lack of growth in pecs

dantheman144 · 09-25-2008, 04:32 AM

hi everyone.
this is my chest workout. i do this as part of a split routine with shoulders . i used to do tri's on this day but found they were fried so swapped in biceps (as they were fried on the pull day) and put tri's over to the back day. i do this routine like A B A . so have had max of 7 days break and min 3 days rest doing this.

flat bench 3 x 6-12
incline db presss 3 x 6-12
dips 3 x 6-12

have been doing this for 8 weeks. now the strange thing is that i have seen gains in strength and size on all other muscle groups but not so much on my chest. i log everything , reps sets etc and there has been no increase at all.
i am pushing myself hard . ive tried drop sets. i must be eating enough or i wouldnt make gains elsewhere.

i have read alot of stuff on here but i just cant get to the bottom of this problem. the only thing i can think of is that before i started taking it seriously i would just jump on my bench at home and do bench press nothing else followed by barbell curls to keep my chest and bi's going . as a result i think these muscles may be overdeveloped compared to the rest of me.

so why now that im taking it seriously is nothing happening here. incidentally my biceps havent shown much growth in this time either. is my body sort of putting all the muscle gain into the other areas as opposed to my chest and bi's to sort of make me more balanced? is this how it works? so that i should just start getting increases in theses areas when i have a more balanced physique?.

sorry about the confused and overlong question
thanks in advance

**Gazhole** · 09-25-2008, 05:42 AM

Whats the rest of your program look like?

The body doesnt work in isolated sections, it works as a whole so we need to treat it as such. There could be a problem elsewhere in your program that is inhibiting your gains.

That said, could just be a case of you needing to vary what you're doing. 8 weeks is a fairly long time to be doing the same thing, could just be that you have a adapted to it.

I would look into some form of periodization for future training programs, or this will be a frequent problem for you.

dantheman144 · 09-25-2008, 06:08 AM

cheers for taking the time to respond gaz

problem is is that with pecs and bi's i have seen no increases in this 8 week period. i realise im due a change. i was gonna redo the whole workout in couple of weeks but while im still seeing gains in other areas i thought id stick with it.

heres my workout . all sets are 3x 6-12 . usually throw in one drop set per body part
a
chest
flat bench
inc db press
dips
shoulders
shrugs
lat raises
arnies
legs
squat
leg ext
bi's straight bb curl may do 4 sets here

b
back
pull ups
close grip lat pulldown
db rows
legs
dead lifts
leg curl (hams)
calfraise on sled
tris
tricep pushdown may do 4 sets

throw in couple of ab exercises on these days and im done

as i said gains in all areas apart from those areas i used to just train on their own , pecs and bi's.

one thing i do do is that i do pretty much all to failure. but if this is a reason why would it only affect these two muscles

urbanski · 09-25-2008, 08:12 AM

if you're not eating and gaining weight, nothing will grow. post your diet.

dantheman144 · 09-25-2008, 08:14 AM

dont really track my diet but i eat plenty and take shakes and creatine. as i said gains in other areas has been good its just specifically pecs and biceps

**Gazhole** · 09-25-2008, 09:53 AM

Have you read the stickies yet? There are a couple of big problems with that program.

The main ones being far too much volume per workout, no periodization at all, and a lack of balance between the main movement types.

I dont mind giving some tips if you want, but most the info ill spurt out you can already find in the stickied topics in training.

dantheman144 · 09-25-2008, 10:24 AM

ive read alot of them but seemingly havent taken alot of it in
so i'm doing too much? each workout takes me over an hour and a half and to be fair im dead at the end.
when you say periodization do you mean i should change the rep ranges instead of just sticking to 3 sets of 6-12 i should maybe lower the weight and do 3 x 12 not to failure and then maybe 4x4 at higher weight ? is that like the p/rr /s technique?
as for lack of balance between main movements, im lost on that , i thought i had that ok

i think i need help haha

**Gazhole** · 09-25-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantheman144

a
flat bench - Compound, Upper, Push
inc db press - Compound, Upper, Push
dips - Compound, Upper, Push
shrugs - Isolation, Upper, Pull
lat raises - Isolation, Upper, Push
arnies - Compound, Upper, Push
squat - Compound, Lower, Push
leg ext - Isolation, Lower, Push
bb curl - Isolation, Upper, Pull

b
pull ups - Compound, Upper, Pull
close grip lat pulldown - Compound, Upper, Pull
db rows - Compound, Upper, Pull
dead lifts - Compound, Lower, Pull
leg curl (hams) - Isolation, Lower, Pull
calfraise on sled - Isolation, Lower, Push
tricep pushdown - Isolation, Upper, Push

THE TALLY:

Upper = 11 Movements
Lower = 5 Movements

Push = 9 Movements
Pull = 7 Movements

Basically, you need to cut down upper body work and add lower body work to balance it out.

There is also a tad too much isolation for my tastes across the board.

The push/pull ratio isnt bad, but could be perfect.

Lower body work is just as important as the upper body, if not more so. The legs are made up of the biggest muscles in the body - making these grow will make the rest of you grow!

Pushing and pulling are essential to get right, too much pushing and not enough pulling can result in muscular imbalances, posture issues, or injury. A pull is something that moves a weight towards you, a push is something that moves a weight away from you.

The compound/isolation thing is just common sense. Isolations dont use as much muscle, so arent as effective in getting results. Compounds are bigger, harder, and more effective because your body doesnt actually allow you to isolate a muscle anyway - train your body the way it WORKS, which is in terms of "i have to move this weight" rather than "i have to use my biceps to move this weight".

A workout, including warmup and warmdown, shouldnt take you more than an hour. Any more than this and you are actually doing more harm than good. Get in, do your thing, and get out so you can recover rather than forcing your body into fighting for its life.

I think youll find once you cut out some isolation movements, add in compounds, as well as adding more leg work, you wont NEED to be in there that long anyway. Work harder rather than longer.

I also wouldnt go to failure too often, its very taxing on the body and if your CNS is taking a regular beating like that, its no wonder your progress is faltering a bit.

As for periodization, there have been books and books written about it, but basically it is planned variation over the length of the program. For example:

Week 1 + 2 (Accumulation) - 3x8 @ 12RM
Week 3 + 4 (Hypertrophy 1) - 3x10 @ 10-11RM
Week 5 + 6 (Hypertrophy 2) - 4x6 @ 6-7 RM
Week 7 (Strength) - 1x10 @ 12RM, 1x6 @ 8RM, 1x4 @ PR Weight
Week 8 (Unload) - 2x10 @ 14RM
Or
Week 8 - REST WEEK

Would be a simple program working through a few different rep ranges, gradually working up to a record on a few exercises. This is planned variation, every two weeks you are changing the rep range and gradually increasing the intensity towards a specific goal:

Accumulation - increase work capacity after a rest week.
Hypertrophy - increase size of muscles to allow greater loads to be lifted.
Strength - increase strength through heavy lifting.
Unload - rest and recooperate in preparation for next training cycle.

This is one simple and linear way of periodizing your program. Cowpimp's threads explain many other ways, and this area is one of the most enjoyable areas of training for me. I like coming up with new programs and ways to improve/keep things interesting.

You can vary anything - movements, rep ranges, intensitys, volume, frequency, rest intervals, rep tempo/cadence...depending on your goal you can vary anything, just plan it out and change something towards your goal, so keeping a fresh stimulus on your muscles so you dont stagnate or get mentally bored.

Hope that helps.

dantheman144 · 09-25-2008, 11:32 AM

youre a star mate , cheers for that. think i better get planning a new program . so i need to balance it more between push / pull and upper/lower
and drop the majority of the isolation exercises. then need to put in some periodization basically vaying the reps over a 2 month period increasing the weight and decreasing the sets but trying to keep the volume the same? so this is the same principles a p/rr/s am i right?

am i getting there?

can i just ask one more thing when you put @14 RM what does that mean is it like a percentage of your 1 rep max or something

**Gazhole** · 09-25-2008, 12:04 PM

14RM is your "14 Rep Max" ie - the weight at which you can perform 14 controlled repetitions.

Periodization is equal parts art and science i think, mate, lol. Just give it a whirl and see what you come up with. Post it here and somebody will critique it, probably me :P.

**Merkaba** · 09-25-2008, 12:24 PM

I second what gaz is saying. You are taxing your central nervous system with workouts like that! Geez thats alot of volume. I would probably cut both of those volumes in half. And just because you eat and take some shakes doesnt mean anything. You need to know how many calories and your macros youre taking in if you really want to get the most bang for your buck. If you keep having the problem everyone is going to ask you about it anyways.

Plus as far as I'm concerned, ya gotta get higher with the weights and thus, lower with the reps to build size. But first I would take a week or so off though.

SnowManSnow · 09-25-2008, 01:42 PM

I didn't read the entire post cause im in a hurry and someone may have said this but...

I think you're over training.

B.

dantheman144 · 09-25-2008, 02:44 PM

i thought id cut it down
you should have seen what i was doing before lol

dantheman144 · 09-27-2008, 05:18 AM

gaz you say balance upper and lower exercises but there is a limit to what you can do on legs compared to upper body

im changing my routine and for all upper body exercises its easy to change the exercises but im struggling to replace stuff in for hams and quads

for quads was gonna do hack squats and extensions
and hams RDL'S and leg curls

what else can you do? i was gonna up the sets so there was more volume on legs but not sure what else to do

dantheman144 · 09-27-2008, 06:26 AM

also.....

hows this for periodization. so on a 2 day split i should be hitting the same exercises 3 times in a 2 week period

weeks 1 and 2 2x 10 -12
weeks 3 and 4 3x 8-10 final set to failure or drop set to failure
weeks 5 and 6 3x6-8 final set to failure or drop set to failure
weeks 6 and 7 4x4-6
week 8 4x4-6 and one go on 5 x 1-4 to see what my 1RP is and to set a goal for myself

**Gazhole** · 09-27-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantheman144

gaz you say balance upper and lower exercises but there is a limit to what you can do on legs compared to upper body

im changing my routine and for all upper body exercises its easy to change the exercises but im struggling to replace stuff in for hams and quads

for quads was gonna do hack squats and extensions
and hams RDL'S and leg curls

what else can you do? i was gonna up the sets so there was more volume on legs but not sure what else to do

Some leg movements:

Squat
Split Squat
Lunges
Step Ups
Leg Press

Deadlifts
Single Leg Deadlifts
Good Mornings
Hyperextensions
Glute Ham Raises

Shouldnt be a limit, if anything your legs can handle more punishment that the upper body.

Since you should really only be aiming for 4-6 Movements per session, that should be more than enough leg movements

**Gazhole** · 09-27-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantheman144

also.....

hows this for periodization. so on a 2 day split i should be hitting the same exercises 3 times in a 2 week period

weeks 1 and 2 2x 10 -12
weeks 3 and 4 3x 8-10 final set to failure or drop set to failure
weeks 5 and 6 3x6-8 final set to failure or drop set to failure
weeks 6 and 7 4x4-6
week 8 4x4-6 and one go on 5 x 1-4 to see what my 1RP is and to set a goal for myself

I would spread them out a bit more if youre going for linear periodization. 3x8 and 3x10 are not drastically different.

Weeks 1+2 - 2x14 @ 14-15rm
Weeks 3+4 - 3x10 @ 10-11rm
Weeks 5+6 - 4x6 @ 6-7rm
Week 7 - 2x10 @ 14rm De-load
Week 8 - 3x3 @ 4-5rm PR Week

Would probably hit the mark a little better. If the rep ranges arent different, you still run the risk of overtraining as if you WERE doing to same rep ranges. Keeping your set/rep sheme as different as possible will make sure you keep it fresh.

dantheman144 · 09-27-2008, 01:57 PM

sorry to be a pain
hows this for non linear
weeks 1 /2 3x10 -12 @14rm
weeks 3/4 3x6-8 @8 rm
weeks 5/6 3x10-12 @12 rm
weeks 7 / 8 4x4-6 @6rm
at end of week go for 4x1-4 and get 1 rm or personal best?

tomuchgear · 09-27-2008, 02:18 PM

try decline for bench any way more stress on the chest. less on the rotator cuff.

dantheman144 · 09-27-2008, 02:25 PM

cheers mate
building that into my next chest workout

how this look
flat db press
smith machine decline press
incline flys

tomuchgear · 09-30-2008, 07:07 AM

i would axe the flys. have you thought about dips?

dantheman144 · 09-30-2008, 08:45 AM

i was doing dips originally , so thought i would pull that out and add in flys on this next 8 week cycle

had something strange happen yesterday

i was training to failure before
last workout was like this
bench press 80 kg x3 reps were 8 then 6 then 6

so changed the reps to go for power and a change as had been recommended on here

so upped it to 90 kg and was gonna do 4 sets hopefully in 4- 6 rep range
i did 4,4,4 the last rep on that was to failure i wouldnt have been able to do 4 again so i dropped the weight to 80kg the original weight i was stuck on.

i thought id be able to do 5 prob as used alot of effort on the higher weight

i did 8 reps so on my final set after working at a higher weight i lift the same as my FIRST set on that lower weight.

i dont understand that at all

09-25-2008, 04:32 AM	#1
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	lack of growth in pecs hi everyone. this is my chest workout. i do this as part of a split routine with shoulders . i used to do tri's on this day but found they were fried so swapped in biceps (as they were fried on the pull day) and put tri's over to the back day. i do this routine like A B A . so have had max of 7 days break and min 3 days rest doing this. flat bench 3 x 6-12 incline db presss 3 x 6-12 dips 3 x 6-12 have been doing this for 8 weeks. now the strange thing is that i have seen gains in strength and size on all other muscle groups but not so much on my chest. i log everything , reps sets etc and there has been no increase at all. i am pushing myself hard . ive tried drop sets. i must be eating enough or i wouldnt make gains elsewhere. i have read alot of stuff on here but i just cant get to the bottom of this problem. the only thing i can think of is that before i started taking it seriously i would just jump on my bench at home and do bench press nothing else followed by barbell curls to keep my chest and bi's going . as a result i think these muscles may be overdeveloped compared to the rest of me. so why now that im taking it seriously is nothing happening here. incidentally my biceps havent shown much growth in this time either. is my body sort of putting all the muscle gain into the other areas as opposed to my chest and bi's to sort of make me more balanced? is this how it works? so that i should just start getting increases in theses areas when i have a more balanced physique?. sorry about the confused and overlong question thanks in advance

09-25-2008, 05:42 AM	#2
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 8,002 Photos: 19	Whats the rest of your program look like? The body doesnt work in isolated sections, it works as a whole so we need to treat it as such. There could be a problem elsewhere in your program that is inhibiting your gains. That said, could just be a case of you needing to vary what you're doing. 8 weeks is a fairly long time to be doing the same thing, could just be that you have a adapted to it. I would look into some form of periodization for future training programs, or this will be a frequent problem for you. http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 13/11/09 ***READ THIS FOR TRAINING INFO:*** http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/99879-articles-ironmagazineforums-members.html If you want to win the fight, say "I BELIEVE".

09-25-2008, 09:53 AM	#6
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 8,002 Photos: 19	Have you read the stickies yet? There are a couple of big problems with that program. The main ones being far too much volume per workout, no periodization at all, and a lack of balance between the main movement types. I dont mind giving some tips if you want, but most the info ill spurt out you can already find in the stickied topics in training. http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 13/11/09 ***READ THIS FOR TRAINING INFO:*** http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/99879-articles-ironmagazineforums-members.html If you want to win the fight, say "I BELIEVE".

09-25-2008, 12:04 PM	#10
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 8,002 Photos: 19	14RM is your "14 Rep Max" ie - the weight at which you can perform 14 controlled repetitions. Periodization is equal parts art and science i think, mate, lol. Just give it a whirl and see what you come up with. Post it here and somebody will critique it, probably me :P. http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 13/11/09 ***READ THIS FOR TRAINING INFO:*** http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/99879-articles-ironmagazineforums-members.html If you want to win the fight, say "I BELIEVE".

09-25-2008, 12:24 PM	#11
Merkaba "King of Cheat Meals" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: sc Posts: 1,625	I second what gaz is saying. You are taxing your central nervous system with workouts like that! Geez thats alot of volume. I would probably cut both of those volumes in half. And just because you eat and take some shakes doesnt mean anything. You need to know how many calories and your macros youre taking in if you really want to get the most bang for your buck. If you keep having the problem everyone is going to ask you about it anyways. Plus as far as I'm concerned, ya gotta get higher with the weights and thus, lower with the reps to build size. But first I would take a week or so off though. Ban 2 1/2 's !!!!!! -------------------------------------------- Some Pics. All Natural

09-25-2008, 06:08 AM	#3
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	cheers for taking the time to respond gaz problem is is that with pecs and bi's i have seen no increases in this 8 week period. i realise im due a change. i was gonna redo the whole workout in couple of weeks but while im still seeing gains in other areas i thought id stick with it. heres my workout . all sets are 3x 6-12 . usually throw in one drop set per body part a chest flat bench inc db press dips shoulders shrugs lat raises arnies legs squat leg ext bi's straight bb curl may do 4 sets here b back pull ups close grip lat pulldown db rows legs dead lifts leg curl (hams) calfraise on sled tris tricep pushdown may do 4 sets throw in couple of ab exercises on these days and im done as i said gains in all areas apart from those areas i used to just train on their own , pecs and bi's. one thing i do do is that i do pretty much all to failure. but if this is a reason why would it only affect these two muscles

09-25-2008, 08:12 AM	#4
urbanski Member Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 237	if you're not eating and gaining weight, nothing will grow. post your diet.

09-25-2008, 08:14 AM	#5
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	dont really track my diet but i eat plenty and take shakes and creatine. as i said gains in other areas has been good its just specifically pecs and biceps

09-25-2008, 10:24 AM	#7
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	ive read alot of them but seemingly havent taken alot of it in so i'm doing too much? each workout takes me over an hour and a half and to be fair im dead at the end. when you say periodization do you mean i should change the rep ranges instead of just sticking to 3 sets of 6-12 i should maybe lower the weight and do 3 x 12 not to failure and then maybe 4x4 at higher weight ? is that like the p/rr /s technique? as for lack of balance between main movements, im lost on that , i thought i had that ok i think i need help haha

09-25-2008, 11:32 AM	#9
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	youre a star mate , cheers for that. think i better get planning a new program . so i need to balance it more between push / pull and upper/lower and drop the majority of the isolation exercises. then need to put in some periodization basically vaying the reps over a 2 month period increasing the weight and decreasing the sets but trying to keep the volume the same? so this is the same principles a p/rr/s am i right? am i getting there? can i just ask one more thing when you put @14 RM what does that mean is it like a percentage of your 1 rep max or something

09-25-2008, 01:42 PM	#12
SnowManSnow Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 115	I didn't read the entire post cause im in a hurry and someone may have said this but... I think you're over training. B.

09-25-2008, 02:44 PM	#13
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	i thought id cut it down you should have seen what i was doing before lol

09-27-2008, 05:18 AM	#14
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	gaz you say balance upper and lower exercises but there is a limit to what you can do on legs compared to upper body im changing my routine and for all upper body exercises its easy to change the exercises but im struggling to replace stuff in for hams and quads for quads was gonna do hack squats and extensions and hams RDL'S and leg curls what else can you do? i was gonna up the sets so there was more volume on legs but not sure what else to do

09-27-2008, 06:26 AM	#15
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	also..... hows this for periodization. so on a 2 day split i should be hitting the same exercises 3 times in a 2 week period weeks 1 and 2 2x 10 -12 weeks 3 and 4 3x 8-10 final set to failure or drop set to failure weeks 5 and 6 3x6-8 final set to failure or drop set to failure weeks 6 and 7 4x4-6 week 8 4x4-6 and one go on 5 x 1-4 to see what my 1RP is and to set a goal for myself

09-27-2008, 01:57 PM	#18
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	sorry to be a pain hows this for non linear weeks 1 /2 3x10 -12 @14rm weeks 3/4 3x6-8 @8 rm weeks 5/6 3x10-12 @12 rm weeks 7 / 8 4x4-6 @6rm at end of week go for 4x1-4 and get 1 rm or personal best?

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09-27-2008, 02:18 PM	#19
tomuchgear is gettin divorcd n drnkn Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ohio Posts: 1,682 Photos: 5	try decline for bench any way more stress on the chest. less on the rotator cuff. i bet in the world you live in every one is a pony, eats rainbows, and craps butterflys. there is no damn justice in the world.

09-27-2008, 02:25 PM	#20
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	cheers mate building that into my next chest workout how this look flat db press smith machine decline press incline flys

09-30-2008, 07:07 AM	#21
tomuchgear is gettin divorcd n drnkn Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ohio Posts: 1,682 Photos: 5	i would axe the flys. have you thought about dips? i bet in the world you live in every one is a pony, eats rainbows, and craps butterflys. there is no damn justice in the world.

09-30-2008, 08:45 AM	#22
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	i was doing dips originally , so thought i would pull that out and add in flys on this next 8 week cycle had something strange happen yesterday i was training to failure before last workout was like this bench press 80 kg x3 reps were 8 then 6 then 6 so changed the reps to go for power and a change as had been recommended on here so upped it to 90 kg and was gonna do 4 sets hopefully in 4- 6 rep range i did 4,4,4 the last rep on that was to failure i wouldnt have been able to do 4 again so i dropped the weight to 80kg the original weight i was stuck on. i thought id be able to do 5 prob as used alot of effort on the higher weight i did 8 reps so on my final set after working at a higher weight i lift the same as my FIRST set on that lower weight. i dont understand that at all