Thread: How Do You Work You Upper Chest?

Both heads of pec major insert into the humerus, the clavicular head (obviously) originates from the clavicle, and the sternocostal head orginates from the sternum and intercostals (again, the clue is in the name).

They both insert at the same place, because their "job" is to flex and extend the humerus, and with other muscles rotate it. Loading the arms with weight is going to load them both, sure maybe not equally, and yes leverage and joint angle will come into it too i'll give you that.

My point is that the difference is never going to be enough to produce localized growth of one head over the other, by a general growth mechanism or one targeted on the fibres placed under the greater load when all factors are considered.

You can't target your upper chest for growth in a bodybuilding context, because targetting infers that you're ONLY hitting that muscle (or part of a muscle in this case) at the exception of the other. This isn't possible. Both will grow, and at the same rate. What your pec looks like is another matter, and largely determined by genetics. This isn't a product of training the upper pecs specifically, it's a product of training in general.

In a flat press, the elbows are basically in line with the torso at the bottom of the movement. The bar can be loaded more heavily because of this, and the limiting factor in improving the lift is often triceps strength and not chest strength (most natural lifters struggle a few inches off the chest).

In an incline press the elbows are below the torso at the bottom and, under heavy weights, most people struggle to get the bar off of their chest. It's much easier to lockout weights used in an incline press and so the triceps aren't taxed nearly as much as in a flat or decline press.

So I think there's some amount of truth to what people originally thought about incline presses, but not for the reasons to which they prescribed. Incline presses just seem like a much better overall chest builder because chest strength is going to be the limiting factor in loading. In flat presses triceps strength is more likely to limit the load.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

The only thing I will say about this topic is that I think that in an incline BP more of the load is moved by the chest and less is moved by the triceps than in a flat BP. I think this may have been where the "incline bench works the upper chest" idea started.

Let's all just give up on debating and just bomb our chests hard and heavy for a couple months and revisit this around let's say February or so and we'll compare notes. I'm giving the "no inclines" a go for at least the next 60 days and I see growth in the extended forecast...

Originally Posted by gtbmed

In a flat press, the elbows are basically in line with the torso at the bottom of the movement. The bar can be loaded more heavily because of this, and the limiting factor in improving the lift is often triceps strength and not chest strength (most natural lifters struggle a few inches off the chest).

In an incline press the elbows are below the torso at the bottom and, under heavy weights, most people struggle to get the bar off of their chest. It's much easier to lockout weights used in an incline press and so the triceps aren't taxed nearly as much as in a flat or decline press.

So I think there's some amount of truth to what people originally thought about incline presses, but not for the reasons to which they prescribed. Incline presses just seem like a much better overall chest builder because chest strength is going to be the limiting factor in loading. In flat presses triceps strength is more likely to limit the load.

An excellent point, and it's easy to see how the reasons behind it could have been misinterpreted and applied to other exercises which don't have the same overall effect.

Originally Posted by banker23

Let's all just give up on debating and just bomb our chests hard and heavy for a couple months and revisit this around let's say February or so and we'll compare notes. I'm giving the "no inclines" a go for at least the next 60 days and I see growth in the extended forecast...

For what it's worth I'm not really disagreeing with you. I actually think incline presses are likely better at building a big upper chest than flat bench presses. But I think incline presses are likely better at building the overall chest too, not just the upper part.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Both heads of pec major insert into the humerus, the clavicular head (obviously) originates from the clavicle, and the sternocostal head orginates from the sternum and intercostals (again, the clue is in the name).

They both insert at the same place, because their "job" is to flex and extend the humerus, and with other muscles rotate it. Loading the arms with weight is going to load them both, sure maybe not equally, and yes leverage and joint angle will come into it too i'll give you that.

My point is that the difference is never going to be enough to produce localized growth of one head over the other, by a general growth mechanism or one targeted on the fibres placed under the greater load when all factors are considered.

You can't target your upper chest for growth in a bodybuilding context, because targetting infers that you're ONLY hitting that muscle (or part of a muscle in this case) at the exception of the other. This isn't possible. Both will grow, and at the same rate. What your pec looks like is another matter, and largely determined by genetics. This isn't a product of training the upper pecs specifically, it's a product of training in general.

Uhh yea what he said!

to quote Dave Tate..."Why not learn how to fucking bench properly!"

Originally Posted by gtbmed

For what it's worth I'm not really disagreeing with you. I actually think incline presses are likely better at building a big upper chest than flat bench presses. But I think incline presses are likely better at building the overall chest too, not just the upper part.

That's cool bro, I guess it doesn't matter too much who's right or wrong as long as we lift heavy, eat big, and sleep soundly...if we waste time unwittingly doing unnecessary exercises every now and then, so be it (as long as it isn't wrist curls and preacher curls).

Originally Posted by Merkaba

Uhh yea what he said!

to quote Dave Tate..."Why not learn how to fucking bench properly!"

Please tell me you have downloaded the Vault ebook?

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Please tell me you have downloaded the Vault ebook?

Yep haven't really cracked it though! I think I will now!

Originally Posted by Gazhole

You can't target your upper chest for growth in a bodybuilding context, because targetting infers that you're ONLY hitting that muscle (or part of a muscle in this case) at the exception of the other. This isn't possible.

But that's exactly where I'm disagreeing with you, Gaz. I absolutely, positively, without doubt can activate the clavicular head, and only the clavicular head, with the exercise I mentioned above. Maybe it's just me and the way I'm built.

Here's a youtube video showing separate activation of each head:


If you look at the bottom picture on this page:
Cable Flyes - Pecs Workout
It shows an incline cable flye, which is close to the exercise I do. My pulleys are a bit higher, and instead of my body being between the pulleys, I'm a step or two back so it's my hands between them.

If you stand near the edge of a wall, extend your arm so your hand is about forehead height and push sideways (cross body) slightly upwards, you'll feel the top half of your pec stiffen up, while the bottom remains loose and unactivated. Keep pressing sideways but now push down a little, and you'll feel the lower part of your pec go taut. If you feel anterior deltoid involvement, your arm is a bit too high, lower it a bit and try again.

The above works for me, but like I said I can wiggle my ears, too, so it might be a genetics thing. Look at Franco Columbu's upper chest, the man had a friggin' bookshelf under his chin. Do a Google image search for him and look again at his upper chest. He had to have done something to preferentially build the clavicular head. I haven't read up on any specific bodybuilders' training methods, but if I wanted more upper chest, I'd probably do whatever he did (unless he kept secrets or used misdirection like Arnold apparently did).

Now, I'll grant that an incline barbell press probably wouldn't target just the clavicular head, unless it was at a very specific angle, the lifter held the bar a little too much toward his waist (to get the effect of the angled pressure), and used a somewhat close grip since it's only near lockout that the upper head gets isolated. But I do stand by my assertion that I can (and maybe it's just me) isolate the clavicular head.

[edit] Interesting note. I just read that the sternal head cannot hyperextend the arm, so crossing your arms might target the clavicular head, too.

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

But that's exactly where I'm disagreeing with you, Gaz. I absolutely, positively, without doubt can activate the clavicular head, and only the clavicular head, with the exercise I mentioned above. Maybe it's just me and the way I'm built.

Here's a youtube video showing separate activation of each head:


If you look at the bottom picture on this page:
Cable Flyes - Pecs Workout
It shows an incline cable flye, which is close to the exercise I do. My pulleys are a bit higher, and instead of my body being between the pulleys, I'm a step or two back so it's my hands between them.

If you stand near the edge of a wall, extend your arm so your hand is about forehead height and push sideways (cross body) slightly upwards, you'll feel the top half of your pec stiffen up, while the bottom remains loose and unactivated. Keep pressing sideways but now push down a little, and you'll feel the lower part of your pec go taut. If you feel anterior deltoid involvement, your arm is a bit too high, lower it a bit and try again.

...

My biggest beef with the first video and one of your examples is the type of resistance that is being applied to demonstrate the fibers in action, in comparison to an incline bench or decline for that matter. They are nowhere similar. One is a form of a lift, and the others are actual presses.

That being said, the video inadvertently disproves the theory that "inclined bench is good for your upper chest". However, after seeing this I would be more inclined (pun) to believe that your beloved cable crossovers would be more desirable to accomplish this. Not once does he press.

Regardless of the type of movement required to stimulate different sides of the bi-lateral, the video you posted seems to support your claims. But from an anatomical standpoint it still doesn't make a bit of sense.

Going off subject a bit, this thread gets better every hour. Idk about you guys but I am thoroughly enjoying this debate. No flame war as of yet.

Just did a little experiment here at home pushing on a wall, trying to imitate a close-grip (thumbs almost touching) incline barbell bench press. A little before lockout I had what I think was complete engagement of the clavicular head, and partial on the sternal head. It's really angle sensitive though, a little too high or too low and it's the front delts or the full pec, instead of mostly the upper pec. I'll see if I can get someone to keep a hand on my chest tomorrow at the gym to see what's engaged at what point, although I'll probably have to use the Smith machine since the incline bench doesn't have an adjustable angle. I'll probably also have to endure a few quizzical stares from people after I ask "Could you touch me while I'm lifting? Tell me if this part gets hard or stays soft?" Then again, it just might be the ultimate pickup line if I ask a girl.

I wonder though if the different emphasis could help explain why I'm so much weaker on inclines than flat or decline bench.

And yeah, like I said above I don't think you could use the clavicular heads exclusively in a press, however I do think it is possible to emphasize them over the sternal heads by doing inclines. I've also come to realize that the width of the grip used affects the upper pec involvement, too. Narrower with a good squeeze at lockout seems effective, but I'll experiment with it tomorrow to be sure.

You're weaker on incline bench press because of the muscle involvement, sure. Decline presses put your triceps in a good position to move the weight at the bottom of the movement. Flat presses demand more chest strength at the bottom. Incline presses demand the most chest strength. In general it's easier to straighten the arms than it is to move the upper arms towards the midline of the body.

It's basically a range of motion problem. Incline presses force you to work through a larger one at the bottom, where most people are often weakest.

Try inclined push-ups if you dont have a lot of weight. Start with your feet on a chair or a swiss ball. Increase the height of your feet as your strength increases until you are doing them at about a 45 degree angle (feet above your head). Go to much steeper than that and you'll use more of your anterior deltoids and over work your shoulders missing your pecs.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

It's basically a range of motion problem. Incline presses force you to work through a larger one at the bottom, where most people are often weakest.

Ok, so today at the gym I learned that the incline bench is at too steep an angle. If I wing out my elbows and guillotine the bar, I can get some upper chest activation, otherwise it's front-delt heavy for me. Couldn't get in the Smith machine, so I just grabbed a short bar with 10 kilos a side and tried various angles on a bench. Seems like a fairly shallow angle (like 15 or 20 degrees, I think) does the trick for me. But even then, it's only slightly upper pec dominant for me, except near lockout when the upper pecs get more involved.

Angle seems to be really important if you want to target upper chest with incline bench. I'll see if I can set things up better in the Smith machine on Saturday, as it's usually a slow day at the gym.

So whoever says that you can't target upper chest with incline benches is probably right more often than wrong, especially if your incline bench is at too steep an angle. It certainly seems possible, but I don't think I've seen anyone go to the trouble of determining and using the 'perfect' incline angle and narrow-ish grip width.

I've always felt more pec activation with a wider grip. I'll have to try moving my hands in on the narrow grip.

Well i would say incline pushups flies and presses but i dont know, just do different angle pushups, diamond, wide, narrow, do chest press, flies, you can do medicine balls pushups to put some balance in there, cable chest fly. etc..