Slon

the more I think about it, the less I like the baloon analogy (sorry!). Just thinking by analogy (yes, it is not a proof :-) ) - if you were fat, and then lost weight, after some time your skin won't just hang stretched, but it will become tight again. Bellies of pregnant women are the good example. While some still have stretch marks, those are by no means "reserves" of skin allowing to quickly baloon again.
Also, you can re-shape your hair. Heating and/or specific chemicals break disulphide bonds and new ones are formed holding the "new" shape. However, the effect is not permanent either and hair that was re-shaped has no "memory" of it.

Just some thoughts...

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Slon

Snake_Eyes

You're confusing your terms here. When I say that fascia is not a static thing, I mean just that. It grows and changes just as much as the muscle. Why would it require any external influence such as stretching to allow the muscle to grow?

Do you have to deliberately stretch your skin when you get bigger? No, it grows with the body. Why would this be any different? The body isn't a series of isolated parts fastened together; its an integrated whole that works as a single unit.

Training God

Posted by Terry Giles
"As far as weight lifting goes; stretching is a very important element to success as a weightlifter be it a bodybuilder or a power lifter. The reason lies in the muscle fascia - the muscle fascia is the "envelope" that surrounds the muscle. By stretching the muscles - you are in fact stretching the muscle fascia - thereby allowing more "room" inside the fascia for muscular growth and development."

*** Stretching increase the ROM around a joint. Which in turn allows for a greater range of motion to be carried out by that joint through the muscle. A muscle which is "tight" decreases the ROM around that particular joint. This is because the fascia (collagenous and elastic fibres) that envelopes the muscle is tightened. Stretching this only serves to increase the ROM of a joint. Nothing more. If you were to take a look at people with poor posture you will see that this is a result of neuromuscular problems and tight and long (weak) muscles. Stretch the tight muscles and loosen them and you will see no more growth then if you didn't. Strengthen the tight muscles and they grow and in turn become tighter causing problems such as soft tissue discomfort.

ALBOB

I agree 100% BUT, I see two things wrong with that argument. #1: the skin doesn't return to it's normal size instantly, it takes time. #2: the REASON it returns to normal size is because there's nothing keeping it stretched. In our case, the case of body building, we're trying to keep the facia stretched by keeping it filled with enlarged muscle tissue. The whole concept revolves around making it EASIER for the muscle to grow by pre-stretching the facia so the muscle can grow larger and fill it up thus keeping it stretched. That same theory goes toward answering Snake Eyes' question. You don't HAVE to stretch the facia to allow the muscle to grow but, by doing so, you make it EASIER for the muscle to grow.

Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

Snake_Eyes

Again, show me an analogous process anywhere in the body and the theory might hold more weight.

Slon

why then beginners muscles are the easiest to grow (significantly, with or without stretching , massage, anything) and regularly working muscles have tendency to become tight and need to be stretched? If the fascia was never stretched before, it should be tight, but ALL beginners' gains are HUGE compared with seasoned athletes.
I think that the most proven approach for hypertrophy is the progressive load followed by special de-conditioning phase, and then back again. Stretching and massage might bring some additional blood to the muscles, but "lenghtening / reshaping the envelope"...do not know...

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Slon