Can you determine your genetic potential?

Destram · 06-27-2002, 05:45 PM

I've seen people here advising others not to take roids unless they have the genetic potential to be bodybuilders. Now im not looking to use roids or anything like that, id just like to know if there is a way to determine about how big you can get after years of training. I mean, how would people know if they could become professional bodybuilders?

Sub-Zero · 06-27-2002, 06:14 PM

Train hard for a few years, then ask the same question. Is it quite hard to determine ur potential without training for a few years.

mick01 · 06-27-2002, 06:50 PM

At an untrained 22yrs I was a lean 180lbs. I must assume by that age I had grown all I was going to.
After 10yrs of hard training I have achieved a lean 220. Now you must take into account the years with little experience. Over training, thinking my diet was good, the first few years I was still parting pretty hard. So I’m sure the first 5 or so years were not optimal growth years.
40lbs later I still haven’t hit my potential. I’m still growing and getting stronger at 33yrs.
If I knew then what I know now........who knows......but that’s part of the game. Nothing is more valuable than experience and paying your dues.

IMO using AS in large amounts are not worth the risks. The amount of drugs used by today’s professionals are staggering! I'm curious to see how long some of these guys will live and what their quality of life will be after bodybuilding.
What’s sad is the amount of money they are spending on the drugs and the damage they are doing to themselves for the small amount of money a BB might make. What’s the winner of the Olympia get 100K? They probably spend 50K a year in drugs! I guess they make some money off supplement endorsements but to me my liver would be more important.

**Mudge** · 06-27-2002, 07:04 PM

Even rather smallish people can achieve good size, plenty of hard work, and the appropriate diet. I hope you dont think your almost there, dont put yourself in too much of a rush, it comes with time - which is why most people don't get too far, persistence is the key.

Destram · 06-27-2002, 08:11 PM

Well what i mean is, lets say in 2 years i look at myself and say "is this all i could have gotten?". Is there any way of knowing what to expect or if you are actually working up to your potential?

**Prince** · 06-27-2002, 08:46 PM

To make it as a pro bodybuilder these days you have to be a genetic freak. One of those guys you hate that has awesome shape, proportion, symmetry and size without drugs.

You also need the cash to support your drugs, which can cost thousands per year, and lastly the desire to basically ruin your body for the sake of maybe getting your pics in the major mags.

I honestly think the guys that make it in the pro world have a mental disorder. I cannot see any other reason to get that huge, and ruin your health for the sake of "bodybuilding fame". Even if you make it, even the best Weider boys who end up with sweet contracts do not end up millionaires or even rich for that matter. Ther are a few that retire and start a business such as Lee Labrada, and actually become successful, but most do not.

Destram · 06-27-2002, 10:00 PM

Yeah i agree with you. I probably shouldn't have put that in there, thats just why i heard people telling others not to take steroids. I'm not looking to be a pro bodybuilder, i dont have the body or the desire to do that. I was just wondering if there is any way to gauge my progress or see if i am where i should be later on down the road.

**Mudge** · 06-28-2002, 04:50 AM

Arnold said the same thing, to be the best you need to be disturbed - to push yourself to those levels. I have several hobbies, anyone who is super die hard on a single one, not that I put it down, is just something that I could never do myself.

BTW, I'm sure you have more than 2 years to go too

Destram · 06-28-2002, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge

BTW, I'm sure you have more than 2 years to go too

????

Thanks for the replies.

**Prince** · 06-28-2002, 01:41 PM

I do not know if there is any way to determine your genetic potential, why would you really care?

06-28-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
I honestly think the guys that make it in the pro world have a mental disorder.

The mental disorder is called reverse anorexia nervosa
or Bigorexia. Its kind of a body dysmorphic disorder.
http://www.fit-zone.com/library/b/bo..._anorexia.html

Destram · 06-28-2002, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
I do not know if there is any way to determine your genetic potential, why would you really care?

How else would you know that you need to make a change to your training/diet/etc? You wouldn't want to know if you are/were working up to your potential?

**Mudge** · 06-28-2002, 02:08 PM

Destram, you and I have a VERY long way to go before we reach our natural potentials. Look at Gopro, still going, and us rather far behind.

Experience, and persistence will get you moving along, and with that experience you learn to make adjustments when you reach sticking points. You need to find the diet(s) and workout plans that work for you, and at the right times make a switch when something is stagnant.

I am close to 17.5" arms now, and I know that I am not going to be hitting my limits in 2 years. How tall are you, and what are your stats? I saw you list your before/after pix at the 3 month point, but don't recall if you listed stats...

**Mudge** · 06-28-2002, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Destram

How else would you know that you need to make a change to your training/diet/etc? You wouldn't want to know if you are/were working up to your potential?

He is either saying this because,

a) you'll be such a freak you'll scare all the normal people around you,

or

b) because you are years and years away from reaching any kind of "limit", the gains will come slower as time goes on, partially because the mass takes longer to fill out since your covering more "volume" as you go on.

Destram · 06-28-2002, 02:13 PM

I get what you're saying but im just worried that in a year or whatever im gonna find out that because i lacked the experience/knowledge/etc that i could have been a lot farther along than i actually ended up being if you know what i mean. I'd like to get the best results out of the time i spend, want to make the most of it. I got a LONG way to go, i know, and i plan on going till im well into middle age and hopefully continuing lifting even as i get into my 60's and up (if i live that long

). I just want to know if there is any way to establish what a person's foundation is, and how far one SHOULD be able to go in a given amount of time. I'm not asking for a fix-all or asking for somebody to tell me what I'll look like in 10 years, I just wanted to know if there is some way to gauge whatever progress i make.

My stats are
5' 9"
173lbs
13% bf (my readings, hope they are accuate)
15" arms (i would like to take more measurements but i dont know where exactly to measure each thing)

Sub-Zero · 06-28-2002, 02:20 PM

Sorry, but accorind to that back photo in your avatar, you are not 13% BF. Who took the measurements and how many sites were used ?

**Mudge** · 06-28-2002, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Destram I get what you're saying but im just worried that in a year or whatever im gonna find out that because i lacked the experience/knowledge/etc that i could have been a lot farther along than i actually ended up being if you know what i mean.

Yes, I get exactly what you mean. As a 'beginner' you will make great gains for awhile, that slow down as time goes on. Make sure your diet is 'correct', that is one thing I ignored when I started out, especially since my early years of lifting were from age 11-15, somehow I just didn't spend alot of time investigating that end, and I had a hard enough time getting any data, just kind of did whatever.

Anyhow, if you try to follow the 'rules' and ask questions, learn to make adjustments you will continue to progress. What I may add as advice is early on I forced myself (I probably still should technically) to track my measurements once every week, and daily when I worked out I kept a training log, during my rest period between sets I would wright down the weightxreps I used during that set. I also wrote down all my workout before I started, that way all I did was fill in reps, I only put starter weights for my first working sets though, that way I could make adjustments.

You can try to compare these logs every month-3 months or whatever when your starting to slow down, look at what your doing, when I started using this routine my ____ doesn't seem to respond anymore, or my strength is not increasing, whatever you may be watching.

If there is something else I could suggest, while everyones brain is different, try not to freak out about I WANT TO BE HUGE NOW syndrome, alot of people burn out this way. I make sure to keep my workouts to no more than 60 minutes, and more often I'm out of the gym in 40-45, not only for your GH levels but for your brain, keep the workout short, do your stuff and get out. Don't dick off talking between sets, your in there to do a job right? Also I find that your hungry for more later on, you feel good you did your 'job', and you aren't sick of seeing the gym the next day because you weren't in there for 3 hours falling asleep on the bench talking to someone.

How much protein are you intaking daily? I weight 217 and am doing 345g per day now, 1g per pound did not seem to be getting me very far at all.

Hope this jib-jab makes some sense.

Destram · 06-28-2002, 02:26 PM

Yeah makes a lot of sense man. I should track my progress more, i do casually watch my weight/reps, but i dont write it down or monitor it like i should. My workouts usually last about 90-120 minutes. Sometimes ill take longer rests between sets if i have something i have to do inbetween like talk to somebody on the phone or something (i lift at home). Thanks for helping man.

My protein intake is probably between 190-230g per day. I don't have a SUPER strict diet, and things change daily, but i do stick to the same overall basics.

**Mudge** · 06-28-2002, 02:28 PM

See, where you should be making progress that is trackable every week or two weeks, a month or two could EASILY go by where you are not able to see (on paper) "hey, I should be putting on 5/10 more pounds here and I'm not", in other words, it is easy to allow yourself to progress slower than you should be able to.

I wear a stop watch and am using 60 seconds timer right now, so my rest is 70-75 seconds, I dont go more than about 80s on the watch which is 90 second rest period. If you want to go heavy for a week or two (3-8 reps, whatever), then you can use 2min or more if you like.

I dont carry around a huge notepad or anything, just a small notepad that is big enough to write down the workouts on. Since I abreviate most of the excersize names, there is plenty of space.

**Mudge** · 06-28-2002, 02:34 PM

When you do measurements, just make sure your doing it the same way every time, that way you at least know where your going

Use a "cloth"/sewers tape if you don't have one already, you can find them at any sewing supply type place.

Destram · 06-28-2002, 02:58 PM

Yeah thats what i used to measure my arms. I just don't know about like chest, calves, forearms, all those things where exactly to measure at. On my arms i just measure in the middle of the bicep where the peak is the biggest. Do i just go to the biggest spot on my calves and chest and everything?

**Mudge** · 06-28-2002, 03:01 PM

Pretty much the same everywhere else yes, the only factor is how you decide to do the chest, hold air in, how much to hold in, or just relaxed or what. So long as its the same every time you measure.

**gopro** · 06-28-2002, 05:47 PM

You can have a biopsy done of all of your muscles to see your approximate amount of muscle fibers and whether you are blessed with a high amount of Type II fibers...you can check and see if all of your hormone levels are in the proper to high range...you can look at your muscle insertion/attatchments to see if your muscle belly's are nice and long...

...or, you can get in the gym, bust your ass year after year, and reach whatever potential your genetics will allow (oh, and NEVER believe you are at your limit...what your mind believes your body will accept!).

LAM · 06-28-2002, 07:25 PM

90-120 minutes is WAY TO LONG ! you need to either lower the volume of your training or up the intensity. there is no reason why you can not do 1 large and 1 small body part in an hour.

It has been proven that cortisol levels remain high after a high volume of resistance exercise (irrespective of whether a post-exercise carbohydrate-protein supplement is used).

**Mudge** · 06-28-2002, 07:28 PM

Yep, GH levels drop off after 45 minutes approximately, so its rather like your wasting your time after that (minus drugs).

Snake_Eyes · 06-29-2002, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by gopro
You can have a biopsy done of all of your muscles to see your approximate amount of muscle fibers and whether you are blessed with a high amount of Type II fibers...you can check and see if all of your hormone levels are in the proper to high range...you can look at your muscle insertion/attatchments to see if your muscle belly's are nice and long...

Man I hope you're kidding here.

...or, you can get in the gym, bust your ass year after year, and reach whatever potential your genetics will allow (oh, and NEVER believe you are at your limit...what your mind believes your body will accept!).

Good work.........I agree totally.

Now, regarding the hormone factor.. I agree that training for more than 60 minutes or so can be detrimental....however, I do it pretty regularly with little if any drawbacks.

True, the test/cortisol ratio does decline after that period, and if you're into muscle mass, 60 min. should be about the limit.

But do remember that rules are made to be broken...nothing's set in stone. If things like progression in weight are going to be sacrificed because of hormones, then forget the hormones.

06-27-2002, 05:45 PM	#1
Destram Cat Lover Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: .... Posts: 70	Can you determine your genetic potential? I've seen people here advising others not to take roids unless they have the genetic potential to be bodybuilders. Now im not looking to use roids or anything like that, id just like to know if there is a way to determine about how big you can get after years of training. I mean, how would people know if they could become professional bodybuilders?

06-27-2002, 06:14 PM	#2
Sub-Zero Master of ICE Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Underworld Posts: 181	Train hard for a few years, then ask the same question. Is it quite hard to determine ur potential without training for a few years.
	Cold as ice !!

06-27-2002, 06:50 PM	#3
mick01 Phyical Cultural-ist Elite Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: AK (a.k.a middle of no where) Posts: 162	At an untrained 22yrs I was a lean 180lbs. I must assume by that age I had grown all I was going to. After 10yrs of hard training I have achieved a lean 220. Now you must take into account the years with little experience. Over training, thinking my diet was good, the first few years I was still parting pretty hard. So I’m sure the first 5 or so years were not optimal growth years. 40lbs later I still haven’t hit my potential. I’m still growing and getting stronger at 33yrs. If I knew then what I know now........who knows......but that’s part of the game. Nothing is more valuable than experience and paying your dues. IMO using AS in large amounts are not worth the risks. The amount of drugs used by today’s professionals are staggering! I'm curious to see how long some of these guys will live and what their quality of life will be after bodybuilding. What’s sad is the amount of money they are spending on the drugs and the damage they are doing to themselves for the small amount of money a BB might make. What’s the winner of the Olympia get 100K? They probably spend 50K a year in drugs! I guess they make some money off supplement endorsements but to me my liver would be more important.
	To refuse to learn anything that could prove beneficial to yourself is a working definition of stupid! High-intensity training is going all-out, not almost all out. It is taking one set to one's absolute limit, not almost to the limit. It is using whatever equipment’s available. It is not the words of two or three men, but a commitment to work as hard as possible while in the gym without socializing, resting excessively between sets, or falling prey to the 'this isn't going to work so I'll copy the star' attitude"

06-27-2002, 07:04 PM	#4
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,027 Photos: 1	Even rather smallish people can achieve good size, plenty of hard work, and the appropriate diet. I hope you dont think your almost there, dont put yourself in too much of a rush, it comes with time - which is why most people don't get too far, persistence is the key.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-27-2002, 08:46 PM	#6
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,721 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	To make it as a pro bodybuilder these days you have to be a genetic freak. One of those guys you hate that has awesome shape, proportion, symmetry and size without drugs. You also need the cash to support your drugs, which can cost thousands per year, and lastly the desire to basically ruin your body for the sake of maybe getting your pics in the major mags. I honestly think the guys that make it in the pro world have a mental disorder. I cannot see any other reason to get that huge, and ruin your health for the sake of "bodybuilding fame". Even if you make it, even the best Weider boys who end up with sweet contracts do not end up millionaires or even rich for that matter. Ther are a few that retire and start a business such as Lee Labrada, and actually become successful, but most do not.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

06-27-2002, 08:11 PM	#5
Destram Cat Lover Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: .... Posts: 70	Well what i mean is, lets say in 2 years i look at myself and say "is this all i could have gotten?". Is there any way of knowing what to expect or if you are actually working up to your potential?

06-27-2002, 10:00 PM	#7
Destram Cat Lover Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: .... Posts: 70	Yeah i agree with you. I probably shouldn't have put that in there, thats just why i heard people telling others not to take steroids. I'm not looking to be a pro bodybuilder, i dont have the body or the desire to do that. I was just wondering if there is any way to gauge my progress or see if i am where i should be later on down the road.

06-28-2002, 04:50 AM	#8
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,027 Photos: 1	Arnold said the same thing, to be the best you need to be disturbed - to push yourself to those levels. I have several hobbies, anyone who is super die hard on a single one, not that I put it down, is just something that I could never do myself. BTW, I'm sure you have more than 2 years to go too

06-28-2002, 01:41 PM	#10
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,721 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	I do not know if there is any way to determine your genetic potential, why would you really care?
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

06-28-2002, 02:08 PM	#13
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,027 Photos: 1	Destram, you and I have a VERY long way to go before we reach our natural potentials. Look at Gopro, still going, and us rather far behind. Experience, and persistence will get you moving along, and with that experience you learn to make adjustments when you reach sticking points. You need to find the diet(s) and workout plans that work for you, and at the right times make a switch when something is stagnant. I am close to 17.5" arms now, and I know that I am not going to be hitting my limits in 2 years. How tall are you, and what are your stats? I saw you list your before/after pix at the 3 month point, but don't recall if you listed stats...
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-28-2002, 02:13 PM	#15
Destram Cat Lover Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: .... Posts: 70	I get what you're saying but im just worried that in a year or whatever im gonna find out that because i lacked the experience/knowledge/etc that i could have been a lot farther along than i actually ended up being if you know what i mean. I'd like to get the best results out of the time i spend, want to make the most of it. I got a LONG way to go, i know, and i plan on going till im well into middle age and hopefully continuing lifting even as i get into my 60's and up (if i live that long ). I just want to know if there is any way to establish what a person's foundation is, and how far one SHOULD be able to go in a given amount of time. I'm not asking for a fix-all or asking for somebody to tell me what I'll look like in 10 years, I just wanted to know if there is some way to gauge whatever progress i make. My stats are 5' 9" 173lbs 13% bf (my readings, hope they are accuate) 15" arms (i would like to take more measurements but i dont know where exactly to measure each thing)

06-28-2002, 02:20 PM	#16
Sub-Zero Master of ICE Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Underworld Posts: 181	Sorry, but accorind to that back photo in your avatar, you are not 13% BF. Who took the measurements and how many sites were used ?
	Cold as ice !!

06-28-2002, 02:26 PM	#18
Destram Cat Lover Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: .... Posts: 70	Yeah makes a lot of sense man. I should track my progress more, i do casually watch my weight/reps, but i dont write it down or monitor it like i should. My workouts usually last about 90-120 minutes. Sometimes ill take longer rests between sets if i have something i have to do inbetween like talk to somebody on the phone or something (i lift at home). Thanks for helping man. My protein intake is probably between 190-230g per day. I don't have a SUPER strict diet, and things change daily, but i do stick to the same overall basics.

06-28-2002, 02:28 PM	#19
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,027 Photos: 1	See, where you should be making progress that is trackable every week or two weeks, a month or two could EASILY go by where you are not able to see (on paper) "hey, I should be putting on 5/10 more pounds here and I'm not", in other words, it is easy to allow yourself to progress slower than you should be able to. I wear a stop watch and am using 60 seconds timer right now, so my rest is 70-75 seconds, I dont go more than about 80s on the watch which is 90 second rest period. If you want to go heavy for a week or two (3-8 reps, whatever), then you can use 2min or more if you like. I dont carry around a huge notepad or anything, just a small notepad that is big enough to write down the workouts on. Since I abreviate most of the excersize names, there is plenty of space.

06-28-2002, 02:34 PM	#20
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,027 Photos: 1	When you do measurements, just make sure your doing it the same way every time, that way you at least know where your going Use a "cloth"/sewers tape if you don't have one already, you can find them at any sewing supply type place.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-28-2002, 02:58 PM	#21
Destram Cat Lover Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: .... Posts: 70	Yeah thats what i used to measure my arms. I just don't know about like chest, calves, forearms, all those things where exactly to measure at. On my arms i just measure in the middle of the bicep where the peak is the biggest. Do i just go to the biggest spot on my calves and chest and everything?

06-28-2002, 03:01 PM	#22
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,027 Photos: 1	Pretty much the same everywhere else yes, the only factor is how you decide to do the chest, hold air in, how much to hold in, or just relaxed or what. So long as its the same every time you measure.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-28-2002, 05:47 PM	#23
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Florida Posts: 10,504	You can have a biopsy done of all of your muscles to see your approximate amount of muscle fibers and whether you are blessed with a high amount of Type II fibers...you can check and see if all of your hormone levels are in the proper to high range...you can look at your muscle insertion/attatchments to see if your muscle belly's are nice and long... ...or, you can get in the gym, bust your ass year after year, and reach whatever potential your genetics will allow (oh, and NEVER believe you are at your limit...what your mind believes your body will accept!).
	Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. VPX Sponsored Athlete/Board Rep www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

06-28-2002, 07:25 PM	#24
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	90-120 minutes is WAY TO LONG ! you need to either lower the volume of your training or up the intensity. there is no reason why you can not do 1 large and 1 small body part in an hour. It has been proven that cortisol levels remain high after a high volume of resistance exercise (irrespective of whether a post-exercise carbohydrate-protein supplement is used).
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

06-28-2002, 07:28 PM	#25
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,027 Photos: 1	Yep, GH levels drop off after 45 minutes approximately, so its rather like your wasting your time after that (minus drugs).
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

06-29-2002, 03:24 AM	#26
Snake_Eyes Real American Hero Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 221	Originally posted by gopro You can have a biopsy done of all of your muscles to see your approximate amount of muscle fibers and whether you are blessed with a high amount of Type II fibers...you can check and see if all of your hormone levels are in the proper to high range...you can look at your muscle insertion/attatchments to see if your muscle belly's are nice and long... Man I hope you're kidding here. ...or, you can get in the gym, bust your ass year after year, and reach whatever potential your genetics will allow (oh, and NEVER believe you are at your limit...what your mind believes your body will accept!). Good work.........I agree totally. Now, regarding the hormone factor.. I agree that training for more than 60 minutes or so can be detrimental....however, I do it pretty regularly with little if any drawbacks. True, the test/cortisol ratio does decline after that period, and if you're into muscle mass, 60 min. should be about the limit. But do remember that rules are made to be broken...nothing's set in stone. If things like progression in weight are going to be sacrificed because of hormones, then forget the hormones.