Thread: Split, or FBW?

Push = 6
Pull = 3
Upper = 10
Lower = 2

Not counting isolations, just in terms of balance this is a mess.

No posterior chain work whatsoever?

Five times the upper body work than lower?

This doesn't need tweaking, this needs scrapping.

Set up a "theme" for each day, and then put in movements that fit into that day. It's much easier to keep track that way.

E.g.

Upper Push - Bench, One Arm Overhead Press, Tricep Extensions

Upper Pull - One Arm Rows, Pullups, Curls

Lower Push - Squats, Lunges, Calve Raises

Lower Pull - Deadlifts, One Leg RDLs, Hyperextensions

Easy. Throw some periodization in there and you have a simple program.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Push = 6
Pull = 3
Upper = 10
Lower = 2

Not counting isolations, just in terms of balance this is a mess.

No posterior chain work whatsoever?

Five times the upper body work than lower?

This doesn't need tweaking, this needs scrapping.

Set up a "theme" for each day, and then put in movements that fit into that day. It's much easier to keep track that way.

E.g.





Easy. Throw some periodization in there and you have a simple program.

I'm not sure what all this means...But, alright. Not good on all these terms i guess...

Originally Posted by someguy1984

I'm not sure what all this means...But, alright. Not good on all these terms i guess...

Muscles work against eachother in pairs, as one pushes the other pulls against it in the opposite direction, otherwise neither would move. Its like a pulley system.

To use a simple example - bicep/tricep. As the bicep contracts it bends the elbow. What do you think would happen if there was no opposing force (tricep) to stop that movement? It would keep going! Same in the other direction, without a bicep your tricep would extend your arm untill the elbow bent the other way.

To avoid imbalances between your muscles, you need to train with a balance between different movement patterns.

I.e.

Bench is a Push because you push the weight away from you.

Rows are a Pull because you pull the weight towards you.


In that example, if you bench at the exclusion of rowing, the pushing muscles (chest, triceps, shoulders) are going to become stronger than the pulling muscles (back, traps, biceps).

If this happens, the pulling muscles are too weak to counteract the force exerted by the pushing muscles, which will result in either postural problems (shoulders being pulled forward and inwards by a chest that is too strong for the back to counteract), or simply an injury.

The same goes for every minor and major muscle group in the body. Posterior chain means the glutes, hams etc etc. Those are the muscles that work against the quads for example.

Hence a balance is important.

Periodization is how your program is going to change over time to:

1 - Achieve your goals.
2 - Keep things from becoming physically and mentally stagnant.

Savvy?

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Muscles work against eachother in pairs, as one pushes the other pulls against it in the opposite direction, otherwise neither would move. Its like a pulley system.

To use a simple example - bicep/tricep. As the bicep contracts it bends the elbow. What do you think would happen if there was no opposing force (tricep) to stop that movement? It would keep going! Same in the other direction, without a bicep your tricep would extend your arm untill the elbow bent the other way.

To avoid imbalances between your muscles, you need to train with a balance between different movement patterns.

I.e.

Bench is a Push because you push the weight away from you.

Rows are a Pull because you pull the weight towards you.


In that example, if you bench at the exclusion of rowing, the pushing muscles (chest, triceps, shoulders) are going to become stronger than the pulling muscles (back, traps, biceps).

If this happens, the pulling muscles are too weak to counteract the force exerted by the pushing muscles, which will result in either postural problems (shoulders being pulled forward and inwards by a chest that is too strong for the back to counteract), or simply an injury.

The same goes for every minor and major muscle group in the body. Posterior chain means the glutes, hams etc etc. Those are the muscles that work against the quads for example.

Hence a balance is important.

Periodization is how your program is going to change over time to:

1 - Achieve your goals.
2 - Keep things from becoming physically and mentally stagnant.

Savvy?

Well, i understand all that, but how are you suggestion i lay out my routine?

Monday:
Squats
Bench
Overhead press
Tricep

Wednesday:
BB row
Pull ups
Pulling leg machine
Traps

Friday:
Squats
Incline dumbbell
Dips
Biceps

Something like this? Not sure if I'm getting the point...

The point is that in this program (the first one you posted):

Originally Posted by someguy1984

Monday:
Bench Press
Squats
Pull ups
Triceps

Wednesday:
Overhead press
Push ups, 3 sets until failure
BB Rows
Traps

Friday:
Squats
Incline db Bench
Chin ups
Biceps

There are way more pushing movements than there are pulling movements:
(6 Push = Bench, Squats, Overhead Press, Pushups, Squats, Incline Bench)
(3 Pull = Pullups, Rows, Chinups)

And way more upper body than lower body:
(7 Upper Body = Bench, Overhead Press, Pushups, Incline Bench, Pullups, Rows, Chinups)
(2 Lower Body = Squats, Squats)

Not counting isolation work. This isn't balanced at all, and needs to be fixed. For example = 6 Push, 6 Pull. 6 Upper Body, 6 Lower Body.

Get it?

Originally Posted by Gazhole

The point is that in this program (the first one you posted):



There are way more pushing movements than there are pulling movements:
(6 Push = Bench, Squats, Overhead Press, Pushups, Squats, Incline Bench)
(3 Pull = Pullups, Rows, Chinups)

And way more upper body than lower body:
(7 Upper Body = Bench, Overhead Press, Pushups, Incline Bench, Pullups, Rows, Chinups)
(2 Lower Body = Squats, Squats)

Not counting isolation work. This isn't balanced at all, and needs to be fixed. For example = 6 Push, 6 Pull. 6 Upper Body, 6 Lower Body.

Get it?

Yeah, i get it, but how are you going to get 6 pulling movements? Especially for upper body? The big movements are pushing...

I mean, if you equaled it out, it seems like you would be doing a lot of unnecessary work and isolation exercises. I like to focus on bigger compound movements and not stupid leg machines, or lat pull downs, or side lateral raises, face pulls, etc...All these things don't really seem to do anything, because their easy. When i squat or bench twice a week, i can feel a burn the next day.

I wish i could deadlift or do some type of hyperextension, but i can't. I got into a car accident when i was younger and it still hurts to bend that way...

What I'm trying to do is make a FBW routine that has equal pulling to pushing...I'll look online somewhere for something balanced. Because i don't think I'll be able to properly make one.

This is the first I've ever heard to focus on pushing/pulling.

Fullbody seems like it would be the way to go for you, then. That way you would only really need one or two exercises per movement pattern.

What part of deadlifts hurts? Do you get problems with other movements like good mornings, or romanian/straight leg deads?

Im guessing its a lower back problem rather than knees or anything?

Do a search on Gazhole's post. He has numerous balanced routines posted recently that you can get ideas from.

^ This is true. We'll try and find some way of keeping that balance while working around your injury also

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Fullbody seems like it would be the way to go for you, then. That way you would only really need one or two exercises per movement pattern.

What part of deadlifts hurts? Do you get problems with other movements like good mornings, or romanian/straight leg deads?

Im guessing its a lower back problem rather than knees or anything?

Yeah, it's all lower back. Sometimes bb rows can even hurt. But, if i get my form just right it won't bother me too much.

Where can i do a search for your posts and find these routines?

(I'm still relatively new)

What do you think about this?


Monday Push/Pull:

Bench Press x 3
Overhead Press x 3
BB row x3
Upright row x 3
Overhead Extensions x 2
Push downs x 2

Wednesday Pull/Push:

One Arm DB Rows x 3
Chin ups x 3
incline Press x 3
Dips x 3
Concentration Curls x 2
Preacher Curls x 2

Friday Legs:

Squats x 3
Push ups x 3
Leg Press x 3
Leg Curls x 3
Squat lunge x 3
Calf Raises x 3

I just put this together and it looks like everything is equal...The only reason why i have push ups for leg day, is because it's only 3 sets until failure and i don't think i'll be over doing it...I'm only doing it that day, because i couldn't really fit it in on another day and i need to continue to work on those every now and then.

I've done splits for the last 30 or so years and I recommend it--as long as your split is logical.

It allows greater rest/recovery time and allows you to train harder. My orientation is strength training and body builders might have a different opinion.

I like a split like this:

Monday: Upper body, heavy
Tuesday: Lower body, heavy

Wednesday: Off

Thursday: Upper body, light
Friday: Lower body, light

Saturday: rest
Sunday: rest

By doing this you will have 3/4 days rest between each muscle group and you will have a two day rest (for total body recovery). It will allow you to train with more intensity and it is (generally) a more sustainable routine.

The only issue is where do you put your deadlifts? In upper body, or lower?

Originally Posted by someguy1984

What do you think about this?


Monday Push/Pull:

Bench Press x 3
Overhead Press x 3
BB row x3
Upright row x 3
Overhead Extensions x 2
Push downs x 2

Wednesday Pull/Push:

One Arm DB Rows x 3
Chin ups x 3
incline Press x 3
Dips x 3
Concentration Curls x 2
Preacher Curls x 2

Friday Legs:

Squats x 3
Push ups x 3
Leg Press x 3
Leg Curls x 3
Squat lunge x 3
Calf Raises x 3

I just put this together and it looks like everything is equal...The only reason why i have push ups for leg day, is because it's only 3 sets until failure and i don't think i'll be over doing it...I'm only doing it that day, because i couldn't really fit it in on another day and i need to continue to work on those every now and then.

My advice would be to put the pushups instead of the overhead extensions, and replace that slot on leg day with Leg Curls with a stability ball.

Basically, you lie on your back with your feet on a stability ball and curl it into you by rolling it across to floor to you.

Its a good exercise and is pretty low impact. Plus in terms of your program you have a little more posterior chain work.

Originally Posted by Packard

I've done splits for the last 30 or so years and I recommend it--as long as your split is logical.

It allows greater rest/recovery time and allows you to train harder. My orientation is strength training and body builders might have a different opinion.

I like a split like this:

Monday: Upper body, heavy
Tuesday: Lower body, heavy

Wednesday: Off

Thursday: Upper body, light
Friday: Lower body, light

Saturday: rest
Sunday: rest

By doing this you will have 3/4 days rest between each muscle group and you will have a two day rest (for total body recovery). It will allow you to train with more intensity and it is (generally) a more sustainable routine.

The only issue is where do you put your deadlifts? In upper body, or lower?

How would this routine look? It seems like you have an A upper body workout and a B lower body workout. Then, you just do each one heavy, then light later in the week. It seems like i have to many exercises in order to do that. I would be in the gym forever.

How does your routine look?

I can't do deadlifts or hyperextensions like i mentioned above, due to a car accident. (Lower back, it sucks) I used to do deadlifts in high school and thought it was a great exercise along with squats. But, health comes first...No questions about that.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

My advice would be to put the pushups instead of the overhead extensions, and replace that slot on leg day with Leg Curls with a stability ball.

Basically, you lie on your back with your feet on a stability ball and curl it into you by rolling it across to floor to you.

Its a good exercise and is pretty low impact. Plus in terms of your program you have a little more posterior chain work.

Alright, I'll change the push ups for Monday's and get rid of the overhead. Anything else you might add? Does the rest of the routine look in order?

Also, since I'm taking out overhead extensions, should i throw in another triceps exercise? It take me forever to burn out my triceps...I know bench press, incline, push ups, etc all include triceps, but they never get sore unless i really beat on them...I'm talking 3 hard exercises...I've done pushdowns, extensions and CG bench press, then when i thought i was done, i was still able to do 40 diamond push ups...After those, i was about finished. The next day I'll be able to "feel" it, but not by any means "sore."

Originally Posted by someguy1984

...
I can't do deadlifts or hyperextensions like i mentioned above, due to a car accident. (Lower back, it sucks) I used to do deadlifts in high school and thought it was a great exercise along with squats. But, health comes first...No questions about that.

An overlooked, but effective way to work the spinal erectors (high and low) is to hit a heavy bag. If you do this right (driving your punches off your legs) you will work the back pretty well. Take a look at any professional boxer and note the depth of the spinal erectors. Boxers don't, as a rule, lift weights, so the spinal erector depth is a product of hitting the bags.

Start by striking the bag lightly and add intensity as you go along. It should not hurt your back and it will work your spinal erectors (and give you a mean right cross too). Do make sure your form is good or you can hurt your wrists, but other than that, it is a fine exercise for the shoulders, torso, and spinal erectors.

Additionally you can do kicks on the heavy bag and get a very good abdominal workout.

That does sound like a good idea, but i don't have that kind of equipment and the gym doesn't have a punching bag...I don't know if i feel like going out and buying one...Not sure how much they are either...

Do you mind relaying your routine? (I'll obviously exclude the deadlift)

Originally Posted by someguy1984

How would this routine look? It seems like you have an A upper body workout and a B lower body workout. Then, you just do each one heavy, then light later in the week. It seems like i have to many exercises in order to do that. I would be in the gym forever.

How does your routine look?

.

Upper body:

Bench
Incline bench
Flies
Shoulder press
Triceps extensions (cable)
curls (EZ-curl bar)


Lower body

Dead lifts
Rows,
Leg press
femoral biceps curls
leg extensions
calves


I do abs/torso on both upper and lower body days.

Note: I now train at home and I just do dead lifts, squats and calf raises on my lower body day.

Light days are about 25% lighter in weight but with the same reps and sets. The light days are semi-recovery days and they allow you to train harder on the heavy days.