training to failure / periodization

dantheman144 · 09-26-2008, 01:42 AM

by reading the stickies , reading the threads and getting some great advice from people on here (cheers gaz) it would appear that the accepted method is NOT to train to failure. i was just wondering what in fact this is and specifically how it relates to what i do in the gym.

i also need to redo my routine so need a bit of knowledge on how to optimise my training techniques would be great.

here is an example of some exercises ive been doing lately

bench press
i do 3 sets of the same weight reps of 8/7/6 . these reps are going down cos i cant physically do another one. i train on my own so dont have a spotter. sometimes after this ill drop the weight maybe 20% and bang out some more reps till i cant do another.

is this training to failure? im thinking it is.

so instead should i maybe start off with a lower weight and do 3x 8?
im just struggling to get my head round this as it seems like it will be too easy and i wont be pushing myself.

bb curl
again 3 sets . last time i did this was strange. most of my muscles behave similarly to those used in bench press. ie the amount i can move to failure slowly diminshes. however some exercises like the bb curl and also the pull up the first set is much more than the rest.
for example last time
bb curl the reps were 11/6 /4
pullup 12/8/7

is this because im training to failure and will this hamper my results? sorry if this sounds stupid but im trying to get it out of my head that you have to train to failure. i thought that was always the way to do it.

so with the bb curl and pull up should i do a 3 x 8 with the current weight im using . the first set of 8 will be easy as there will be more in the tank. is that right for hypertrophy?

periodization
rather than just bangng out 3x8's should i adjust the weight and do 2x 12's
4x6's and 5 x 5 's say in 2 weeks cycles?

also if im doing a 5x5 again isnt the first set gonna be much too easy ?

soory about the long convoluted its just im new lol

**Built** · 09-26-2008, 02:12 AM

You're asking good questions - which is WAY better than just assuming bro-school is teh WAY!

This article might help you with rep ranges: 3 Ways to get Big - Christian Thibaudeau
And this is a good primer on periodization schemes: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...-mcdonald.html (Periodization by Lyle McDonald)

**Merkaba** · 09-26-2008, 02:19 AM

Whatever, how much can you bench????

**Built** · 09-26-2008, 02:19 AM

**Gazhole** · 09-26-2008, 02:46 AM

Training to failure is simply when you cant complete the set because you fail to complete one of the reps. You know the feeling, youre pushing (or pulling) as hard as you can, but the weight isnt moving. Your muscles are burning like hell, so you either use body english or just drop the weight altogether.

Failure is the inability to complete a rep due to extreme muscular fatigue.

AVOID AVOID AVOID!

dantheman144 · 09-26-2008, 03:52 AM

so if i avoid failure and say do 3x8 that first set is gonna be too easy surely

Witchblade · 09-26-2008, 03:58 AM

Failure has its place in a well thought out program.

**Gazhole** · 09-26-2008, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantheman144

so if i avoid failure and say do 3x8 that first set is gonna be too easy surely

Well, it'll be easiER than the other two sets. You should be able to just about finish the last rep on the last set without compromising form.

If the weight you're using isnt a challenge on that third set, sounds like you need to increase the weight. Its a balancing act, but one that you get used to the more you train.

gtbmed · 09-26-2008, 09:22 AM

Just wondering, but what is the reasoning behind avoiding training to failure?

dantheman144 · 09-26-2008, 09:52 AM

well i obviously dont know much or i wouldnt have started the thread . but having read up about it it seems( and i may be wrong ) that by training to failure everytime you are knackering your CNS. if you were to do one set past failure it could be dangerous (obviously , because you cant do it) so when you train to failure your CNS cuts in to stop you lifting more. so you could in fact maybe lift more.

prob completely wrong so ignore that.

im going

sorry

**Built** · 09-26-2008, 11:27 AM

That's my understanding of it too, dantheman. I think of it like a circuit breaker - it fails to protect the component. Hit failure occasionally, no problem, probably even helpful. Do it deliberately every time, you'll teach your CNS to cut out early.

Double D · 09-26-2008, 09:43 PM

Don't over think it, keep things simple.

rahaas · 09-26-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote from Bodybuilding: A scientific approach by Frederick Hatfield PhD.
"If you have trained for years with heavy weights (without exceeding your capabilities but pushing them to the maximum), your Golgi tendon organs will not be stimulated to forward inhibitory messages to the brain. Success will beget success, and failure will beget failure."

and some stuff that contradict it: Golgi Tendon Organs

danzik17 · 09-26-2008, 11:07 PM

I would agree for the most part, but I can't help thinking of Trevor Smith. This idea doesn't seem to apply to him, maybe he was on to something with his type of training.

**Built** · 09-26-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

I can't help thinking of Trevor Smith. Maybe he was on something that made ANYTHING work.

Corrected.

danzik17 · 09-26-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Corrected.

But if it works, then all of the bad rap that training to and beyond failure gets is unwarranted if done correctly.

I only say this because that's how I originally trained. The reason I made no progress at the time was because I had a horrible routine set up and my diet wasn't there, but that is how I was taught to train.

It's still the way I love to train the most too - I think goob is in the same boat as I am. High intensity, short RI, drop dead workouts. I just wish I had a good spotter so I could lift the way I really wanted to, but unfortunately no one I know in this area lifts and 98% of the people at the gym are too dumb to trust when it comes to spotting.

*Edit: Just noticed that your edit meant something completely different than I read it as the first time

*

**Built** · 09-27-2008, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

But if it works, then all of the bad rap that training to and beyond failure gets is unwarranted if done correctly.

I only say this because that's how I originally trained. The reason I made no progress at the time was because I had a horrible routine set up and my diet wasn't there, but that is how I was taught to train.

It's still the way I love to train the most too - I think goob is in the same boat as I am. High intensity, short RI, drop dead workouts. I just wish I had a good spotter so I could lift the way I really wanted to, but unfortunately no one I know in this area lifts and 98% of the people at the gym are too dumb to trust when it comes to spotting.

*Edit: Just noticed that your edit meant something completely different than I read it as the first time

*

Yes it did.

EVERYTHING works on juice.

**Gazhole** · 09-27-2008, 03:33 AM

"Everything works, nothing works forever."
-Louie Simmons.

***

Pretty apt when it comes to failure training, it might work well for a short while but before long the immense stress of that much effort will burn you out.

**Gazhole** · 09-27-2008, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

It's still the way I love to train the most too - I think goob is in the same boat as I am. High intensity, short RI, drop dead workouts. I just wish I had a good spotter so I could lift the way I really wanted to, but unfortunately no one I know in this area lifts and 98% of the people at the gym are too dumb to trust when it comes to spotting.

If i ever get around to my holiday/tour, i shall look you up

Thats the way i enjoy training also. Not neccessarily heavy, but tough, imaginative, and somewhat insane workouts at times.

09-26-2008, 01:42 AM	#1
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	training to failure / periodization by reading the stickies , reading the threads and getting some great advice from people on here (cheers gaz) it would appear that the accepted method is NOT to train to failure. i was just wondering what in fact this is and specifically how it relates to what i do in the gym. i also need to redo my routine so need a bit of knowledge on how to optimise my training techniques would be great. here is an example of some exercises ive been doing lately bench press i do 3 sets of the same weight reps of 8/7/6 . these reps are going down cos i cant physically do another one. i train on my own so dont have a spotter. sometimes after this ill drop the weight maybe 20% and bang out some more reps till i cant do another. is this training to failure? im thinking it is. so instead should i maybe start off with a lower weight and do 3x 8? im just struggling to get my head round this as it seems like it will be too easy and i wont be pushing myself. bb curl again 3 sets . last time i did this was strange. most of my muscles behave similarly to those used in bench press. ie the amount i can move to failure slowly diminshes. however some exercises like the bb curl and also the pull up the first set is much more than the rest. for example last time bb curl the reps were 11/6 /4 pullup 12/8/7 is this because im training to failure and will this hamper my results? sorry if this sounds stupid but im trying to get it out of my head that you have to train to failure. i thought that was always the way to do it. so with the bb curl and pull up should i do a 3 x 8 with the current weight im using . the first set of 8 will be easy as there will be more in the tank. is that right for hypertrophy? periodization rather than just bangng out 3x8's should i adjust the weight and do 2x 12's 4x6's and 5 x 5 's say in 2 weeks cycles? also if im doing a 5x5 again isnt the first set gonna be much too easy ? soory about the long convoluted its just im new lol

09-26-2008, 02:12 AM	#2
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,121	You're asking good questions - which is WAY better than just assuming bro-school is teh WAY! This article might help you with rep ranges: 3 Ways to get Big - Christian Thibaudeau And this is a good primer on periodization schemes: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...-mcdonald.html (Periodization by Lyle McDonald) Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

09-26-2008, 02:19 AM	#3
Merkaba "King of Cheat Meals" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: sc Posts: 1,625	Whatever, how much can you bench???? Ban 2 1/2 's !!!!!! -------------------------------------------- Some Pics. All Natural

09-26-2008, 02:19 AM	#4
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,121	Lol! Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

09-26-2008, 02:46 AM	#5
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 8,003 Photos: 19	Training to failure is simply when you cant complete the set because you fail to complete one of the reps. You know the feeling, youre pushing (or pulling) as hard as you can, but the weight isnt moving. Your muscles are burning like hell, so you either use body english or just drop the weight altogether. Failure is the inability to complete a rep due to extreme muscular fatigue. AVOID AVOID AVOID! http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 13/11/09 ***READ THIS FOR TRAINING INFO:*** http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/99879-articles-ironmagazineforums-members.html If you want to win the fight, say "I BELIEVE".

09-26-2008, 03:52 AM	#6
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	so if i avoid failure and say do 3x8 that first set is gonna be too easy surely

09-26-2008, 03:58 AM	#7
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 4,474 Photos: 2	Failure has its place in a well thought out program. My Linkdump [LSFW] IM Official FAQ [WORK IN PROGRESS]

09-26-2008, 09:22 AM	#9
gtbmed Greg Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Atlanta Posts: 372	Just wondering, but what is the reasoning behind avoiding training to failure?

09-26-2008, 09:52 AM	#10
dantheman144 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uk Posts: 63	well i obviously dont know much or i wouldnt have started the thread . but having read up about it it seems( and i may be wrong ) that by training to failure everytime you are knackering your CNS. if you were to do one set past failure it could be dangerous (obviously , because you cant do it) so when you train to failure your CNS cuts in to stop you lifting more. so you could in fact maybe lift more. prob completely wrong so ignore that. im going sorry

09-26-2008, 11:27 AM	#11
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,121	That's my understanding of it too, dantheman. I think of it like a circuit breaker - it fails to protect the component. Hit failure occasionally, no problem, probably even helpful. Do it deliberately every time, you'll teach your CNS to cut out early. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

09-26-2008, 09:43 PM	#12
Double D Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,460 Photos: 1	Don't over think it, keep things simple.

09-26-2008, 10:33 PM	#13
rahaas Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Delaware Posts: 881 Photos: 1	Quote from Bodybuilding: A scientific approach by Frederick Hatfield PhD. "If you have trained for years with heavy weights (without exceeding your capabilities but pushing them to the maximum), your Golgi tendon organs will not be stimulated to forward inhibitory messages to the brain. Success will beget success, and failure will beget failure." and some stuff that contradict it: Golgi Tendon Organs Last edited by rahaas : 09-26-2008 at 10:53 PM.

09-26-2008, 11:07 PM	#14
danzik17 Gender: MALE Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 3,075	I would agree for the most part, but I can't help thinking of Trevor Smith. This idea doesn't seem to apply to him, maybe he was on to something with his type of training. Ron Paul 2012 Journal: danzik17's Log - 4-6 Week Strength/Bulk Journal: Sub 10% by April <old>

09-27-2008, 03:33 AM	#18
Gazhole iwillmakeyousmelltheglove Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 8,003 Photos: 19	"Everything works, nothing works forever." -Louie Simmons. * Pretty apt when it comes to failure training, it might work well for a short while but before long the immense stress of that much effort will burn you out. http://sdatrainingprograms.blogspot.com - Updated 13/11/09 *READ THIS FOR TRAINING INFO:*** http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/99879-articles-ironmagazineforums-members.html If you want to win the fight, say "I BELIEVE".

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode