Free squats VS. Smith machine Squats after a back injury?

**P-funk** · 04-16-2008, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I had a very serious lower back injury a few years ago and I had a sports medicine physio get me back to function by doing squats, very low weight but free. Lots of stretches for the hip and lower back area, had to get untwisted. But he didn't have me do ANY of my rehab on machines.

My .02

Our rehab/physical therapy facility has NO machines either. Power rack, bars, bumper plates, DBs, med balls and two free motion towers.

Quote:

also, does anyone know recovery time for a hernia surgery? had one in high school as well, but just cant remember, i think it was about a month before i really hit the weights again. they say you should be back to normal activities in a few days. is this true?

Depends on how the surgery is performed. If it is laparoscopically, you will be back in a few days. If they cut you open, you will be out for a number of weeks. I would choose laparoscopically if you have a choice.

gixxer0.6g · 04-16-2008, 07:54 AM

Another Montana guy. Where abouts? I do those front squats too and really like them.

k-lock · 04-16-2008, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gixxer0.6g

Another Montana guy. Where abouts? I do those front squats too and really like them.

Wat up! over in Zootown, Missoula. Wherebouts you at?

Man I got tha hernia surgery done last tuesday, lil over a week ago. anyways im pissed cause the f'n surgeon "didn't believe in laproscopic" -idiot-. so he sliced me open...i shoulda tried a different doc, but it was the VA and it was free so...? and i didnt want to wait another month or two to get rescheduled! sucks boy...im still sore as hell...think ima be out for another week or two. They also cut a lump outa my chest the same day! found out it was just gyno-thank god, ha! they were scarring me for a while there!

that being said, anyone know if doing the squats are gonna be any different now, i mean, i should still be able to do them...right!?! of course i will have to slowly work in AGAIN...damn! oh'well think im finnally all fixed up now tho!

Merkaba · 04-17-2008, 01:45 PM

I support the notion that the smith machine isnt the greatest. Never been a fan of it and always agreed that your body can't move in a straight line ever.

jchappj · 05-08-2008, 06:36 AM

Jumping in to this squat thread late... but I was hoping to get current opinions of how far to go down doing a squat. I've read both camps of NEVER beyond 90 degrees and also you NEVER get a copmplete excercise unless you go all the way down. Having had lower back surgery myself I would appreciate your input and some reasons why you support either side. Tx.

Merkaba · 05-08-2008, 07:05 AM

look into Chi lel version of wall squats. Amazing. I do them but I need space and heel cheats.

**Built** · 05-08-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchappj

Jumping in to this squat thread late... but I was hoping to get current opinions of how far to go down doing a squat. I've read both camps of NEVER beyond 90 degrees and also you NEVER get a copmplete excercise unless you go all the way down. Having had lower back surgery myself I would appreciate your input and some reasons why you support either side. Tx.

Have you ever seen a small child squat down to play in a mud puddle? They sit on their heels, right?

How about peasants out in fields - same thing, right?

Where do you ever see people naturally stopping at ninety? In fact, 90 degrees is the position where your knee joint has some pretty slack ligaments all around it - great, now you're going to switch direction, in the very position where your knee is the MOST unstable. Sounds pretty dumb when you consider it.

There's also the argument that going deeper than 90 means your knee will travel over the toe. D'UH! Try walking up and down stairs without this happening. So the position is not only safe, but natural.

Bottom line - if you want to always be able to perform natural movement patterns, train them.

thewicked · 05-08-2008, 09:40 AM

the best advice you'll ever get for squatting on the smith machine...

1) DON'T!!!

2) REPEAT!!!

jchappj · 05-08-2008, 09:55 AM

Thanks Built that makes sense. I've actualy been going low for my squats but got a 'tip' at the gym yesterday about the 90 degree thing so I thought I'd see what everyone thought. I do admit that I've used the Smith machine though. I stopped after reading all the bad press it got. On the other hand I started using goblet squats, which I think is a prety cool exercise.

JonnyStead · 05-08-2008, 10:47 AM

I'm not convinced about the risks of stopping at 90 - I bow down to Builts experience but ultimately you have to push up past this 'weak' point Built describes whether you start at 90 degrees then back up or whether you go beyond 90 degrees. Thats just my view

Witchblade · 05-08-2008, 10:55 AM

90° of knee flexion is the most straining position for your knee. What built said is not an opinion.

AKIRA · 05-08-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Interesting. I never feel humiliated when I feel like a woman. But then, maybe that's because I never do squats standing on a freaking BOSU ball lol!

I can't see the benefit of doing those. To me, they're just silly, and don't mimic ANY natural movement you are likely to perform. They limit the amount you can lift, thus preventing you from getting stronger.

Ok I had to stop at this point and agree.

At UF, we got some trainers in there, one especially, doing 1 legged squats on the BOSUs upside down! WHY? Training for a circus? "Unstable but cotrolled environment" is tried and true, but this doesn tlook controlled.

I sometimes see this guy at FRIDAYS and I wonder if I should approach him... Dont get me wrong fellas, I am just as direct in person as I am on here and I dont act like this sparingly.

Do you dare me to ask him?

Oh and another reason why I quoted you Built. Anyone can chime in on this one though.. I recently have been doing Front Squats and despite the strength I have on Back Squats, my Front Squats are pretty weak. Like today I did 4x6 of 185lbs with 90 sec RI.

Its not the weight that I am being careful with, its the form and the placement of the bar.

I cross my arms over the bar instead of trying to keep my elbows up. Its just more comfortable and at this rate, if I change now I will be back tracking. SO! With that in mind, will the bar fuck up my shoulders when I go past 225lbs? Has anyone experienced any sort of pain where the bar rests on the front deltoids when doing Front Squats?

Thanks.

JonnyStead · 05-09-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

90ï¿½ of knee flexion is the most straining position for your knee. What built said is not an opinion.

Ah - the encouragement of the sharing of ideas and thoughts - you cant beat it! :wink:

Witchblade · 05-09-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyStead

Ah - the encouragement of the sharing of ideas and thoughts - you cant beat it! :wink:

Sharing ideas is great, except when talking about facts. That's why the 'isolating parts of a muscle' debate is useless too.

In all fairness, backing up facts with arguments is of course imperative.

The argument built was referring to (I happen to have it) :

Quote:

Comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces during open-kinetic-chain and closed-kinetic-chain exercises

GE Lutz, RA Palmitier, KN An and EY Chao
Biomechanics Laboratory, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota.

The purpose of this study was to analyze forces at the tibiofemoral joint during open and closed-kinetic-chain exercises. Five healthy subjects performed maximum isometric contractions at 30, 60, and 90 degrees of knee flexion during open-kinetic-chain extension, open-kinetic-chain flexion, and closed-kinetic-chain exercises. Electromyographic activity of the quadriceps and hamstrings, as well as load and torque-cell data, were recorded. Tibiofemoral shear and compression forces were calculated with use of a two-dimensional biomechanical model. The results showed that, during the open-kinetic-chain extension exercise, maximum posterior shear forces (the resisting forces to anterior drawer) of 285 +/- 120 newtons (mean and standard deviation) occurred at 30 degrees of knee flexion and maximum anterior shear forces (the resisting forces to posterior drawer) of 1780 +/- 699 newtons occurred at 90 degrees of knee flexion. The closed-kinetic-chain exercise produced significantly less posterior shear force at all angles when compared with the open-kinetic-chain extension exercise. In addition, the closed-kinetic-chain exercise produced significantly less anterior shear force at all angles except 30 degrees when compared with the open-kinetic-chain flexion exercise (p < 0.05). Analysis of tibiofemoral compression forces and electromyographic recruitment patterns revealed that the closed-kinetic-chain exercise produced significantly greater compression forces and increased muscular co-contraction at the same angles at which the open-kinetic-chain exercises produced maximum shear forces and minimum muscular co-contraction.

**Built** · 05-09-2008, 11:39 AM

Translation:
If you do leg extensions, keep 'em relatively light and do only the top third of the movement. <- I had a doctor tell me to do this for knee tracking prehab/rehab, and it worked a charm. Don't go heavy or full ROM on these - the knee shear will destroy you.
If you want to build leg muscle - and NOT trash your knees - perform ass to the grass free squats. Proportionally more of the force is distributed through the flexed muscle and less through knee shear.

How'd I do?

AKIRA · 05-09-2008, 11:56 AM

Great! Now answer my above question!!!

**Built** · 05-09-2008, 12:48 PM

About the difficulty in grip limiting your lift? I agree. That's why I use the "Poliquin Strap Trick"

**CowPimp** · 05-09-2008, 01:20 PM

If you have the mobility in your hips and ankles to squat deep, why wouldn't you do it? If you don't have the mobility, then start working on it, start right now, and work on it every single day until you can. The assumption that going below a 90 degree knee flexion angle in the squat is dangerous is something that, I swear, must have been started by people who are too fucking lazy to squat to appropriate depth.

As Built said, everyone squats deep from birth. Watch small children, or people in third world countries where they still squat ass to grass in order to poop or eat. Use that range of motion or lose it. She also made a good point about the knee being most unstable at 90 degrees of flexion. When athletic trainers do tests to determine the site of an injury to the knee, they do most of these stability tests, such as the commoinly used anterior drawer test, with the knee flexed to 90 degrees.

Competition depth squats are below 90 degrees of knee flexion, plain and simple. Unless you can get to that level with your shins perfectly perpendicular to the floor, which is virtually impossible, then you're going to have greater than 90 degrees of knee flexion.

Phoenix87 · 05-09-2008, 02:20 PM

I should know that Built would be chiming in whenever the "Smith Machine" thingy is mentioned... I just can't figure out how to do a one arm squat without one!! Only few more weeks to go...

AKIRA · 05-09-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

If you have the mobility in your hips and ankles to squat deep, why wouldn't you do it? If you don't have the mobility, then start working on it, start right now, and work on it every single day until you can. The assumption that going below a 90 degree knee flexion angle in the squat is dangerous is something that, I swear, must have been started by people who are too fucking lazy to squat to appropriate depth.

As Built said, everyone squats deep from birth. Watch small children, or people in third world countries where they still squat ass to grass in order to poop or eat. Use that range of motion or lose it. She also made a good point about the knee being most unstable at 90 degrees of flexion. When athletic trainers do tests to determine the site of an injury to the knee, they do most of these stability tests, such as the commoinly used anterior drawer test, with the knee flexed to 90 degrees.

Competition depth squats are below 90 degrees of knee flexion, plain and simple. Unless you can get to that level with your shins perfectly perpendicular to the floor, which is virtually impossible, then you're going to have greater than 90 degrees of knee flexion.

The first bold statement made me laugh pretty hard cuz I can see someone(not just you), stopping at "I swear," shake their head, and then follow up with some frustration. Its a great point, but damn funny.

The second bold statement...if your shins were perpendicular to the floor, your back will round wont it?

biggfly · 05-09-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

If you have the mobility in your hips and ankles to squat deep, why wouldn't you do it? If you don't have the mobility, then start working on it, start right now, and work on it every single day until you can. The assumption that going below a 90 degree knee flexion angle in the squat is dangerous is something that, I swear, must have been started by people who are too fucking lazy to squat to appropriate depth.

As Built said, everyone squats deep from birth. Watch small children, or people in third world countries where they still squat ass to grass in order to poop or eat. Use that range of motion or lose it. She also made a good point about the knee being most unstable at 90 degrees of flexion. When athletic trainers do tests to determine the site of an injury to the knee, they do most of these stability tests, such as the commoinly used anterior drawer test, with the knee flexed to 90 degrees.

Competition depth squats are below 90 degrees of knee flexion, plain and simple. Unless you can get to that level with your shins perfectly perpendicular to the floor, which is virtually impossible, then you're going to have greater than 90 degrees of knee flexion.

The part I liked was the pooping part...if I squatted ass to grass to poop, I would leave a mess on my cheeks...just a little visual for you all...!!!

biggfly · 05-09-2008, 06:15 PM

Sorry, it's Friday and I need a Corona but I'm not drinking!! Fuck vanity is rough!!!

biggfly · 05-09-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k-lock

Wat up! over in Zootown, Missoula. Wherebouts you at?

Man I got tha hernia surgery done last tuesday, lil over a week ago. anyways im pissed cause the f'n surgeon "didn't believe in laproscopic" -idiot-. so he sliced me open...i shoulda tried a different doc, but it was the VA and it was free so...? and i didnt want to wait another month or two to get rescheduled! sucks boy...im still sore as hell...think ima be out for another week or two. They also cut a lump outa my chest the same day! found out it was just gyno-thank god, ha! they were scarring me for a while there!

that being said, anyone know if doing the squats are gonna be any different now, i mean, i should still be able to do them...right!?! of course i will have to slowly work in AGAIN...damn! oh'well think im finnally all fixed up now tho!

Zootown here as well...wow, what are the chances 3 redneck Montana guys on the same site and thread...world is coming to a freaking end!!

**Built** · 05-09-2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix87

I should know that Built would be chiming in whenever the "Smith Machine" thingy is mentioned... I just can't figure out how to do a one arm squat without one!! Only few more weeks to go...

??? <confused> ???

Sorry, newb question here (

), but what's a one-arm squat?

biggfly · 05-09-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

??? <confused> ???

Sorry, newb question here (

), but what's a one-arm squat?

Rookie...come on everyone knows what a one arm squat is...

05-08-2008, 06:36 AM	#35
jchappj I Don't Feel Tardy! Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 284 Photos: 1	Jumping in to this squat thread late... but I was hoping to get current opinions of how far to go down doing a squat. I've read both camps of NEVER beyond 90 degrees and also you NEVER get a copmplete excercise unless you go all the way down. Having had lower back surgery myself I would appreciate your input and some reasons why you support either side. Tx.
	You are in charge of the research and development, production, and marketing of the product known as you. You have a responisibility to yourself... take charge!

05-08-2008, 07:05 AM	#36
Merkaba Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: sc Posts: 63	look into Chi lel version of wall squats. Amazing. I do them but I need space and heel cheats.
	"Woa, look at those titties...I wish I had two more hands....so I could give those titties, four thumbs down!!!" - Dave Chappell

05-08-2008, 09:40 AM	#38
thewicked THE FRIDGE Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: the underground, TX Posts: 139	the best advice you'll ever get for squatting on the smith machine... 1) DON'T!!! 2) REPEAT!!!
	PROUD TO BE SPONSORED BY APT WWW.PROWRISTSTRAPS.COM AND ATLARGE NUTRITION!

05-08-2008, 09:55 AM	#39
jchappj I Don't Feel Tardy! Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 284 Photos: 1	Thanks Built that makes sense. I've actualy been going low for my squats but got a 'tip' at the gym yesterday about the 90 degree thing so I thought I'd see what everyone thought. I do admit that I've used the Smith machine though. I stopped after reading all the bad press it got. On the other hand I started using goblet squats, which I think is a prety cool exercise.
	You are in charge of the research and development, production, and marketing of the product known as you. You have a responisibility to yourself... take charge!

05-08-2008, 10:47 AM	#40
JonnyStead Good old English grit Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: England Posts: 374 Photos: 4	I'm not convinced about the risks of stopping at 90 - I bow down to Builts experience but ultimately you have to push up past this 'weak' point Built describes whether you start at 90 degrees then back up or whether you go beyond 90 degrees. Thats just my view
	I'm 34 - when am I officially an old fart?

04-16-2008, 07:54 AM	#32
gixxer0.6g Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 30	Another Montana guy. Where abouts? I do those front squats too and really like them.

04-17-2008, 01:45 PM	#34
Merkaba Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: sc Posts: 63	I support the notion that the smith machine isnt the greatest. Never been a fan of it and always agreed that your body can't move in a straight line ever.

05-08-2008, 10:55 AM	#41
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 3,944 Photos: 2	90° of knee flexion is the most straining position for your knee. What built said is not an opinion.
	My Journal My Linkdump [LSFW] IM Official FAQ [WORK IN PROGRESS]

05-09-2008, 11:39 AM	#45
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 717	Translation: If you do leg extensions, keep 'em relatively light and do only the top third of the movement. <- I had a doctor tell me to do this for knee tracking prehab/rehab, and it worked a charm. Don't go heavy or full ROM on these - the knee shear will destroy you. If you want to build leg muscle - and NOT trash your knees - perform ass to the grass free squats. Proportionally more of the force is distributed through the flexed muscle and less through knee shear. How'd I do?

05-09-2008, 11:56 AM	#46
AKIRA I am Rollo Tomassee.. Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Outside the box Posts: 7,119 Photos: 3	Great! Now answer my above question!!!
	6' 209lbs (8/16) Bench 360 (11/29) Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19) Squat 370 Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17) NASM certified 2/06 Journal

05-09-2008, 12:48 PM	#47
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 717	About the difficulty in grip limiting your lift? I agree. That's why I use the "Poliquin Strap Trick"

05-09-2008, 01:20 PM	#48
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,375	If you have the mobility in your hips and ankles to squat deep, why wouldn't you do it? If you don't have the mobility, then start working on it, start right now, and work on it every single day until you can. The assumption that going below a 90 degree knee flexion angle in the squat is dangerous is something that, I swear, must have been started by people who are too fucking lazy to squat to appropriate depth. As Built said, everyone squats deep from birth. Watch small children, or people in third world countries where they still squat ass to grass in order to poop or eat. Use that range of motion or lose it. She also made a good point about the knee being most unstable at 90 degrees of flexion. When athletic trainers do tests to determine the site of an injury to the knee, they do most of these stability tests, such as the commoinly used anterior drawer test, with the knee flexed to 90 degrees. Competition depth squats are below 90 degrees of knee flexion, plain and simple. Unless you can get to that level with your shins perfectly perpendicular to the floor, which is virtually impossible, then you're going to have greater than 90 degrees of knee flexion.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace

05-09-2008, 02:20 PM	#49
Phoenix87 Crash & Burn Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Conn. Posts: 83 Photos: 3	I should know that Built would be chiming in whenever the "Smith Machine" thingy is mentioned... I just can't figure out how to do a one arm squat without one!! Only few more weeks to go...

05-09-2008, 06:15 PM	#52
biggfly Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: u.s.a Posts: 390 Photos: 2	Sorry, it's Friday and I need a Corona but I'm not drinking!! Fuck vanity is rough!!!