the time I was there I went from squatting 95lbs to 135lbs. (my squat sucks, had never done it before that time) In ONE month.
I went solo because the drive there was over 40 mins, and my schedule could not handle the time It took. My gym is less than a mile down the road.

They are the ones that trained me so that is why I do it the way I do. It works for me currently so I use it.
I don't know how other powerlifters lift, but in my experience, (who I trained with, the msg boards I have frequented) I don't know anybody that has 4 min rest periods. I guess I am wrong, there are some out there, but I think its the exception not the rule.

epimetheus · 06-22-2002, 01:28 PM

I started lifting in Early March. Have never lifted in my life before then. Was doing BB untill a month and two weeks ago.

**Mudge** · 06-22-2002, 01:31 PM

Almost no matter what you do early on, and you will make pretty impressive gains.

epimetheus · 06-22-2002, 01:52 PM

Aye, but two of the lifters were pretty experienced, and the guy that owned the gym had been lifting for years. His max bench was like 375 when I left, was 350 when I got there. So in the month I was there he gained 25lbs. Not bad at that level. The woman in our group had a max bench of 309 when I left, and was like 250 when I got there. She had been doing WS methods for 10 months. Her weights were amazing for a woman. On top of that she had an old damage rotator cuff from her BB days before she started PL. The other guy was only Pling a couple months before I joined.

Indeed, if you watch the Westide Squat, Bench, or seminar films that Louie Simmons puts out, you will notice that in thier routine (and these are guys that max 600, 800 on bench and squat respectivly) they have 30 seconds max rest time. The time it takes for the guys in front of them (and they seem to train in 3's or 4's) to finish, and they are on top of it. I am not saying it is the only way or the best way, just that if low rest time works for them, as well as for me (a beginner) then it must be good, and not make me weaker or damage me.

**Mudge** · 06-22-2002, 01:57 PM

In 3s or 4s? What do you mean?

Traditional powerlifting has working sets of 1-3 reps, and approximately 4 minute rest periods. What you described is more like bulking, with insufficient rest periods between sets.

From the time you get off the bench, to the time you start working again, that is rest.

epimetheus · 06-22-2002, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
In 3s or 4s? What do you mean?

I mean they work in groups of 3 or 4 people.
Three people rotate the lifts. Person 1 lays down, rips out three quick reps, hops up, Person 2 lays down, rips out three quick reps and hops up, Person 3 lays down, does 3 quick, and Person 1 starts again. Total time, around 30 seconds.
On max effort day, it is the same, but only 1 rep is used on working sets.
I don't know anything about Traditional Powerlifting. For all I know, they could have 10 min rest periods. I don't know any powerlifters that do it that way though, so I thought you were wrong.

I don't understand what you mean about bulking.. Bodybuilders bulk, and they operate under TUT and long rest periods to allow better hypertrophy. I don't see how lifting with short rest periods is the same.

**Mudge** · 06-22-2002, 02:30 PM

If they are training in 3-4 person groups, they are getting alot more than 15-20 seconds between sets.

Bulking, lifting heavy but not powerlifting. Working sets go down to your 1RM, which you apperantly are not doing in your working sets. So, my considering is whoever your training with is not a powerlifter.

If they are adding 25 pounds to thier bench in a month, they should be well out of the 300 and 400 bench mark, unless they are relative newbies like yourself.

Long rest periods are pretty generally not bodybuilder friendly, 60-90 seconds is the norm. This is enough time for me to have 1 training partner, and we switch off almost immediately between our sets.

06-20-2002, 09:43 AM	#1
msoper Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 97	Bulky Muscle vs. Lean Muscle ? I am not really a body builder but I would like to be. When I was in High school (just 2 years ago) I played football and we worked out. I have a farely large frame and it seemed like any muscle I built just bulked me up and I still had fat over the muscle. I was wondering what kind of weight traing would be needed to get like, oh lets say....Brad Pitt in Fight Club. Very muscluar but to too bulky. And no fat over the muscle. I know it has a little to do with genes but I am sure there is a way to be muscular without being too bulky. I have heard that doing less wight with more reps does this and that less reps with heavy weight bulks. Is this true? (By the way.....im not obese or anything. Im just about 6 feet and 168lbs.) Thanks!

06-20-2002, 09:49 AM	#3
Scotty the Body I'm Dead Sexxxxy!! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 4,970	Your body fat is to high, you need to address your diet and a little cardio might help. There's no such thing as bulky muscles. I have heard that doing less wight with more reps does this and that less reps with heavy weight bulks. Is this true? More weight and lower reps does help for building up muscle but I wouldn't use the light weight high rep scheme. With your hight and current weight, I'd worry more about putting on some more weight than cutting right now, I guess your going to have to decide what your goals are, get lean ore put on some Lean muscle cause its pretty hard to do both.
	Cool

06-20-2002, 10:19 AM	#5
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	If they ate like pigs and ended up just eating carbs and fats, with only modest amounts of protein, then that is why they would be getting 'fat'. If your 168 pounds you sound pretty lean or thin already, I'm 6'2" and 217, and I'm not very large framed or big, my lean body mass is a little over your entire bodyweight. Good eating, and not eating in 2 large meals, spread it out to 4-6 smaller meals through the day (not 3 hours before bedtime) and it will be easier for your body to make use of the nutrients and NOT have them go to fat. You may also want to add in 3 times a week, 30 minute bike and/or cardio.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-20-2002, 10:39 AM	#7
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	Get your bodyfat taken sometime, that way you know exactly where your starting from. You may be supprised. From what I remember in high school, make sure to decide now, are you powerlifting or bodybuilding?
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-20-2002, 11:03 AM	#9
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	Yes of course, but 1-3 reps every day, all day, isn't going to make you hard like a rock. Alot of high schoolers thought they were doing some kind of workout, when in reality they were wasting more time than they were making use of, and yes the two sports are very different. I think the record for someone 168 pounds in the bench is close to 600 pounds, and obviously this person does not look like a bodybuilder. Some of them are skinny, some of them look like jabba the hut, and only rarely do any of them look like an offseason bodybuilder. Make sure your repetitions are deliberate, its not an ego fest in there. I'm not saying you ARE doing this, but if your workouts are not giving you the results your after, then it could be diet or workout, so I'm just suggesting you double check and make sure your not shortcutting yourself.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-20-2002, 09:59 AM	#4
msoper Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 97	Well I have alot of friends that wanted to be "Huge" and all they did was just bulk up muslce under fat and the muscles were not cut either. They just looked like huge hulking masses. I don't care about being huge, just defined. But i know you must build muscle to make muslce to define it.

06-20-2002, 10:21 AM	#6
Vale Tudo Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 357	Getting cut/defined is all about your body fat. Do as the man says...Watch your diet and hit some cardio

06-20-2002, 10:57 AM	#8
msoper Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 97	Cant I build my body while I gain power? Or is to two completely differnt ways of training?

06-20-2002, 11:04 AM	#10
Scotty the Body I'm Dead Sexxxxy!! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 4,970	The training is the same, it has more to do with your diet and maybe cardio. You shouldn't use lifting to lower body fat (reps sets etc)
	Cool

06-20-2002, 11:09 AM	#11
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	The training is not the same, similar sure but no its not the same. Keep your rest periods to 60-90 seconds, dont stay in the gym longer than 45-60 minutes. If you stick with it and are not cutting yourself short diet/training wise, the gains WILL come, and they will show, this definately takes time and consistency.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-20-2002, 11:13 AM	#12
Sub-Zero Master of ICE Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Underworld Posts: 181	I sense that your definition of 'muscular' would mean you could see the muscles very well. This is due to a low BF%. Most people would lose 10-20lbs to get that cut from their bulking period dependant on how much BF they added and how low they wish to be. Being cut is more a factor of diet manulpilation as opposed to any real differences in training. Look at it this way - You lifted heavy to build up those muscles, so why would you change when cutting ? Power can be achieved whilst cutting, but the gains would come slower due to the fact ur calorie intake probably would be lower. At your height however, I would concentrate on adding 10lbs muscle and minimal fat and water. This would give a good base to cut on. There's no point cutting if there's nothing TO CUT !!
	Cold as ice !!

06-20-2002, 11:16 AM	#13
msoper Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 97	Thanks for the advice guys!!! Helps a great deal.

06-20-2002, 11:17 AM	#14
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	To really show your abs/muscles your probably looking at 8% BF and below, at least from my experience.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-20-2002, 11:19 AM	#15
Sub-Zero Master of ICE Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Underworld Posts: 181	Single digits is what you need to aim for. Some people even have abs at 12% + BF (These are the genetically gifted ones wid killer abs)
	Cold as ice !!

06-20-2002, 11:41 AM	#17
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	Gotcha. You can keep the heart rate elevated by using very short rest periods (30 seconds or so), but I agree, either cardio or bodybuilding, keep them seperated. Cardio can be done in the morning on an empty stomach (I dont do true cardio, just 65% max heartrate for 30-45 minutes on a stationary bike), and your weights whenever you can fit it into your schedule. Remember the rest periods though, not this 4 minute stuff (thats for powerlifting), you'd end up in there all day long. Don't forget to have at least 1 rest day in there somewhere, I do the body over 4 days time and have a fifth day off.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-22-2002, 11:50 AM	#19
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	being an ex-PL'er myself how can 15-20 secs be enough time inbetween sets when training at 85% of your 1RM ? when bb'ers typical go a minute. When training heavy I easily go 4-5 minutes inbetween sets. how long have you been PL'ing ?
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

06-22-2002, 12:52 PM	#20
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	I'm not on LAM's level, but cardio and powerlifting don't mix, and when your murdering yourself doing 1-3 reps, I have been using 4 minute rest periods between as thats what I've seen used for ultra heavy workouts, poundages would drop pretty fast.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-22-2002, 01:28 PM	#22
epimetheus Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: KCMO Posts: 58	I started lifting in Early March. Have never lifted in my life before then. Was doing BB untill a month and two weeks ago.

06-22-2002, 01:31 PM	#23
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	Almost no matter what you do early on, and you will make pretty impressive gains.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-22-2002, 01:52 PM	#24
epimetheus Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: KCMO Posts: 58	Aye, but two of the lifters were pretty experienced, and the guy that owned the gym had been lifting for years. His max bench was like 375 when I left, was 350 when I got there. So in the month I was there he gained 25lbs. Not bad at that level. The woman in our group had a max bench of 309 when I left, and was like 250 when I got there. She had been doing WS methods for 10 months. Her weights were amazing for a woman. On top of that she had an old damage rotator cuff from her BB days before she started PL. The other guy was only Pling a couple months before I joined. Indeed, if you watch the Westide Squat, Bench, or seminar films that Louie Simmons puts out, you will notice that in thier routine (and these are guys that max 600, 800 on bench and squat respectivly) they have 30 seconds max rest time. The time it takes for the guys in front of them (and they seem to train in 3's or 4's) to finish, and they are on top of it. I am not saying it is the only way or the best way, just that if low rest time works for them, as well as for me (a beginner) then it must be good, and not make me weaker or damage me.

06-22-2002, 01:57 PM	#25
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	In 3s or 4s? What do you mean? Traditional powerlifting has working sets of 1-3 reps, and approximately 4 minute rest periods. What you described is more like bulking, with insufficient rest periods between sets. From the time you get off the bench, to the time you start working again, that is rest.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-22-2002, 02:30 PM	#27
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	If they are training in 3-4 person groups, they are getting alot more than 15-20 seconds between sets. Bulking, lifting heavy but not powerlifting. Working sets go down to your 1RM, which you apperantly are not doing in your working sets. So, my considering is whoever your training with is not a powerlifter. If they are adding 25 pounds to thier bench in a month, they should be well out of the 300 and 400 bench mark, unless they are relative newbies like yourself. Long rest periods are pretty generally not bodybuilder friendly, 60-90 seconds is the norm. This is enough time for me to have 1 training partner, and we switch off almost immediately between our sets.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks