Thread: I just had an epiphany.

Sounds like you've discovered strict form and focus

All my reps are something like 3-4 secs on both lift/lower for most exercises.

But you are right in some regards - I see alot of lifters in the gym I've joined using bad form - oftentimes this is because they are using a weight which is too heavy (ego) and they would get few reps with it if they kept to strict form. Just last week there was a guy doing lateral raises, just throwing the weights out widely, then letting them 'flop' back down ready for another 'rep'

And the instructors in the place just walk on by...obviously they are highly motivated/dedicated to their profession

I understand the slow eccentrics, but why the slow concentrics?

I do them slowly to eliminate any momentum and give the muscle extra time under tension, plus it just feels better to me. I'm not against more rapid lifting, its just that swinging/excessive cheating defeats the whole point.

Some lifts I do in what would be a more normal cadence - deads for example.

Apparently cats make better gains when they lift in a slow and controlled fashion

Skeletal Muscle Fiber Type

scroll down slightly to where 'lifting speed' is highlighted in bold. How the hell do they get the cats to lift slowly vs ballistically

8 out of 10 cats prefer it

Thats awesome martin, its always good to hear people realize factors or techniques to further themselves.

You're learning the game bro! Keep on going you will be breaking PRs left and right

Originally Posted by Protheus

I do them slowly to eliminate any momentum and give the muscle extra time under tension, plus it just feels better to me. I'm not against more rapid lifting, its just that swinging/excessive cheating defeats the whole point.

Some lifts I do in what would be a more normal cadence - deads for example.

If you add momentum to the concentric you can lift more, and then lower a heavier weight on the eccentric, which is sometimes useful - for example, bicep curls, and many of the rowing movements.

Faster concentrics tend to recruit fast twitch muscle, and slow negs can induce more microtrauma. Fast negs induce a lot of microtrauma as well - but you have to pick and choose these carefully: nobody wants to see you tear a muscle off the bone - but the fast "tug" at the beginning of an oly lift does much to generate microtrauma in that it is a fast negative. My delts blew up when I started doing hang cleans.

Slow concentrics limit the weight you can lift. I'm not a fan.

Why would you teach your body that it is ok to lift the weight slowly?

Be explosive (controlled) on the concentric, and slow (controlled) on the eccentric.

My boy Steve has a new vid that I'd agree with. I agree not because I'm an expert but... I just like Steve. There are way to many wanna bee experts. There is just one Steve Turano.

Well, yes and no (to the originial poster).

Yes, the biggest and strongest bodybuilders do tend to have a good mental connection with the muscles they are training, but they don't train in an overly strict or slow fashion.

I see a lot of online bodybuilding advice recommend very slow and controlled reps. I can tell you that is NOT the optimal way to train. What is optimal is to develop a connection with the muscles you are training and learning to really work them. Some "loosening" of form is necessary with barbell training due to the inherent limitations of the barbell itself.

Yep. Sometimes ya' gotta give it a little "English".

Heres an extensive review - conclusion - fast, explosive lifting is no more effective than lifting in a slow and controlled fashion, but carries a greater risk of injury.

http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/...e-1Feb2007.doc

I can see there are arguments both for and against slow controlled concentrics, and I agree that the most productive portion is actually the negative, for the reasons that Built stated. The argument rages elsewhere too:

The Rep Under a Looking Glass - Bodybuilding.com Forums

It all comes down to what shocks the muscles for that specific person in my opinion, but when I say slow reps I am talking about 2-3 seconds on the concentric and 3-4 seconds on the eccentric. It gives enough time for a person to focus on the exercise, keep strict form, as well as provide a good point for time-under-tension.

Although explosive movements may work for some I for one don't necessarily understand how blasting through a movement can provide better results when most people do the exercises incorrectly to begin with or don't understand the importance of actually focusing on the target muscle.

It has to do with the type of tissue being recruited. You want to recruit the fast-twitch as much as possible, since they're the ones that make you hard and strong. The slow twitch have smaller motor units, and tend to be recruited first. Hence the problem.

From the review...

One of the most controversial issues in this field is the use of ‘explosive’ exercises to increase strength and power. These can be defined as “resistance exercises characterized by maximal or near-maximal rates of force development or by high acceleration” (1). Typical examples of such exercises, commonly prescribed by strength coaches, are Olympic-style lifts such as the clean and jerk and snatch, and derivatives of these such as the power clean and hang clean. Also, so-called ‘plyometric’ exercises defined as “maximal, all out quality efforts in each repetition of exercise” (2, p.69), as well as performing any weight training exercises at a relatively fast cadence, are popularly believed to be effective in enhancing strength, power and the rate of force development. This is based on the fact that muscle fiber composition provides the potential for the neuromuscular system to produce fast speeds, in particular fast twitch fibers. However, the selective recruitment of muscle fiber types is impossible (3). As such, muscle fibers are recruited by the nervous system in a logical progression according to the force requirements and not the speed of movement (3). For example, slow twitch fibers meet the demands of low muscular intensity, whereas the fast twitch fibers are eventually recruited when the other fatigue resistant fibers are exhausted. Therefore slow twitch fibers are recruited first and fast twitch last and there is no definitive proof that undertaking explosive tasks will by-pass this process (3).

See? That's the problem. You want to get to the fast twitch, but they won't kick in unless they're required AND the slow twitch are all firing. A slow movement is no problem for the endurance fibres. As long as the force is low, they won't need to recruit the big guns. And the force will be low, given the duration of the lift.

As stated selective recruitment is impossible. The fast twitch engage when the slow twitch are exhausted. Whether this is brought about by a fast or slow cadence is irrelevant.

Also, the faster the lifting tempo, the lower the tension in the muscle. If your main goal is hypertrophy, not strength, then you want the muscle to be under continuous tension. Sure, there may be a 'spike' in tension as you initially accelerate the weight up, but it is brief and potentially injurious. During the rest of the rep the muscle experiences less tension than it would do if you had lifted in a more controlled manner. Plus the slower cadence actually allows the muscle to do more work.

Lifting a heavy weight fast may help develop strength though - mainly through neural adaptations.

form must be sacrificed for intensity. I do reps of cleans at 80% perfect form.
I also seen big gains after implementing cleans and dumbell snatches. These movements make hard muscle, and develop the athlete.

Originally Posted by martin529

I, as a newbie to lifting and wanting to get massive, have come across something that many of the advanced lifters and seasoned pros don't even realize that they do anymore. I discovered that even if an immeasurable amount of weight were to be lifted that it doesn't really do nearly as much work for my body as it could if I were to flex it and focus on it as I lift it. I guess until recently I had just been going through the motions with little to show after workouts, but now I'm actually experiencing pumps by flexing!

I'm sorry, reading this I would presume you were doing some action that required flexion (curls, for example). So how on Earth were you NOT flexing during the exercise, if flexing is inherent to the action?

I think you may be confusing terminology.

You are obviously excited about this, but your reference of improvement seems to be primarily a muscle pump.

Originally Posted by Built

See? That's the problem. You want to get to the fast twitch, but they won't kick in unless they're required AND the slow twitch are all firing. A slow movement is no problem for the endurance fibres. As long as the force is low, they won't need to recruit the big guns. And the force will be low, given the duration of the lift.

Actually the speed of the muscle contraction has nothing to do with what type of fibers are recruited. It is the force requirement.

I don't think you necessarily missed this point, but I want to clarify the first statement which references slow movement and endurance fibers.

For example, a boxer's jab is designated by acceleration. They are primarily performed by slow twitch fibers. Secondarily, a hook or uppercut would be slower but depend on more "fast twitch" despite the slower speed of movement.

Originally Posted by VILBAUGH

form must be sacrificed for intensity. I do reps of cleans at 80% perfect form.
I also seen big gains after implementing cleans and dumbell snatches. These movements make hard muscle, and develop the athlete.

Nobody listen to this trash.

Originally Posted by chris mason

Well, yes and no (to the originial poster).

Yes, the biggest and strongest bodybuilders do tend to have a good mental connection with the muscles they are training, but they don't train in an overly strict or slow fashion.

I see a lot of online bodybuilding advice recommend very slow and controlled reps. I can tell you that is NOT the optimal way to train. What is optimal is to develop a connection with the muscles you are training and learning to really work them. Some "loosening" of form is necessary with barbell training due to the inherent limitations of the barbell itself.

A point should be made that the coordination of the nervous system (cns efficiency) is something like a range of a value that is part of genetic limitation. Very slow training is certainly not the best way to train. Determining a persons natural fiber type composition, fatigue response, recovery rate and so forth would help in assigning a good training protocol.

Everyone pay close attention to the last remark. Muscles produce torque through rotation, and a barbell is not a rotary device. That means at certain points in barbell exercises, for most exercises, there will be positions that create mechanical inferiority (i.e. sticking point of the curl). At weak points of certain barbell exercises, the force required to move is highest when the muscle is mechanically disadvantaged. And at strong points, the opposite is true, and no tension is present. During some exercises loosening form is necessary; and if not necessary, helpful.

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Nobody listen to this trash.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Protheus

As stated selective recruitment is impossible. The fast twitch engage when the slow twitch are exhausted. Whether this is brought about by a fast or slow cadence is irrelevant.

Also, the faster the lifting tempo, the lower the tension in the muscle. If your main goal is hypertrophy, not strength, then you want the muscle to be under continuous tension. Sure, there may be a 'spike' in tension as you initially accelerate the weight up, but it is brief and potentially injurious. During the rest of the rep the muscle experiences less tension than it would do if you had lifted in a more controlled manner. Plus the slower cadence actually allows the muscle to do more work.

Lifting a heavy weight fast may help develop strength though - mainly through neural adaptations.

I agree with you. A lot of people need to study some facts about structural integrity of the body, and the high forces that are involved with rapidly accelerating very heavy weights.

I'm not against these olympic lifts, though. I don't think they're more valuable or sport specific than any traditional lift that emphasizes slower (but not necessarily slow) movement, and more consistent tension times which don't involve dangerous acceleration and jerking actions.

Originally Posted by Built

It has to do with the type of tissue being recruited. You want to recruit the fast-twitch as much as possible, since they're the ones that make you hard and strong. The slow twitch have smaller motor units, and tend to be recruited first. Hence the problem.

Originally Posted by Built

See? That's the problem. You want to get to the fast twitch, but they won't kick in unless they're required AND the slow twitch are all firing. A slow movement is no problem for the endurance fibres. As long as the force is low, they won't need to recruit the big guns. And the force will be low, given the duration of the lift.

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Actually the speed of the muscle contraction has nothing to do with what type of fibers are recruited. It is the force requirement.

I don't think you necessarily missed this point, but I want to clarify the first statement which references slow movement and endurance fibers.

Ah, thanks for that. I'm still learning this stuff.

I understand the force requirement - with force being mass x acceleration. I also understand that fast-twitch - with their larger motor-units - are recruited some time after the slow-twitch are firing, and that with a low-force movement, very few fast twitch will need to engage. Slow twitch of course are well-designed for sustained, low-force movement. Hence my statement. Hopefully I now either sound like I DO get this, or you'll let me know where I'm off.

I find this stuff fascinating, and I appreciate your coming in to explain it.

I also grew up on Duncan Donuts, and your user name makes me homesick for Montreal... <sigh>

One thing I'm not clear on - you mentioned it's not the speed of the movement, but the force requirement. Thing is, as I indicated above, force is mass times acceleration. I realize that at a constant speed, there is no acceleration - but explosive movements are not constant speed for very long!

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

For example, a boxer's jab is designated by acceleration. They are primarily performed by slow twitch fibers. Secondarily, a hook or uppercut would be slower but depend on more "fast twitch" despite the slower speed of movement.

Makes sense - low force vs high force. Nice example.

Something I've wondered about is recruitment in fast eccentric movements. How is it that these "work" - is it just the generation of microtrauma, or is it again recruitment of fast twitch? The reason I ask is that my delts blew up when I started doing hang cleans. Not clean and press, just the cleans. My feeling is that it was the sudden tug at the insertions that occur at the bottom of the movement - at the start, and again at the finish when resetting the weight down to a hang.

Thoughts?

Built, some research here:

Damage to different motor units from active lengthening of the medial gastrocnemius muscle of the cat -- Brockett et al. 92 (3): 1104 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

I understand the force requirement - with force being mass x acceleration. I also understand that fast-twitch - with their larger motor-units - are recruited some time after the slow-twitch are firing, and that with a low-force movement, very few fast twitch will need to engage. Slow twitch of course are well-designed for sustained, low-force movement. Hence my statement. Hopefully I now either sound like I DO get this, or you'll let me know where I'm off.

One thing I'm not clear on - you mentioned it's not the speed of the movement, but the force requirement. Thing is, as I indicated above, force is mass times acceleration. I realize that at a constant speed, there is no acceleration - but explosive movements are not constant speed for very long!

I misspoke, yeah. Used the wrong word. The speed of a movement itself has little do with the fiber types that are recruited, because something "fast" like a jab calls upon more slow twitch fibers where something "slow" like a hook would call upon more fast twitch. An explosive movement, therefore is not necessarily going to use more "fast" fibers than a "slow" movement like a squat.

The point I intended to make was that slow twitch fibers can be used for high speed, and fast twitch fibers for low speeds. it's how demanding it is that will have a lot to do with recruitment.

Originally Posted by Built

See? That's the problem. You want to get to the fast twitch, but they won't kick in unless they're required AND the slow twitch are all firing. A slow movement is no problem for the endurance fibres. As long as the force is low, they won't need to recruit the big guns. And the force will be low, given the duration of the lift.

Ah, now I'm not sure if this is an issue with phrasing or what. We really need to stop confusing a "slow movement" with "endurance". Something being slow has absolutely shit to do with it not being demanding.

Motor units are recruited in order of their size, smallest to largest. If a person can do a 10 repetitions at a consistent tempo, the first few reps are going to be handled by mostly "slow twitch" motor units. The larger motor units come into play as the energy systems of the slower units can't handle the demands of the force required to maintain action. When the demands are higher than the muscle output capability, motion stops. Understanding the energy systems of different motor units is important.

The point is this: slow twitch fibers can't be bypassed by explosive training, and slow twitch fibers themselves are not responsible for SLOW MOVEMENT. I want everyone to read that last part! The electrical/chemical circuitry that activates SLOW TWITCH MOTOR UNITS DO NOT OPERATE SLOWER THAN THE ONES THAT OPERATE FAST TWITCH MOTOR UNITS! The idea that to be fast, you have to train fast in a weight room, is utter nonsense. More nonsense is the idea that slow movements don't train fast twitch motor units. Power output potential is going to increase with strength & hypertrophy. Strength and hypertrophy development are not maximized by explosive training or fast movement.

So the question for me is, why the hell would anyone use explosive weight training movements? Not to say that they won't cause strength training increases, but I'd make the claim they certainly are not the optimal choice for that. The best exhaustion factor for "fast twitch" (and the most powerful) is tension time, and the best test of hitting true fast twitch muscle fatigue would be where your movement speed reaches ZERO and motion becomes impossible. Hmm...