Hey, could you all clear something up for me?

martin529 · 05-12-2008, 08:16 AM

Hey everyone. I'm looking into getting back into the gym for a different reason. I used to do extremely high reps for endurance training in regards to mixed martial arts, but somewhere along the lines my goals have shifted from competing in tournaments to getting bigger. Right now I am about 5'8 150lbs with about 15-17% bodyfat and am slightly confused.

What I am confused about isn't the amount of sets or reps, what or how much to eat, or what routine is best for me, but moreso I am confused by how much time people are telling me I should spend in the gym. I hear some people saying 30 minutes to an hour and some saying 2 hours+. I come from the school that believes that you can't do anything in a limited amount of time no matter how hard someone works. I feel that many fitness experts feed us what we want to hear. Unfortunately I have bought into one thing; I am truly afraid of overtraining. So far here is what I plan on using to gain mass and the set/rep scheme isn't set, but I do plan on pyramidding it and altering it as I progress. Would this have me in the gym too long or cause me to overtrain? Any input is greatly appreciated.

Here is what I plan on using and switching between in the next year.

3 Day Split Every two weeks substitute Snatch High Pull, Clean High Pull, and Power Cleans into back workout.

Back/Biceps:
Pullups/lat pulldown 4x10
Barbell Row/Seated Rows 3x6, 8, 10
Shrugs 3x6, 8, 10
Standing Barbell Curls 3x8, 10, 12
Hammer Curls 3x8, 10, 12
Ab Pullovers
Leg Lifts

Chest/Triceps/Shoulders
Incline Dumbbell Press 3x6, 8, 10
Bench Press 3x6, 8, 10
Military Press 3x6, 8, 10
Upright Row 3x 6, 8, 10
Lateral Raises 3x6, 8, 10
Dips 3x10
Triceps Extensions 3x8, 10, 12
Triceps Pushdown 3x8, 10, 12

Legs
Squats 3x6, 8, 10
Deadlifts 3x5
Leg Extension 3x8, 10, 12
Leg Press 3x6, 8, 10
Leg Curl 3x8, 10, 10
Standing Calf Raises 4x10, 12, 15, 20
Seated Calf Raises 3x10, 15, 20

**Gazhole** · 05-12-2008, 08:32 AM

You can totally get an amazingly tough workout in 30 minutes.

Hell, DOMS (a member here) used to do HIT and his workouts were less than 10 minutes and he was dead afterwards.

There are a few simple things you need to remember:

1 - Use mostly compound movements.
2 - Use mostly free-weights.
3 - Keep a balance between all the major areas of the body.

In the program you posted, most of the movements are isolation, there are too many machine exercises, and there is not a great balance. By balance i mean the same amount of upper body work as lower body work, and the same amount of pressing as pulling.

The reason so many people are in the gym for hours on end is that they miss these points.

Isolation exercises arent as taxing as compounds because they dont utilise as much muscle at one time as bigger, multi-jointed exercises do. Machine exercises dont invoke stabilizer muscles and dont take as much mental focus as their free-weight counterparts.

Add those two things up, and the only way youre going to feel you've done enough in your session is if you do a million exercises and a million sets.

My advice would be to scrap this and read the stickied threads at the top of the training section, they outline some great concepts for program design.

Welcome to IM!

martin529 · 05-12-2008, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazhole

You can totally get an amazingly tough workout in 30 minutes.

Hell, DOMS (a member here) used to do HIT and his workouts were less than 10 minutes and he was dead afterwards.

There are a few simple things you need to remember:

1 - Use mostly compound movements.
2 - Use mostly free-weights.
3 - Keep a balance between all the major areas of the body.

In the program you posted, most of the movements are isolation, there are too many machine exercises, and there is not a great balance. By balance i mean the same amount of upper body work as lower body work, and the same amount of pressing as pulling.

The reason so many people are in the gym for hours on end is that they miss these points.

Isolation exercises arent as taxing as compounds because they dont utilise as much muscle at one time as bigger, multi-jointed exercises do. Machine exercises dont invoke stabilizer muscles and dont take as much mental focus as their free-weight counterparts.

Add those two things up, and the only way youre going to feel you've done enough in your session is if you do a million exercises and a million sets.

My advice would be to scrap this and read the stickied threads at the top of the training section, they outline some great concepts for program design.

Welcome to IM!

Thanks! I just read the first one in regards to designing a routine and it is going to be built around squats, deads, military press, bench press, and barbell rows on a 5x5 format.

As much as I don't want to acknowledge that I am a beginner, in truth I am a beginner when it comes to the specific goal I want.

Irons77 · 05-12-2008, 10:35 AM

We all been there bro, hell I learn something about BBing everyday on here

Travis Bell · 05-12-2008, 11:24 AM

I'm usually in the gym for 45min to an hour. Typically closer to an hour

much longer than that and my take is that you're either overtraining or not utilizing your time well enough

martin529 · 05-12-2008, 03:26 PM

Thanks for all of your help guys! I have enough programs to last me for at least 2 years that focus on goals ranging from strength and myrofibrillar hypertrophy to gaining mass and inducing sarcoplasmic hypertrophy :-D. I also have the Strength Training Anatomy book, which I absolutely LOVE! Here are my workout programs ranging from beginner to intermediate! The set/rep schemes of each workout will also change once I get a good solid base :-D.

The leg press on the A/B format is real light and taking the place of squats because of an injury I have. Normally I would squat 3x a week, but that is a no go this time D=. I tore my MCL and stretched out the PCL and ACL about a year ago doing mixed martial arts. The 3day split was derived from cowpimp's designing a training method, so props to him on that!

Strength/5x5

Workout A
Squats 5x5
Barbell Rows 5x5
Deadlift 3x5
Barbell Curls 3x8
Pullups 4xFailure
Calf-Raises 3x15

Workout B
Leg Press 3x5
Bench Press 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Dips 4xFailure
Tricep Extensions 3x8

3 Day

Tuesday Back/Bis
Barbell Row 3x8
Seated Row 3x8
Pullups 4xFailure
Upright Rows 3x8
Shrugs 3x8
Hammer Curls/Barbell Curls 3x8, 8, 10

Wednesday Chest/Tris/Shoulder
Incline Bench Press 3x8
Bench Press 3x8
Dips 4xFailure
Incline Flys 3x8
Military Press 3x8
Lying Lateral Raises 3x8
Tricep Extensions 3x8, 8, 10

Saturday Legs/Abs
Back Squats 3x8
Front Squats 3x8
Deadlift 3x5
Good Mornings 3x8
Calf-Raises 3x10
Cable Crunches
Wood Chops

4 Day Split

Back/Biceps:
Pullups 4x10
Barbell Rows 3x8
Seated Close Grip Rows 3x8
Barbell Shrugs 3x8
Barbell Curls 3x8
Hammer Curls 3x8

Chest/Triceps:
Incline Bench Press 3x8
Flat Bench Press 8/8/6/4
Dips 3x8
Incline Dumbbell Flys 3x8
Triceps Extensions 3x8
Triceps Pushdowns 3x8

Shoulders/Traps:
Military Press 3x8
Seated Shoulder Press 3x8
Lateral Dumbbell Raises 3x8
Upright Rows 3x8
Shrugs 3x10

Legs:
Squats 3x10
Front Squats 3x8
Leg Extensions 3x10
Leg Curls 3x10
Deadlifts 3x5
Seated Calf-raises 3x8
Standing Calf-raises 3xfailure

Protheus · 05-13-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazhole

You can totally get an amazingly tough workout in 30 minutes.

Hell, DOMS (a member here) used to do HIT and his workouts were less than 10 minutes and he was dead afterwards.

There are a few simple things you need to remember:

1 - Use mostly compound movements.
2 - Use mostly free-weights.
3 - Keep a balance between all the major areas of the body.

In the program you posted, most of the movements are isolation, there are too many machine exercises, and there is not a great balance. By balance i mean the same amount of upper body work as lower body work, and the same amount of pressing as pulling.

The reason so many people are in the gym for hours on end is that they miss these points.

Isolation exercises arent as taxing as compounds because they dont utilise as much muscle at one time as bigger, multi-jointed exercises do. Machine exercises dont invoke stabilizer muscles and dont take as much mental focus as their free-weight counterparts.

Add those two things up, and the only way youre going to feel you've done enough in your session is if you do a million exercises and a million sets.

My advice would be to scrap this and read the stickied threads at the top of the training section, they outline some great concepts for program design.

Welcome to IM!

Gazhole you give good advice.

'You can work hard or you can work long'

When I was a pure HIT trainer I remember doing leg-extensions to failure immediately followed by deep-breathing 20 rep squats. I could barely walk for a few minutes after - talk about jelly legs ! - and needed a good 5 mins rest before I could proceed and train the rest of my body. Doing just 2 hard working sets twice a week for my legs my squat went from 90 lbs for 10 reps initially to ~300 lbs for 20 reps at my best (before I stopped training). Modest poundage compared to some but for me, being primarily an ectomorph and hardgainer, it was a great achievement.

45-60 mins is more than adequate to train the entire body let alone just 1-2 bodyparts !

**Gazhole** · 05-13-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protheus

Gazhole you give good advice.

'You can work hard or you can work long'

When I was a pure HIT trainer I remember doing leg-extensions to failure immediately followed by deep-breathing 20 rep squats. I could barely walk for a few minutes after - talk about jelly legs ! - and needed a good 5 mins rest before I could proceed and train the rest of my body. Doing just 2 hard working sets twice a week for my legs my squat went from 90 lbs for 10 reps initially to ~300 lbs for 20 reps at my best (before I stopped training). Modest poundage compared to some but for me, being primarily an ectomorph and hardgainer, it was a great achievement.

45-60 mins is more than adequate to train the entire body let alone just 1-2 bodyparts !

Thanks man

It just occurs to me that, no matter how much you love working out, you want to do other things with your time aswell. If i spent 3 hours in the gym, 5 days a week...i think id get bored of it pretty quickly.

danzik17 · 05-13-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protheus

Gazhole you give good advice.

'You can work hard or you can work long'

When I was a pure HIT trainer I remember doing leg-extensions to failure immediately followed by deep-breathing 20 rep squats. I could barely walk for a few minutes after - talk about jelly legs ! - and needed a good 5 mins rest before I could proceed and train the rest of my body. Doing just 2 hard working sets twice a week for my legs my squat went from 90 lbs for 10 reps initially to ~300 lbs for 20 reps at my best (before I stopped training). Modest poundage compared to some but for me, being primarily an ectomorph and hardgainer, it was a great achievement.

45-60 mins is more than adequate to train the entire body let alone just 1-2 bodyparts !

How in the hell did you ever manage to do breathing squats AFTER doing extensions to failure? I can barely do 20 rep breathing squats when I'm fresh and warmed up, let alone when I'm tired.

martin529 · 05-13-2008, 08:52 PM

Thanks for all of the input guys! Let me know if you all think I am on the right track!

Protheus · 05-14-2008, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

How in the hell did you ever manage to do breathing squats AFTER doing extensions to failure? I can barely do 20 rep breathing squats when I'm fresh and warmed up, let alone when I'm tired.

It was brutally hard and used infrequently - and required reducing the normal poundage I would normally use for breathing squats by ~30-40%.

I don't think I could have pushed myself through it without a wickedly evil training partner, but heh I got my own back when it was his turn !

The anticipation beforehand was worse than waiting in a dentists reception. And I hate going to the dentist!

05-12-2008, 08:16 AM	#1
martin529 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 11	Hey, could you all clear something up for me? Hey everyone. I'm looking into getting back into the gym for a different reason. I used to do extremely high reps for endurance training in regards to mixed martial arts, but somewhere along the lines my goals have shifted from competing in tournaments to getting bigger. Right now I am about 5'8 150lbs with about 15-17% bodyfat and am slightly confused. What I am confused about isn't the amount of sets or reps, what or how much to eat, or what routine is best for me, but moreso I am confused by how much time people are telling me I should spend in the gym. I hear some people saying 30 minutes to an hour and some saying 2 hours+. I come from the school that believes that you can't do anything in a limited amount of time no matter how hard someone works. I feel that many fitness experts feed us what we want to hear. Unfortunately I have bought into one thing; I am truly afraid of overtraining. So far here is what I plan on using to gain mass and the set/rep scheme isn't set, but I do plan on pyramidding it and altering it as I progress. Would this have me in the gym too long or cause me to overtrain? Any input is greatly appreciated. Here is what I plan on using and switching between in the next year. 3 Day Split Every two weeks substitute Snatch High Pull, Clean High Pull, and Power Cleans into back workout. Back/Biceps: Pullups/lat pulldown 4x10 Barbell Row/Seated Rows 3x6, 8, 10 Shrugs 3x6, 8, 10 Standing Barbell Curls 3x8, 10, 12 Hammer Curls 3x8, 10, 12 Ab Pullovers Leg Lifts Chest/Triceps/Shoulders Incline Dumbbell Press 3x6, 8, 10 Bench Press 3x6, 8, 10 Military Press 3x6, 8, 10 Upright Row 3x 6, 8, 10 Lateral Raises 3x6, 8, 10 Dips 3x10 Triceps Extensions 3x8, 10, 12 Triceps Pushdown 3x8, 10, 12 Legs Squats 3x6, 8, 10 Deadlifts 3x5 Leg Extension 3x8, 10, 12 Leg Press 3x6, 8, 10 Leg Curl 3x8, 10, 10 Standing Calf Raises 4x10, 12, 15, 20 Seated Calf Raises 3x10, 15, 20

05-12-2008, 08:32 AM	#2
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 6,532 Photos: 18	You can totally get an amazingly tough workout in 30 minutes. Hell, DOMS (a member here) used to do HIT and his workouts were less than 10 minutes and he was dead afterwards. There are a few simple things you need to remember: 1 - Use mostly compound movements. 2 - Use mostly free-weights. 3 - Keep a balance between all the major areas of the body. In the program you posted, most of the movements are isolation, there are too many machine exercises, and there is not a great balance. By balance i mean the same amount of upper body work as lower body work, and the same amount of pressing as pulling. The reason so many people are in the gym for hours on end is that they miss these points. Isolation exercises arent as taxing as compounds because they dont utilise as much muscle at one time as bigger, multi-jointed exercises do. Machine exercises dont invoke stabilizer muscles and dont take as much mental focus as their free-weight counterparts. Add those two things up, and the only way youre going to feel you've done enough in your session is if you do a million exercises and a million sets. My advice would be to scrap this and read the stickied threads at the top of the training section, they outline some great concepts for program design. Welcome to IM!
	http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 02/12/08 "Do i not like that? No, i do not not like that, i LIKE that!"

05-12-2008, 10:35 AM	#4
Irons77 Training like a bitch Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 824	We all been there bro, hell I learn something about BBing everyday on here
	Soreness is weakness exiting the body.

05-12-2008, 11:24 AM	#5
Travis Bell Westside Bencher Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: United States Posts: 188	I'm usually in the gym for 45min to an hour. Typically closer to an hour much longer than that and my take is that you're either overtraining or not utilizing your time well enough
	AtLargeNutrition - Support the company that supports strength!

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05-12-2008, 03:26 PM	#6
martin529 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 11	Thanks for all of your help guys! I have enough programs to last me for at least 2 years that focus on goals ranging from strength and myrofibrillar hypertrophy to gaining mass and inducing sarcoplasmic hypertrophy :-D. I also have the Strength Training Anatomy book, which I absolutely LOVE! Here are my workout programs ranging from beginner to intermediate! The set/rep schemes of each workout will also change once I get a good solid base :-D. The leg press on the A/B format is real light and taking the place of squats because of an injury I have. Normally I would squat 3x a week, but that is a no go this time D=. I tore my MCL and stretched out the PCL and ACL about a year ago doing mixed martial arts. The 3day split was derived from cowpimp's designing a training method, so props to him on that! Strength/5x5 Workout A Squats 5x5 Barbell Rows 5x5 Deadlift 3x5 Barbell Curls 3x8 Pullups 4xFailure Calf-Raises 3x15 Workout B Leg Press 3x5 Bench Press 5x5 Military Press 5x5 Dips 4xFailure Tricep Extensions 3x8 3 Day Tuesday Back/Bis Barbell Row 3x8 Seated Row 3x8 Pullups 4xFailure Upright Rows 3x8 Shrugs 3x8 Hammer Curls/Barbell Curls 3x8, 8, 10 Wednesday Chest/Tris/Shoulder Incline Bench Press 3x8 Bench Press 3x8 Dips 4xFailure Incline Flys 3x8 Military Press 3x8 Lying Lateral Raises 3x8 Tricep Extensions 3x8, 8, 10 Saturday Legs/Abs Back Squats 3x8 Front Squats 3x8 Deadlift 3x5 Good Mornings 3x8 Calf-Raises 3x10 Cable Crunches Wood Chops 4 Day Split Back/Biceps: Pullups 4x10 Barbell Rows 3x8 Seated Close Grip Rows 3x8 Barbell Shrugs 3x8 Barbell Curls 3x8 Hammer Curls 3x8 Chest/Triceps: Incline Bench Press 3x8 Flat Bench Press 8/8/6/4 Dips 3x8 Incline Dumbbell Flys 3x8 Triceps Extensions 3x8 Triceps Pushdowns 3x8 Shoulders/Traps: Military Press 3x8 Seated Shoulder Press 3x8 Lateral Dumbbell Raises 3x8 Upright Rows 3x8 Shrugs 3x10 Legs: Squats 3x10 Front Squats 3x8 Leg Extensions 3x10 Leg Curls 3x10 Deadlifts 3x5 Seated Calf-raises 3x8 Standing Calf-raises 3xfailure

05-13-2008, 08:52 PM	#10
martin529 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 11	Thanks for all of the input guys! Let me know if you all think I am on the right track!