soreness/increase weights/spacing.

natural^ · 04-07-2008, 05:33 PM

hello, first of all jsut saying whats up, just joined the forums.
ok, so i googled lifting while still sore and it came up to an older thread on here. my question is my arms are still sore (tri's more so than bi's of course) from the upper body workout i did on saturday. (all bi's/tri's/forearm.) its monday and my lower biceps still feel a little sore, so im unsure of whether to continue through with my back exercise or jsut can it untill tomorrow?

my workout is SAT: bis tris forearms SUN:rest fully MON:back delts/abs TUES: chest/traps WED-FRI: off. this leads into my next question (yes i have alot :/ but no one around where i live really lifts) should i space out my workouts more? as in MON work back/delts TUES off WED chest/traps THURS/FRI off? to be honest, i dont have a official training schedule, i do train on the days listed above but it feels weird leaving WED-FRI off.

my last question is: when i lift (bi's) i reverse pyramid my weights. but i am a little unsure( and hesitant) to increase or stay with the weights i use because of lifting TOO much and damaging the muscles and taking longer recovery or i dont want to plateau. is there a way that you know its time to up it up?

i know this is alot of subjects in one post but any help would be much appreciated on any of the 3 topics.

thanks

**P-funk** · 04-07-2008, 06:13 PM

a) you need to get a better schedule.

b) where is the leg training?

c) stop worrying about bi's as much as worrying about putting weight on the bar in real exercises.

d) It sounds like you are starting out. I would go with something like a total body workout 3x's a week.

e) check out the stickies at the top of the training forum to get ideas.

natural^ · 04-07-2008, 06:26 PM

well actually no, im not a beginner, haha. im 17 and have gained a fair amount of muscle mass. - naturally im lean and skinny but ive bulked up pretty good in the last year. as to my schedule what is wrong with it, is it that i cluster workout days together too much, or combine the wrong body workouts together? i have time in the week to exercise any day though its really not smart every other day or other other day is more beneficial.

as for legs, im a tennis player, and although most ppl dont associate tennis with lots of work, it is, alot on your legs, so my legs get plenty of workout as it is besids the fact that im not a upside down triangle, im still working on lats and upper body, im pretty proportional.

as to point C) i dont really udnerstand what youre saying.

biggfly · 04-07-2008, 06:42 PM

What he is saying overall is your workouts are not as productive or efficient as they could be. Don't think of it (workouts)in bodyparts, think of it in movements. Meaning have maybe an upper horizontal day push/pull(bench press, dips, barbell rows, tri dumbell overhead press, kneeling DB rows). Have a leg day focusing on quads(squats, leg press), day off, then a vertical upper push/pull day(military press, pullups, lat pulls, individual DB military press) then day 4 do a hamsstring leg day. You are narrowing it into parts, instead of movements. I his C) saying quit worrying about bi's, he is saying you are worrying too much about isolation exercises like curls etc, and not focusing on what builds mass or bulk which is compound(multi joint) exercises(bench,squats,dips,pullups). Iso's won;t build you mass, you simply cannot put enough weight on to stress the fibers enough, hence put weight on a barbell and do work. Don't overdo it, with compounds it is best to have 72+ hours of recover time before doing the same compound again, so don't cluster it close together. Get out of parts, get into the movements. He wasn't insulting you by saying you are a beginner, but your workout appears to be that of one.

natural^ · 04-07-2008, 06:54 PM

nah dude i didnt take it as an insult at all, it truly seems like my sessions are flawed haha. im pretty much here to get some input and whatnot. so if what im getting what youre saying (which is sorta), spread my days out more. as for iso/multi joint exercises, i honestly did not know about that (multi joint > iso).it is then pretty amazing the bulk ive gained from doing purely iso work haha

so again, for example, bench AND tri overheads the same night, would i still work tri's when i work bi's?

biggfly · 04-07-2008, 07:16 PM

Ya bench(barbell or DB, or both. Vary it) and tri's same day is good. Dips are great in that category for tri's and can do chest as well if you have some forward lean on them. But you need some compounds(multi joint) movements, you can do much higher intensity(heavier weight that is) than an iso. Your bi's will get worked quite a bit on pulling movements like rows, etc. You only need a couple iso's for bi's/tri's because they are gettin worked good in your compounds if you are doing them correctly.

biggfly · 04-07-2008, 07:18 PM

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...t-routine.html (Designing a Split Routine)

look here and check out the different ways to vary or structure a routine. Very helpful.

**P-funk** · 04-07-2008, 07:19 PM

Judging by your workouts. Your age and the comments you made regarding training and tennis playing....i would say you are a rank beginer. Sorry, you aren't as advanced as you think you are. In fact, if you weren't a beginner, you wouldn't be asking questions about how to sequence workouts. Advanced trainees understand how to put together their training.

biggfly · 04-07-2008, 07:23 PM

On an off note...P-Funk what is your #1 back exercise you feel you absolutely will not leave out??

**P-funk** · 04-07-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggfly

On an off note...P-Funk what is your #1 back exercise you feel you absolutely will not leave out??

Don't really have a number one...I guess it I had to say true pulling exercises, I would go with chin ups and some sort of row (but not DB rows).

Other than that, the deadlift pretty much smokes the shit out of the erectors.

biggfly · 04-07-2008, 07:30 PM

Cool thanks. I don't do Db rows, i stick to bent over barbell rows. ANd deads, yes. Thanks man...

natural^ · 04-07-2008, 07:33 PM

biggfly- thanks for the links and helpful advice, i'll be sure to check into it and other links/topics on the forum, just registered today.
p-yeah talking on here made me realize i am that haha, but whatever, all in time.

biggfly · 04-07-2008, 07:38 PM

No sweat man...keep reading and find one that works. At seventeen, I had no clue either. Don't stick to one program forever, periodization is good, as you will read.

**P-funk** · 04-07-2008, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natural^

biggfly- thanks for the links and helpful advice, i'll be sure to check into it and other links/topics on the forum, just registered today.
p-yeah talking on here made me realize i am that haha, but whatever, all in time.

here is what i would do.....

1) figure out your goals...get better at tennis? get bigger?

2) establish a set training schedule (day 1 I do this. day 2 I do that, etc.)

3) pick your exercises

4) pick the sets and reps for those exercises thatbest suit your goals.

5) have at it.

natural^ · 04-07-2008, 07:45 PM

i used to be a competitive player but then really enjoyed workingout and lifting so that hampered tennis with the flexiblitly and agility so i quit playing tournaments and just stuck to high school, which does nothing really.

yeah i have a pretty good understanding of what to start doing and what not, just as a curious question, bigg (or P i forget) said that isolation alone wont do justice when workingout...i do have fairly big arms with muscle mass (and no im not trying to sound or be advanced) but had i continue with isolation training would these gains stop?

natural^ · 04-07-2008, 07:48 PM

by the way, when i mean fairlybig i mean compared to people in my school, not yall. just clarrifying.

**P-funk** · 04-07-2008, 07:54 PM

those gains wont stop...and, you don't ahve to stop doing isolation work either. Just make the larger, more compound movements a priority and you will reap much better gains in terms of size and strength. but don't forget about the smaller muscles either.

HialeahChico305 · 04-07-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Don't really have a number one...I guess it I had to say true pulling exercises, I would go with chin ups and some sort of row (but not DB rows).

Other than that, the deadlift pretty much smokes the shit out of the erectors.

P can you give an explanation on why your leaving out DB rows from your list?

**P-funk** · 04-07-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HialeahChico305

P can you give an explanation on why your leaving out DB rows from your list?

I find the exercise works my biceps more and doesn't allow me to effectively retract my shoulder blade. This is esspecially true as the DB's get bigger (heavier).

I usually will perform cable rows, hammer strength iso-row (one arm at a time), standing single arm cable row, or bent over BB rows with slower tempo, using no momentum from my lower body and working on retractio the shoulder blade at each rep and holding for a moment before lowering (this makes it a lot tougher and really drops the weight. With some leg momentum, I can easly get 225-235. If I work the form slower and use no momentum, I am around 155-175 for reps. I also only do this exercise for higher reps, 10-15 as the lower the reps, the heavier the weight gets and the more stress it places on my lower back having to hold in that position).

Hoglander · 04-07-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I find the exercise works my biceps more and doesn't allow me to effectively retract my shoulder blade. This is esspecially true as the DB's get bigger (heavier).

I usually will perform cable rows, hammer strength iso-row (one arm at a time), standing single arm cable row, or bent over BB rows with slower tempo, using no momentum from my lower body and working on retractio the shoulder blade at each rep and holding for a moment before lowering (this makes it a lot tougher and really drops the weight. With some leg momentum, I can easly get 225-235. If I work the form slower and use no momentum, I am around 155-175 for reps. I also only do this exercise for higher reps, 10-15 as the lower the reps, the heavier the weight gets and the more stress it places on my lower back having to hold in that position).

I don't see other people doing it but I retract my blades with my arm straight for the same number of reps as I plan to do for the full movement and hold it. It's kind of a a pre-exhaustion thing I do. I guess I use heavy weights.. over 100lbs for DB rows. I just like to protect my lower back so I like them and use them. They work well for me. I know others are different.

NFOMan · 04-16-2008, 08:17 PM

According to my experience and the other guys, you're trying to do too much too soon. Bodybuilding takes years and you have to commit to the pain

Keep your energy up and keep on truckin! (an old phrase)

We, expect to see your improvement on this forum in the future!

04-07-2008, 06:13 PM	#2
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	a) you need to get a better schedule. b) where is the leg training? c) stop worrying about bi's as much as worrying about putting weight on the bar in real exercises. d) It sounds like you are starting out. I would go with something like a total body workout 3x's a week. e) check out the stickies at the top of the training forum to get ideas.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-07-2008, 07:19 PM	#8
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	Judging by your workouts. Your age and the comments you made regarding training and tennis playing....i would say you are a rank beginer. Sorry, you aren't as advanced as you think you are. In fact, if you weren't a beginner, you wouldn't be asking questions about how to sequence workouts. Advanced trainees understand how to put together their training.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-07-2008, 07:54 PM	#17
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,136	those gains wont stop...and, you don't ahve to stop doing isolation work either. Just make the larger, more compound movements a priority and you will reap much better gains in terms of size and strength. but don't forget about the smaller muscles either.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-16-2008, 08:17 PM	#21
NFOMan Member Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: OK Posts: 124	Man, stay cool According to my experience and the other guys, you're trying to do too much too soon. Bodybuilding takes years and you have to commit to the pain Keep your energy up and keep on truckin! (an old phrase) We, expect to see your improvement on this forum in the future!

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04-07-2008, 05:33 PM	#1
natural^ hates emos. Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: usa Posts: 228	soreness/increase weights/spacing. BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com hello, first of all jsut saying whats up, just joined the forums. ok, so i googled lifting while still sore and it came up to an older thread on here. my question is my arms are still sore (tri's more so than bi's of course) from the upper body workout i did on saturday. (all bi's/tri's/forearm.) its monday and my lower biceps still feel a little sore, so im unsure of whether to continue through with my back exercise or jsut can it untill tomorrow? my workout is SAT: bis tris forearms SUN:rest fully MON:back delts/abs TUES: chest/traps WED-FRI: off. this leads into my next question (yes i have alot :/ but no one around where i live really lifts) should i space out my workouts more? as in MON work back/delts TUES off WED chest/traps THURS/FRI off? to be honest, i dont have a official training schedule, i do train on the days listed above but it feels weird leaving WED-FRI off. my last question is: when i lift (bi's) i reverse pyramid my weights. but i am a little unsure( and hesitant) to increase or stay with the weights i use because of lifting TOO much and damaging the muscles and taking longer recovery or i dont want to plateau. is there a way that you know its time to up it up? i know this is alot of subjects in one post but any help would be much appreciated on any of the 3 topics. thanks

04-07-2008, 06:26 PM	#3
natural^ hates emos. Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: usa Posts: 228	well actually no, im not a beginner, haha. im 17 and have gained a fair amount of muscle mass. - naturally im lean and skinny but ive bulked up pretty good in the last year. as to my schedule what is wrong with it, is it that i cluster workout days together too much, or combine the wrong body workouts together? i have time in the week to exercise any day though its really not smart every other day or other other day is more beneficial. as for legs, im a tennis player, and although most ppl dont associate tennis with lots of work, it is, alot on your legs, so my legs get plenty of workout as it is besids the fact that im not a upside down triangle, im still working on lats and upper body, im pretty proportional. as to point C) i dont really udnerstand what youre saying.

04-07-2008, 06:42 PM	#4
biggfly Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: u.s.a Posts: 382 Photos: 2	What he is saying overall is your workouts are not as productive or efficient as they could be. Don't think of it (workouts)in bodyparts, think of it in movements. Meaning have maybe an upper horizontal day push/pull(bench press, dips, barbell rows, tri dumbell overhead press, kneeling DB rows). Have a leg day focusing on quads(squats, leg press), day off, then a vertical upper push/pull day(military press, pullups, lat pulls, individual DB military press) then day 4 do a hamsstring leg day. You are narrowing it into parts, instead of movements. I his C) saying quit worrying about bi's, he is saying you are worrying too much about isolation exercises like curls etc, and not focusing on what builds mass or bulk which is compound(multi joint) exercises(bench,squats,dips,pullups). Iso's won;t build you mass, you simply cannot put enough weight on to stress the fibers enough, hence put weight on a barbell and do work. Don't overdo it, with compounds it is best to have 72+ hours of recover time before doing the same compound again, so don't cluster it close together. Get out of parts, get into the movements. He wasn't insulting you by saying you are a beginner, but your workout appears to be that of one.

04-07-2008, 06:54 PM	#5
natural^ hates emos. Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: usa Posts: 228	nah dude i didnt take it as an insult at all, it truly seems like my sessions are flawed haha. im pretty much here to get some input and whatnot. so if what im getting what youre saying (which is sorta), spread my days out more. as for iso/multi joint exercises, i honestly did not know about that (multi joint > iso).it is then pretty amazing the bulk ive gained from doing purely iso work haha so again, for example, bench AND tri overheads the same night, would i still work tri's when i work bi's?

04-07-2008, 07:16 PM	#6
biggfly Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: u.s.a Posts: 382 Photos: 2	Ya bench(barbell or DB, or both. Vary it) and tri's same day is good. Dips are great in that category for tri's and can do chest as well if you have some forward lean on them. But you need some compounds(multi joint) movements, you can do much higher intensity(heavier weight that is) than an iso. Your bi's will get worked quite a bit on pulling movements like rows, etc. You only need a couple iso's for bi's/tri's because they are gettin worked good in your compounds if you are doing them correctly.

04-07-2008, 07:18 PM	#7
biggfly Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: u.s.a Posts: 382 Photos: 2	http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...t-routine.html (Designing a Split Routine) look here and check out the different ways to vary or structure a routine. Very helpful.

04-07-2008, 07:23 PM	#9
biggfly Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: u.s.a Posts: 382 Photos: 2	On an off note...P-Funk what is your #1 back exercise you feel you absolutely will not leave out??

04-07-2008, 07:30 PM	#11
biggfly Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: u.s.a Posts: 382 Photos: 2	Cool thanks. I don't do Db rows, i stick to bent over barbell rows. ANd deads, yes. Thanks man...

04-07-2008, 07:33 PM	#12
natural^ hates emos. Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: usa Posts: 228	biggfly- thanks for the links and helpful advice, i'll be sure to check into it and other links/topics on the forum, just registered today. p-yeah talking on here made me realize i am that haha, but whatever, all in time.

04-07-2008, 07:38 PM	#13
biggfly Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: u.s.a Posts: 382 Photos: 2	No sweat man...keep reading and find one that works. At seventeen, I had no clue either. Don't stick to one program forever, periodization is good, as you will read.

04-07-2008, 07:45 PM	#15
natural^ hates emos. Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: usa Posts: 228	i used to be a competitive player but then really enjoyed workingout and lifting so that hampered tennis with the flexiblitly and agility so i quit playing tournaments and just stuck to high school, which does nothing really. yeah i have a pretty good understanding of what to start doing and what not, just as a curious question, bigg (or P i forget) said that isolation alone wont do justice when workingout...i do have fairly big arms with muscle mass (and no im not trying to sound or be advanced) but had i continue with isolation training would these gains stop?

04-07-2008, 07:48 PM	#16
natural^ hates emos. Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: usa Posts: 228	by the way, when i mean fairlybig i mean compared to people in my school, not yall. just clarrifying.