Bench press - but not all the way down. Really!?

Big G · 11-06-2007, 08:13 AM

I'm tall, ectomorphic and thin (used to much thinner - bulking out just fine).

I have long forearms. Therefore, when I'm bench pressing, if I lower the bar all the way down to my chest my elbows are below my back.

Reading "Scrawny to Brawny" last night it says that pressing from this low down places undue stress on my shoulders and can eventually lead to injury.

To avoid going too low it recommended placing a rolled up towel on my chest and only lowering the weight to the point at which my elbows are level with the bench (or my back).

It also recommended keeping my elbows closer to my sides, rather than having them out near 90º as is typically done.

Is everyone in agreement with this?

Just FYI... Scrawny to Brawny is a book especially for ectomorphs (or tall skinny people) and recommends a slightly different form for squats, bench press (and other compound movements) due to the biomechanical (i.e. shape) of the ectomorphic body (long limbs, short muscles, mostly slow-twitch etc).

Witchblade · 11-06-2007, 08:37 AM

A thread on T-Nation called "Why Lurch Can't Grow" talked about this, IIRC.

min0 lee · 11-06-2007, 08:50 AM

OK, but what if you have a huge chest?

Nevermind, I didn't read the scrawny part.

Big G · 11-06-2007, 10:20 AM

Here's the link to that article - save you searching t-nation

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461061&cr=

I'm reading it now.

Thanks!

AKIRA · 11-06-2007, 12:44 PM

Good read. However...

"To do Rebounds, rather than lower the bar in a controlled fashion, or even rather than let it fall quickly to the chest, you literally pull the bar into your chest. When it hits, you reverse direction as rapidly as possible and power the bar up. "

Not so sure about this idea..

JonnyStead · 11-06-2007, 01:17 PM

Broadly my view is its OK - if you have long arms etc then why not. People get very wound up about this one (like ass to grass in squats) ultimately as long as your form is good (not doing anything that will hurt you), your range of motion is consistent as you go up in weight and you're seeing both visible and incremental gains - why the hell not?! good luck!

ALBOB · 11-06-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyStead

Broadly my view is its OK - if you have long arms etc then why not. People get very wound up about this one (like ass to grass in squats) ultimately as long as your form is good (not doing anything that will hurt you), your range of motion is consistent as you go up in weight and you're seeing both visible and incremental gains - why the hell not?! good luck!

This is my feeling as well. I'm of the opinion that the greater your range of motion, the more benefit you get from the exercise. If you use a nice slow tempo up and down, with a slight pause at the bottom, I see no reason you need to worry about a shoulder injury.

Big G · 11-06-2007, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Good read. However...

"To do Rebounds, rather than lower the bar in a controlled fashion, or even rather than let it fall quickly to the chest, you literally pull the bar into your chest. When it hits, you reverse direction as rapidly as possible and power the bar up. "

Not so sure about this idea..

Yeah. I let that one slide too.

Big G · 11-06-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyStead

Broadly my view is its OK - if you have long arms etc then why not. People get very wound up about this one (like ass to grass in squats) ultimately as long as your form is good (not doing anything that will hurt you), your range of motion is consistent as you go up in weight and you're seeing both visible and incremental gains - why the hell not?! good luck!

But if it's not working your pecs at the base of the movement then why bother? If I wanted a shoulder workout I'd be doing military presses.

Witchblade · 11-06-2007, 02:38 PM

It's not as simple as 'pecs do half, triceps do other half'.

Big G · 11-06-2007, 03:09 PM

Scrawny to Brawny says (basically) tall guys with long forearms risk shoulder injuries by going too low. To maximize pec involvment elbows should be at 45º to body (not 90º, like many people do) and bar should be lowered to point where elbows are level with bench.

A personal trainer at the gym today agreed.

Do you disagree?

**Mudge** · 11-06-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big G

But if it's not working your pecs at the base of the movement then why bother? If I wanted a shoulder workout I'd be doing military presses.

Benching is a compound movement, you are going to use your shoulders period. This is why big benchers do not do lots of direct shoulder work, it isn't needed.

**Mudge** · 11-06-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big G

Scrawny to Brawny says (basically) tall guys with long forearms risk shoulder injuries by going too low. To maximize pec involvment elbows should be at 45º to body (not 90º, like many people do) and bar should be lowered to point where elbows are level with bench.

Yes you want your elbows close to your SIDES somewhat. If you flair out the elbows like many bodybuilders do, you risk shoulder injuries.

This has nothing to do with how low the elbow is in relation to your back.

The following link is in my signature:
Lifting Pictures

min0 lee · 11-06-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

She is using her legs to drive her shoulders into the bench even harder

I saw the link and I like her leg placement, too often I see people lift their legs in the air.

**Mudge** · 11-06-2007, 07:48 PM

Watch where this person's elbows are, they are way out in space. This would KILL my shoulders with the weights I use, even with 2 plates I am hurting just thinking about it. This type of form uses the shoulders very heavily.

Now move the elbows down and bring them tighter to the body, touch lower on the chest - and voila, much of the shoulder stress is removed.

Dave Tate on the subject of benching:
How to Increase Bench Press

AKIRA · 11-06-2007, 08:08 PM

I am having a hard time comparing the two forms. If I saw a pic of the same person, of the same angle, I could understand completely. For instance, if the camera was facing the bench (or the spotter) and was elevated, I could see what is being done.

GA_Man_in_Cali · 11-06-2007, 09:16 PM

Don't forget that the way we perform our exercises as bodybuilders will differ drastically from power-lifting form. We're going for maximum muscle stimulation, they are just trying to move as much weight as physically possible. Don't try and compare the two as if one is intrinsically right and one is not. That guy in the pic has great form for a powerlift, but terrible form for achieving a bodybuilder's goals of muscular development.

Witchblade · 11-07-2007, 08:22 AM

Bench pressing powerlifting style is simply not a very good chest exercise. Neck presses are, but they come with a risk for your shoulders.

highpockets · 11-07-2007, 12:26 PM

I'm 6'8" and probably have arms longer than anyone that is 6'2". I've been lifting for years, lowering the bar to my chest (full range) and have NEVER had problems with my shoulders nor suffered any injuries. I believe form is the key. During the lift I imagine that my back is being pressed through the bench, with just a very slight arch (1" maybe) to my lower back. Both feet are firmly pressed into the floor and never come off the floor. I think it's important to have very good control of the bar on the way down. I do not bounce the bar off of my chest like too many wannabees in the local gyms, however as soon as the bar touches my chest I concentrate on exploding the bar upwards.

PR'd last night matter of fact with 320 lbs., not bad for an old man! Had my 18 year old daughter's boyfriend spotting me. You should have seen his face when I was done and gave him that "Don't fuck with my daughter look!" LOL!

juggernaut2005 · 11-07-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highpockets

I'm 6'8" and probably have arms longer than anyone that is 6'2". I've been lifting for years, lowering the bar to my chest (full range) and have NEVER had problems with my shoulders nor suffered any injuries. I believe form is the key. During the lift I imagine that my back is being pressed through the bench, with just a very slight arch (1" maybe) to my lower back. Both feet are firmly pressed into the floor and never come off the floor. I think it's important to have very good control of the bar on the way down. I do not bounce the bar off of my chest like too many wannabees in the local gyms, however as soon as the bar touches my chest I concentrate on exploding the bar upwards.

PR'd last night matter of fact with 320 lbs., not bad for an old man! Had my 18 year old daughter's boyfriend spotting me. You should have seen his face when I was done and gave him that "Fuck with my daughter look!" LOL!

You dirty old man!

min0 lee · 11-07-2007, 03:42 PM

6'8'' wOW!

**Mudge** · 11-07-2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

Bench pressing powerlifting style is simply not a very good chest exercise. Neck presses are, but they come with a risk for your shoulders.

The first thing everyone notices about me seems to be my chest, YMMV.

Big G · 11-07-2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Watch where this person's elbows are, they are way out in space. This would KILL my shoulders with the weights I use, even with 2 plates I am hurting just thinking about it. This type of form uses the shoulders very heavily.

Now move the elbows down and bring them tighter to the body, touch lower on the chest - and voila, much of the shoulder stress is removed.

Right. That's what I've read too. Bar ends up lower on the chest. Greater pec involvement. Less shoulders.

So... all the way down, even for longer forearmed guys like highpockets & me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

The first thing everyone notices about me seems to be my chest, YMMV.

Dangit! I wanna write that.

Shoot.

Uthinkso · 11-08-2007, 06:21 AM

After I hurt my shoulder my buddy thats a BB looked at my form and damn near slapped the taste out of my mouth. I was lowering the weight down over my shoulders, which forced my elbows out at a point. I moved the bar further forward so that it hits my chest in "central nipple" and it took much more stress of my shoulders. Also my arms at at my sides at the bottom of the movement.

With declines, I still focus the weight over my shoulders too much and just hurt my shoulder again.

11-06-2007, 08:13 AM	#1
Big G Gettin' Diesel. Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cols,OH. It sucks. Posts: 1,212 Photos: 1	Bench press - but not all the way down. Really!? I'm tall, ectomorphic and thin (used to much thinner - bulking out just fine). I have long forearms. Therefore, when I'm bench pressing, if I lower the bar all the way down to my chest my elbows are below my back. Reading "Scrawny to Brawny" last night it says that pressing from this low down places undue stress on my shoulders and can eventually lead to injury. To avoid going too low it recommended placing a rolled up towel on my chest and only lowering the weight to the point at which my elbows are level with the bench (or my back). It also recommended keeping my elbows closer to my sides, rather than having them out near 90º as is typically done. Is everyone in agreement with this? Just FYI... Scrawny to Brawny is a book especially for ectomorphs (or tall skinny people) and recommends a slightly different form for squats, bench press (and other compound movements) due to the biomechanical (i.e. shape) of the ectomorphic body (long limbs, short muscles, mostly slow-twitch etc).
	Goal...... DL:500lb, Sqt:400lb, Bnch:300lb Current.. DL:375lb, Sqt:335lb, Bnch:260lb Weight: 185lb (up 25lb), bf=15%ish Age:35 Training since 11/06 journal

11-06-2007, 08:37 AM	#2
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 4,284 Photos: 2	A thread on T-Nation called "Why Lurch Can't Grow" talked about this, IIRC.
	My Linkdump [LSFW] IM Official FAQ [WORK IN PROGRESS]

11-06-2007, 08:50 AM	#3
min0 lee I See© Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The Bronx, NYC Posts: 31,674 Blog Entries: 3 Photos: 542	OK, but what if you have a huge chest? Nevermind, I didn't read the scrawny part. Last edited by min0 lee : 11-06-2007 at 08:51 AM. Reason: Duh.
	How To Do The Perfect Bench Press Rep Bodybuilding and Lifting Weights, the Difference ironmagazine-frapper KEFE '08

11-06-2007, 10:20 AM	#4
Big G Gettin' Diesel. Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cols,OH. It sucks. Posts: 1,212 Photos: 1	Why Lurch Won't grow. Here's the link to that article - save you searching t-nation http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461061&cr= I'm reading it now. Thanks!
	Goal...... DL:500lb, Sqt:400lb, Bnch:300lb Current.. DL:375lb, Sqt:335lb, Bnch:260lb Weight: 185lb (up 25lb), bf=15%ish Age:35 Training since 11/06 journal

11-06-2007, 12:44 PM	#5
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,657 Photos: 3	Good read. However... "To do Rebounds, rather than lower the bar in a controlled fashion, or even rather than let it fall quickly to the chest, you literally pull the bar into your chest. When it hits, you reverse direction as rapidly as possible and power the bar up. " Not so sure about this idea..
	6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 360 (11/29) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

11-06-2007, 01:17 PM	#6
JonnyStead Good old English grit Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: England Posts: 387 Photos: 4	Broadly my view is its OK - if you have long arms etc then why not. People get very wound up about this one (like ass to grass in squats) ultimately as long as your form is good (not doing anything that will hurt you), your range of motion is consistent as you go up in weight and you're seeing both visible and incremental gains - why the hell not?! good luck!
	I'm 34 - when am I officially an old fart?

11-06-2007, 02:38 PM	#10
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 4,284 Photos: 2	It's not as simple as 'pecs do half, triceps do other half'.
	My Linkdump [LSFW] IM Official FAQ [WORK IN PROGRESS]

11-06-2007, 03:09 PM	#11
Big G Gettin' Diesel. Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cols,OH. It sucks. Posts: 1,212 Photos: 1	Scrawny to Brawny says (basically) tall guys with long forearms risk shoulder injuries by going too low. To maximize pec involvment elbows should be at 45º to body (not 90º, like many people do) and bar should be lowered to point where elbows are level with bench. A personal trainer at the gym today agreed. Do you disagree?
	Goal...... DL:500lb, Sqt:400lb, Bnch:300lb Current.. DL:375lb, Sqt:335lb, Bnch:260lb Weight: 185lb (up 25lb), bf=15%ish Age:35 Training since 11/06 journal

11-06-2007, 08:08 PM	#16
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,657 Photos: 3	I am having a hard time comparing the two forms. If I saw a pic of the same person, of the same angle, I could understand completely. For instance, if the camera was facing the bench (or the spotter) and was elevated, I could see what is being done.
	6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 360 (11/29) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

11-06-2007, 09:16 PM	#17
GA_Man_in_Cali Super-Saiyajin Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: California Posts: 7	Don't forget that the way we perform our exercises as bodybuilders will differ drastically from power-lifting form. We're going for maximum muscle stimulation, they are just trying to move as much weight as physically possible. Don't try and compare the two as if one is intrinsically right and one is not. That guy in the pic has great form for a powerlift, but terrible form for achieving a bodybuilder's goals of muscular development.

11-07-2007, 08:22 AM	#18
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 4,284 Photos: 2	Bench pressing powerlifting style is simply not a very good chest exercise. Neck presses are, but they come with a risk for your shoulders.
	My Linkdump [LSFW] IM Official FAQ [WORK IN PROGRESS]

11-07-2007, 12:26 PM	#19
highpockets STILL workin' it! Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 66	I'm 6'8" and probably have arms longer than anyone that is 6'2". I've been lifting for years, lowering the bar to my chest (full range) and have NEVER had problems with my shoulders nor suffered any injuries. I believe form is the key. During the lift I imagine that my back is being pressed through the bench, with just a very slight arch (1" maybe) to my lower back. Both feet are firmly pressed into the floor and never come off the floor. I think it's important to have very good control of the bar on the way down. I do not bounce the bar off of my chest like too many wannabees in the local gyms, however as soon as the bar touches my chest I concentrate on exploding the bar upwards. PR'd last night matter of fact with 320 lbs., not bad for an old man! Had my 18 year old daughter's boyfriend spotting me. You should have seen his face when I was done and gave him that "Don't fuck with my daughter look!" LOL!

11-07-2007, 03:42 PM	#21
min0 lee I See© Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The Bronx, NYC Posts: 31,674 Blog Entries: 3 Photos: 542	6'8'' wOW!
	How To Do The Perfect Bench Press Rep Bodybuilding and Lifting Weights, the Difference ironmagazine-frapper KEFE '08

11-08-2007, 06:21 AM	#24
Uthinkso Go on....DO IT!!! Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 1,298 Photos: 3	After I hurt my shoulder my buddy thats a BB looked at my form and damn near slapped the taste out of my mouth. I was lowering the weight down over my shoulders, which forced my elbows out at a point. I moved the bar further forward so that it hits my chest in "central nipple" and it took much more stress of my shoulders. Also my arms at at my sides at the bottom of the movement. With declines, I still focus the weight over my shoulders too much and just hurt my shoulder again.
	"Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the face".-Mike Tyson http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJ...ner=ndagostino Myspace

11-08-2007, 08:08 AM	#25
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator &n