a few training questions

UFC rocks · 01-16-2008, 10:28 AM

hi guys i have a few questions about training which i would really appreciate if any one could answer.

1 - i dont train traps directly, but i think i am still over training them. i really feel them getting worked with deadlifts on my back days, but i also feel them getting worked quiet alot when doing barbell behind the neck shoulder press and laterial raises. am i over training them.

2 - As you can see in question 1 i do laterial raises, which is a isolation exercise. i am trying to keep isolation exercises to a minimum and just stick with the compounds. so my question is how much do the side delts get worked in barbell behind the neck shoulder press and bench press. do they get worked enough for you to get nice rounded, broad shoulders. if it is then i will stop doing the laterial raises and just stick with the compounds.

3 - most people train abs more regularly than other muscle groups, for example ever other day, most people also do higher reps for abs. my question is aren't abs just like any other muscle and shouldn't you train them like other muscle, shouldn't you train them hard with lower reps and more days rest.

Thanks in advance for any replys.

ReproMan · 01-16-2008, 10:33 AM

1. You're not overtraining your traps.
2. Stop doing behind the neck presses. I happen to like lateral raises, but they aren't needed.
3. I don't see the harm in training abs a few times a week. I put them at the end of both of my upper body days.

UFC rocks · 01-16-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReproMan

I don't see the harm in training abs a few times a week. I put them at the end of both of my upper body days.

yeh but aren't they just like any other muscle and so shouldn't they be trained the same as other muscles.

ReproMan · 01-16-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

yeh but aren't they just like any other muscle and so shouldn't they be trained the same as other muscles.

All muscles aren't made the same. I don't really know the science behind it, but muscles are made up of different fibers I believe and they all respond to different stimuli.

KelJu · 01-16-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

yeh but aren't they just like any other muscle and so shouldn't they be trained the same as other muscles.

My traps can take a fuck load of abuse, smile, and ask for more. I saw massive growth from my traps when I started doing barball shrugs.

I can only speak for myself, because I have never read any data backing up my claim.

fUnc17 · 01-16-2008, 04:05 PM

Post the rest of your program so we can see whats going on

Metallibanger · 01-16-2008, 06:23 PM

Who the fuck tells you all that you have to avoid isolation exercises? Why that fear? And if you want to know if an exercise is necessary or not, just try and judge for yourself...

fUnc17 · 01-16-2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metallibanger

Who the fuck tells you all that you have to avoid isolation exercises? Why that fear? And if you want to know if an exercise is necessary or not, just try and judge for yourself...

It is not a question of fear, it is a question of goals.

Metallibanger · 01-16-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

It is not a question of fear, it is a question of goals.

The guy wants "to get nice rounded, broad shoulders" while keeping isolation exercises to a minimum. Well, compounds (presses) will pack on mass, but you can't expect perfectly balanced delts without isolation exercises

fUnc17 · 01-16-2008, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metallibanger

The guy wants "to get nice rounded, broad shoulders" while keeping isolation exercises to a minimum. Well, compounds (presses) will pack on mass, but you can't expect perfectly balanced delts without isolation exercises

"nice rounded, broad shoulders" is not "perfectly well balanced delts"

XFatMan · 01-17-2008, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

1 - i dont train traps directly, but i think i am still over training them. i really feel them getting worked with deadlifts on my back days, but i also feel them getting worked quiet alot when doing barbell behind the neck shoulder press and laterial raises. am i over training them.

How do you know you are overtraining them? Personally, I find that difficult to believe. Stop doing those ridiculous behind the neck presses unless you want to see a chiropractor once you lift serious weights with this unnatural movement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

2 - As you can see in question 1 i do laterial raises, which is a isolation exercise. i am trying to keep isolation exercises to a minimum and just stick with the compounds. so my question is how much do the side delts get worked in barbell behind the neck shoulder press and bench press. do they get worked enough for you to get nice rounded, broad shoulders. if it is then i will stop doing the laterial raises and just stick with the compounds.

You're absolutely right in keeping isolation exercises to a minimum. I already gave my opinion on the barbell behind the neck presses. The bench press works the front delts more. For the shoulders, first choice should be a compound lift as well, like barbell / dumbbell overhead presses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

3 - most people train abs more regularly than other muscle groups, for example ever other day, most people also do higher reps for abs. my question is aren't abs just like any other muscle and shouldn't you train them like other muscle, shouldn't you train them hard with lower reps and more days rest.

I deal with abs as I would deal with any other muscle group. I make no difference in number of reps or sets. Then again, I'm a strong believer of the HST principle, which is backed up by sound science, so I prefer to train each muscle group three times a week.

UFC rocks · 01-17-2008, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XFatMan

Stop doing those ridiculous behind the neck presses unless you want to see a chiropractor once you lift serious weights with this unnatural movement.

the reason i do them behind the neck is because i dont have a 90 degree angle bench so i cant do them to the front seated and if i do them to the front standing i find i start to arch my back when pushing the weight up and i start to feel a pain in my lower back. but when i do them behind the neck it helps me stand upright and i have know pain in my lower back. people have told me that doing it to the front or back is only a difference of a few inches so it doesn't matter too much, there is just a bit more chance of you hurting the shoulders if done to the back of the neck. this is why if they ever start to hurt my shoulders i will stop doing them, but for now they are fine for me. i surpose i coulder do them standing with dumbbells but i can lift more weight with the barbell,i guess thats something i will have to think about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XFatMan

You're absolutely right in keeping isolation exercises to a minimum. I already gave my opinion on the barbell behind the neck presses. The bench press works the front delts more. For the shoulders, first choice should be a compound lift as well, like barbell / dumbbell overhead presses.

i do what to keep isolation exercises to a minimum. front delts get worked in pushing exercises and rear delts get worked in pulling exercises, but do the side delts get worked in any exercises or do i need to isolate them. when ever people have a only compound exerciese routine it always imvoles shoulder press, but then arnt the front delts getting work much more than any of the other delts becasue get worked in pushind exercises such as bench press and you are also doing shoulder press for them.

thanks for all the replys.

XFatMan · 01-17-2008, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

the reason i do them behind the neck is because i dont have a 90 degree angle bench so i cant do them to the front seated and if i do them to the front standing i find i start to arch my back when pushing the weight up and i start to feel a pain in my lower back. but when i do them behind the neck it helps me stand upright and i have know pain in my lower back. people have told me that doing it to the front or back is only a difference of a few inches so it doesn't matter too much, there is just a bit more chance of you hurting the shoulders if done to the back of the neck. this is why if they ever start to hurt my shoulders i will stop doing them, but for now they are fine for me. i surpose i coulder do them standing with dumbbells but i can lift more weight with the barbell,i guess thats something i will have to think about.

The secret is proper form. Work on form first, weight should be secondary now. Those few inches do make a difference. Once you get to serious weights, you'll know what I mean.
And yes, you cannot lift the same weights with dumbbells as you can with barbells. This is because dumbbell movements usually give you a greater range of motion, which makes it more difficult but also more effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

i do what to keep isolation exercises to a minimum. front delts get worked in pushing exercises and rear delts get worked in pulling exercises, but do the side delts get worked in any exercises or do i need to isolate them. when ever people have a only compound exerciese routine it always imvoles shoulder press, but then arnt the front delts getting work much more than any of the other delts becasue get worked in pushind exercises such as bench press and you are also doing shoulder press for them.

You don't need to isolate them. Overhead presses and similar compound lifts will work them very well.

By the way, it might be just me because I'm an English teacher and I really don't want to pick on you. But did you know that some punctuation every now and then at the right places can make your sentences more readable?

**Gazhole** · 01-17-2008, 07:07 AM

If you get a balance of horizontal and vertical pushing and pulling movements, there is no need to isolate anything past personal preference or variation.

I throw in a few isolation sets every program or so - just for that extra change. Its as much for variation of stimulus as it is for keeping it fresh in my mind, probably moreso to keep me interested if im honest.

Compound movements are superior. You can lift more weight and stimulate larger amounts of muscle, the benefits of which should be obvious. They are also more difficult to perform from a neural perspective and a psychological perspective sometimes.

All of this ends up in you being potentially stronger, bigger, and more efficient at lifting than if you used an isolation movement instead. Doing too many isolation movements is a waste of time, energy, and equipment, and is one of the reasons most people's gains are held back.

Sorry. Im on a rant. The last time i went to the gym there was a guy there, and i counted no less than 30 sets of curl variations from him, and he was using the dumbells i wanted to use for my rowing. I hate that.

UFC rocks · 01-17-2008, 08:19 AM

thanks for all the replys you guys, i will take everthing i am told on board, thanks for all the advice. XFatMan you are right about the punctuation, i only just got a C in my GCSE, i will try better in my next post.

XFatMan · 01-17-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Sorry. Im on a rant. The last time i went to the gym there was a guy there, and i counted no less than 30 sets of curl variations from him, and he was using the dumbells i wanted to use for my rowing. I hate that.

You forgot to mention those guys who get into the gym, do 7 - 10 exercises, 3 sets each and are finished in 90 minutes if they're quick. They could have gotten the same muscle overload and stimuli with 3 sets of squats or deadlifts. In and out in under 20 minutes with the same result or better. But this is real life ...

XFatMan · 01-17-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

thanks for all the replys you guys, i will take everthing i am told on board, thanks for all the advice. XFatMan you are right about the punctuation, i only just got a C in my GCSE, i will try better in my next post.

You'd better not take me too serious on that one.

**Gazhole** · 01-17-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XFatMan

You forgot to mention those guys who get into the gym, do 7 - 10 exercises, 3 sets each and are finished in 90 minutes if they're quick. They could have gotten the same muscle overload and stimuli with 3 sets of squats or deadlifts. In and out in under 20 minutes with the same result or better. But this is real life ...

That much work is a little excessive. The thing is, half the time the reason they NEED to do ten exercises is because theyre isolation and thus arent particularly taxing.

The only way you can really feel like youve "hit" the muscles with those movements is to get a "burn", and the way to do that is high reps. Hence why every newb goes down the excessive volume and frequency route.

Like you say, a few big compound movements will do more for you. The key word is efficiency. Why do 4 isolation movements (hams, calves, back, traps) when you can do deadlifts and get out of the gym earlier?

Obviously these are just examples , im not saying your entire pull training should be deads, but theyre better than fucking ham curls is what im saying.

UFC rocks · 01-17-2008, 09:28 AM

there is one more question i have now that i think about it. its about soreness.

1- if you dont feel sore the next day does that mean you have not worked hard enought.
2 - if you do feel really sore the next day, does that mean you have had a really good workout.
3 - can someone give me a brief on the sceince behind soreness, what is actually happening to your body to make you sore.
4 - if you never feel sore can you still make gains.

so basically how important is it to feel sore. because some days after a workout day i feel really sore, some days i feel a little sore and some days i dont feel any thing the next day.

**Gazhole** · 01-17-2008, 09:36 AM

Soreness doesnt mean your workout was good or bad. Soreness can come from doing a new exercise, higher volume or intensity than what you are used to, you can get sore when you come back to lifting after a layoff aswell.

Some kinds of training like post/pre exhaust supersets, drop sets, extended negatives etc produce soreness through microtrauma of your muscles, because they are quite intense and difficult protocols.

Nobody really knows for sure what causes it though, there are theories but im pretty sure its somewhat a mystery as to the actual biology behind it.

I hardly ever get sore, yet ive been making gains consistently for a few years. It really doesnt mean anything.

The best tip i can give you, is that if you think you're too sore to keep good form then dont train. Put it off another day. If you can train through it, it wont do any harm. Only you know your limits, and if you think you're likely to fuck up because youre distracted by the pain, then theres no harm in leaving it.

After a while, once you get somewhat used to your current training plan, you wont get as sore, if at all. The same goes for the more experience you have with training. Your body gets used to exercise, and you wont hurt as much.

I kinda like it, because at least i know ive done something, buts thats just a mental thing. In reality, its not an indicator either way - perhaps just a comfort.

**Biggly** · 01-17-2008, 10:12 AM

The soreness is a build-up of lactic acid and/or micro-tears. Negative lowering reps will tend to increase the tearing (as the weight is pulling in a straight line, whereas when you're lifting the whole muscle is bunching and spreading the load). The micro-tears are the main cause of next-day soreness, whereas the "burn" at the time is primarily lactic acid, which is a side product of energy burning basically. They both feel pretty much the same as it's the same basic nerve endings.

You do not need the burn to grow, though the micro-tearing will stimulate growth if everything else is in order, ie diet, rest etc.

If your back hurts doing overheads then this tells you something - you have a weak back. Fix that before worrying about your shoulders!

Regarding the idea that your shoulders are OK with behind the neck stuff and you'll quit if they hurt, understand this point: when they hurt it is because they are damaged, ie injured, ie no training for weeks, maybe severe pain and long-term serious damage. They'll be fine, right up until the moment something snaps pops and crackles.

No offence but it sounds to me like you're leaping straight into advance stuff without building a solid core first. Stick with the compounds, go light, perfect your technique and steadily build the weight up. Develop a great physique and THEN worry about sculpting specific areas.

B.

XFatMan · 01-17-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

1- if you dont feel sore the next day does that mean you have not worked hard enought.

By far not. I used to get terribly sore with workout programs that work one muscle group per week. With three full-body workouts per week, which is what I've been doing for about 6 months, I hardly ever get sore. If I do get sore, it's only during the first week after having been off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

2 - if you do feel really sore the next day, does that mean you have had a really good workout.

No. Perhaps it can mean that you've overdone it a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

3 - can someone give me a brief on the sceince behind soreness, what is actually happening to your body to make you sore.

Biggly was right on the money with his explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

4 - if you never feel sore can you still make gains.

You bet. Muscle adapts to overload. Give muscle a reason to grow, and it will do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFC rocks

so basically how important is it to feel sore. because some days after a workout day i feel really sore, some days i feel a little sore and some days i dont feel any thing the next day.

If soreness doesn't limit your overall well-being, ignore it. If you can't move properly or can't move at all, perhaps you're doing to much.

01-16-2008, 10:28 AM	#1
UFC rocks Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: England Posts: 220	a few training questions hi guys i have a few questions about training which i would really appreciate if any one could answer. 1 - i dont train traps directly, but i think i am still over training them. i really feel them getting worked with deadlifts on my back days, but i also feel them getting worked quiet alot when doing barbell behind the neck shoulder press and laterial raises. am i over training them. 2 - As you can see in question 1 i do laterial raises, which is a isolation exercise. i am trying to keep isolation exercises to a minimum and just stick with the compounds. so my question is how much do the side delts get worked in barbell behind the neck shoulder press and bench press. do they get worked enough for you to get nice rounded, broad shoulders. if it is then i will stop doing the laterial raises and just stick with the compounds. 3 - most people train abs more regularly than other muscle groups, for example ever other day, most people also do higher reps for abs. my question is aren't abs just like any other muscle and shouldn't you train them like other muscle, shouldn't you train them hard with lower reps and more days rest. Thanks in advance for any replys.

01-16-2008, 04:05 PM	#6
fUnc17 Drop and give me 100 Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Jersey Shore BJJ Posts: 1,869 Photos: 12	Post the rest of your program so we can see whats going on
	Athletic Strength & Movement blog Strength Edge

01-17-2008, 10:12 AM	#21
Biggly Nerd Moderator Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Borneo Posts: 487 Blog Entries: 1	The soreness is a build-up of lactic acid and/or micro-tears. Negative lowering reps will tend to increase the tearing (as the weight is pulling in a straight line, whereas when you're lifting the whole muscle is bunching and spreading the load). The micro-tears are the main cause of next-day soreness, whereas the "burn" at the time is primarily lactic acid, which is a side product of energy burning basically. They both feel pretty much the same as it's the same basic nerve endings. You do not need the burn to grow, though the micro-tearing will stimulate growth if everything else is in order, ie diet, rest etc. If your back hurts doing overheads then this tells you something - you have a weak back. Fix that before worrying about your shoulders! Regarding the idea that your shoulders are OK with behind the neck stuff and you'll quit if they hurt, understand this point: when they hurt it is because they are damaged, ie injured, ie no training for weeks, maybe severe pain and long-term serious damage. They'll be fine, right up until the moment something snaps pops and crackles. No offence but it sounds to me like you're leaping straight into advance stuff without building a solid core first. Stick with the compounds, go light, perfect your technique and steadily build the weight up. Develop a great physique and THEN worry about sculpting specific areas. B.
	Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

01-16-2008, 10:33 AM	#2
ReproMan Señor Member Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stuart, FL Posts: 6,975	1. You're not overtraining your traps. 2. Stop doing behind the neck presses. I happen to like lateral raises, but they aren't needed. 3. I don't see the harm in training abs a few times a week. I put them at the end of both of my upper body days.

01-16-2008, 06:23 PM	#7
Metallibanger Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: - Posts: 287 Photos: 13	Who the fuck tells you all that you have to avoid isolation exercises? Why that fear? And if you want to know if an exercise is necessary or not, just try and judge for yourself...

01-17-2008, 08:19 AM	#15
UFC rocks Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: England Posts: 220	thanks for all the replys you guys, i will take everthing i am told on board, thanks for all the advice. XFatMan you are right about the punctuation, i only just got a C in my GCSE, i will try better in my next post.

01-17-2008, 09:28 AM	#19
UFC rocks Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: England Posts: 220	there is one more question i have now that i think about it. its about soreness. 1- if you dont feel sore the next day does that mean you have not worked hard enought. 2 - if you do feel really sore the next day, does that mean you have had a really good workout. 3 - can someone give me a brief on the sceince behind soreness, what is actually happening to your body to make you sore. 4 - if you never feel sore can you still make gains. so basically how important is it to feel sore. because some days after a workout day i feel really sore, some days i feel a little sore and some days i dont feel any thing the next day.