bk240

Hi,

I am doing Waterbury's TBT training which involves 4 compound and 2 isolation exercises each session. I have 2 questions.

1) Is the chest fly iso or compound as i get mixed opinion on bodybuilding.com exercise database to other sites. As I hit the chest on each of the sessions it tends to be on the compound exercise and wondered if i selected the fly (DB or machine) then does it replace the compound

2) I am measuring progress or at least logging the weights down and I have been doing the same exercise for 2 weeks before changing as per Waterbury's TBT. I have been changing grip on the 2nd time to change it up slightly and noticed that on the V-Bar pull down (back) that i could lift more using supinated narrow grip than i did week before using wide grip.
Should I be separting these exercises out totally even though i just changed the grip? ie. wide vs narrow soupinated , as i dont think i can compare if im lifting progressively If i change grip ?

Many thanks in advance.

Binny

Gazhole

1 - Isolation.

2 - If the movements seem different enough because of the grip change to be different movements, then yeah, sure. You may aswell just change to a different movement if thats the case though. I honestly dont know that program you're talking about in detail.

http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 25/04/08

DOMS

Don't think about it as isolation or compound. Think of it as single or multi joint.

How many joints are you using when you do flys (keep in mind that your elbows aren't supposed to move)?

I'm not certain what your second question was, but I'll give it a shot.

If you're doing a specific routine, use the hand placement specified or your usual grip. I just finished my stint of Chad's Total Strength Program for benching. This routine insisted that I use my weakest grip (narrow).

Depending on the exercise, changing your hand grip can result in using some different muscles, but the general recruitment is usually similar. At your level of development, I wouldn't worry about it. Later on though, you're going to want to find your weakest hand placement and work it.

I hope this helps.

bk240

Thnx for the replies guys. I will keep flys in the single joint category for the time being. If I replace one Chest compound with another muscle group, i think I can then do the fly as one of the single joint exercises.

As for the Back pulldown. I was just very suprised that I could lift a couple of plates more when I changed the grip. As I measure the progress it threw me off a bit so wondered if I should do the exercise as Wide Grip and compare to a subsequent Wide Grip workout. eg. maybe I shouldnt comare say 50kg on wide vs 60kg on narrow and say that ive improved by 10kg..

Its just that other exercises the grips does not make too much of a difference.

DOMS

That's perfectly normal.

You want to have some fun with changing grips? Try changing the width on your grip when benching.

clayu86

it is isolation, because you are hitting and targeting the inner chest with that workout...thus you are isolating them...will you workout other bodyparts in the process yes...but your isolation is targeting the inner chest

clayu86

when you do the chest fly focus like this...imagine you are hugging a tree trunk...when you are coming up say to yourself...squeeze the tree trunk...and keep the focus where it should be as this will make the isolation even better on your innerchest.

clayu86

on back workouts usually the change of grip will be the deciding factor on how wide, thick, and strong your back gets...it all depends on what you want to do...so it would probably be best to be more specific in your goals for your workouts to get a better more defined answer.

eddieod

clayu the db fly targets the outer pecs it only brings the inner pec into play when you come all the way up and touch the weights together which youre not supposed to do it is the complete opposite to the pec dec fly which targets only the inner pec and is indeed an isolation movement. i know many huge men with barrel shaped chests that swear by using the db fly done properly as very much a compound movement and at least once a month start their chest workout with these and for this reason can use enormous weight. i have done this myself with there advice and reaped the rewards and continue to do so.if you leave this movement till the end of your workout you can not use the kind of weight to make it pay,as long as you thoroughly warm up the muscle first you get the most amazing pump in your pecs and amazing results.

DOMS

Flys neither target the "inner" or "outer" portion of the chest. Is works all of the pecs.

You need to disabuse yourself of that sort of thinking.

eddieod

i totally agree with that doms do four sets of heavy flys and the whole pec region will know about it the next day. but a deep stretch at the bottom of the movment does use the outer region like no other exercise. i do not as a rule separate different heads of a muscle but use the entire area to shift the weight but as it was mentioned that the fly targets the inner pec when it is probably the area least used in the exercise ( if done properly) i thought id just mention it.not to mention it can be done inc/ flat or decline

clayu86

that is incorrect my friend the main focus when you do dumbell fly is innerchest....you are squeezing the chest together. Yes it does work the whole chest but the workout was meant to come up all the way. Alot of guys turn it into an outer chest workout but that is because they are using incorrect form...in my 12 years of lifting this is the way it has always been classified...thats the reason why they say squeeze the tree trunk....your focus is inner. Focus=isolation...hence thats the main area you are working. If it is working more of your outter chest you are going down to far in your shoulder are. Arms should be slightly bent at the elbows and you should come down until the upper arms are barely below parallel with the ground and then squeeze at the top. DOMS is correct in what he says but the main part of your chest being worked is inner.

Biggly

Inner? Outer?

Hitting from different angles I can understand but inner and outer?

You have the minor pec ("pectoralis minor") below (underneath) the main pec but essentially it's just one, albeit fan-shaped, muscle. How does one work one end of a muscle without the other?


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

eddieod

you cant biggly ,if all you done for ten years was the db fly (inc/flat) you would have great overall chest development as i know one individual who has done exactly that. so im not saying it doesnt work the overall area the original question was is it an iso or compound movement and my point was i think as you are only really using the pecs its iso but if you start your workout with it and really load on the weight it feels and has the effect of a compound movement. clayu if you come along to my gym and watch some of the boys doing their flys you wont see any of them coming all the way up (check out arnie in pumping iron for the perfect fly) also before you start the movement squeeze your shoulder blades together on the bench and you cant come so far down at the bottom of the movement because youve already stretched the pecs thats a little trick i learned from lee labrada many years ago and he done that with all his chest movements and look at those pecs for proof. you cant lift as much weight using that method but its results that matter. trees are ok but cant say i want to get intimate with one

MZiggy

Someone said you dont bend your elbows on flys? Iv always seen them done elbows bent out and bend them slightly as you come up. isnt that right?

Biggly

They should be a little bit bent because otherwise the joint is taking the weight but I keep em as straight as I can without actually being straight


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

eddieod

imo you should have them bent and keep it the same throughout the movement you cannot lift nearly half the weight with a straight arm and risk injury done any other way. starting straight and changing as you lower is very dangerous as the time to bend can become confusing at high intensity when done heavy. its the first iv herd of a straight arm fly anyway you must be using 30 kg db or less cause i think most would struggle with any more than that

NFOMan

Yo, Clay guy. You just explained why my flys were both painful and un productive. I'm now going to hug that friggin tree!

Thanks

oneovercabin

I'm wondering if I should consider flys a push or pull exercise. I suppose push, since they recruit the muscles involved in pushing more than the ones involved in pulling. Any thoughts?

NFOMan

I think that it depends on the angle of resistence. If you're doin flat horizontal ones, its a push. As you do inclines I think its both. and as you get vertical they're called flyes.

My opinion.