Training around a back injury

RoosterTX · 04-16-2009, 10:40 AM

Edit:
This thread has been summarized here: (Training around a back injury). Read the individual posts to see the discussion.

_______________________________

So I've tried numerous times to start a thread dedicated to training with a low back injury. Specifically I have a herniated disc in the L4 L5 region with sciatic symptoms on the left side.

For a good while I had tried to continue incorporating squats and deadlifts into my p/rr/s, and other routines.

It's just not working out. So I thought I might find some help in designing my leg abs and back day workouts

I am able to do DB squats, and in truth I like them more than BB as they seem more compound (recruiting the traps, delt, forearms, etc). I also seem to do well by split squat (lunges) with DBs. My primary concern for DB squats is the form. I end up with my arms wide out at my sides, which involves a good deal of upper body tension, and then moving through the squat motion.

I'm somewhat at a loss for what to do for my lower posterior chain, primarily QL, Deads are out, and to a certain extent hypertensions aren't that fantastic for me either.

For Back I feel very comfortable with the following:

Seated rows
Lat Pull downs
Reverse grip pull downs
all variations of chin and pull ups

I feel less comfortable with:

DB Rows
BBRows

For legs I feel very comfortable with:

DB Squats (aside from the issue of what form to use)
DB Split squats
Leg curls
All kinds of calf raises

For Abs:

I am most comfortable doing cable knee tucks
also standing oblique crunches with DB

Generally anything that really loads up the spinal column or requires weighted flexion I would prefer to avoid if possible.

Any additional advice on what exercises might be a good addition would be much appreciated.

largepkg · 04-16-2009, 10:47 AM

Single leg DB lunges will work the posterior nicely. Keep your back upright and flat and you should be fine.

RoosterTX · 04-16-2009, 01:46 PM

Is there a double leg DB lunge? Is there a difference between db split squat and db lunge?

**IainDaniel** · 04-16-2009, 01:51 PM

double leg would be a squat

Lunge requires you coming back to feet beside each other.

Split squat your feet stay in the seperated position

**P-funk** · 04-16-2009, 04:39 PM

Since I am not there and don't know your specific case, I'll be general and tell you the recommendations I give my clients with disc pathologies:

1) Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc).

2) Work on stability - planks, side planks, 1-leg glute bridge (hug the other knee towards the chest), half kneeling chops and lifts, dead bugs, bird dogs, etc..

3) For upper body pull movements get off the seated exercises. Instead, do things like standing 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm pulldowns, inverted rows

4) Train the legs with unilateral movements - split squats, step back lunges, step ups, 1-leg/1-arm RDL, lateral lunge - make sure to perform the exercises properly to develop effective movement patterns/strategies that are spine sparing and allow for proper hip movement.

5) Work on hip mobility. Spare the spine by developing proper hip mobility (this is something I just talked about in my blog). Typically people compensate for crappy hip mobility (and crappy ankle mobility) by increasing lumbar mobility. We want lumbar stability!

6) Don't do things that hurt.

7) When performing stability exercises like planks, don't get all caught up in trying to hold a 60sec side plank. If you don't develop proper endurance in those muscles first, then you will compensate in order to try and hold the plank for that length of time and the form will go to hell. Instead, use short holds and do reps. So, side planks for 5 could holds for 5 reps and slowly work up from there. Build endurance.

8) Use the foam roller on your hips to help clean up poor tissue quality and enhance movement.

hope that helps.

patrick

RoosterTX · 04-16-2009, 05:35 PM

Would this be a good start for hip and ankle mobility? I do a number of these things already.
7 Dynamic Stretches to Improve Your Hip Mobility | StrongLifts.com
How to Improve Your Ankle Mobility | StrongLifts.com

Seated movements don't really hurt. Could I utilize them? I can't find a good example of half-kneeling pulldowns or rows.

I can't do 1leg RDLs on the left side (which is symtompatic) without pain.

What can I do to strengthen my lower back besides various planks and holds, which I already do?

**P-funk** · 04-16-2009, 07:42 PM

Those are some good mobility drills.

I don't know where videos of 1/32 kneeling pulldowns or rows are. I know I have included them in my ebook.

I would stay away from the seated work, even if it doesn't really hurt.

If the 1-leg RDls hurt on the symptomatic side, then do not do them. Stick with the 1-leg glute bridge and the single leg split squats until your symptoms calm down.

Planks, 1/2 kneeling chops and lifts, and bird dogs are all great exercises for developing strong abdominal brace. The error most people make is thinking that they need to "strengthen the lower back" with some special exercises. The lumbar spine gains stability by learning how to brace and then integrating that brace into movements (split squats, lunges, etc...) without having to think about it. I invite you to revisit your form, as most people do not do planks (especially side planks) properly and they do not perform the proper progressions of the movement.

patrick

RoosterTX · 04-16-2009, 09:15 PM

One note side to side leg swings on the left side (symptomatic) aggrevate the sciatica. To a LESSER extent so do regular leg swings on the left side.

What movements could I replace these with?

Any good links for proper form on side planks and planks?

I realize I don't know enough about the movements of the body, at least to formulate a good recovery plan on my own, and was thinking of working with a good team.

Could you vet these guys (know anything about them?) if not I understand and thank you for your help.

Next Level Sports Performance, physical therapy, sports medicine, Denver, Colorado

**P-funk** · 04-16-2009, 10:12 PM

I could see the leg swings firing you up. You may need some neural flossing, but that is not for me to decide via the internet.

I don't have any good videos of planks or the progressions I use, sorry.

I have never heard of those guys either. That doesn't mean they aren't good. I just have never heard of them.

patrick

RoosterTX · 04-17-2009, 12:48 PM

could you explain the proper progression for planks please?

**P-funk** · 04-17-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoosterTX

could you explain the proper progression for planks please?

wall w/rotation
prone on the knees
side plank on the knees
prone on the toes
side plank on the toes
prone w/rotation to side to side
prone with leg lift
prone with arms on stability
prone with arms on stability ball with leg lift
prone with toes on stability ball
prone with toes on stability ball with leg lift
side plank with hip abduction
side plank with feet elevated
side plank with feet elevated w/hip abduction

obviously the side plank and the prone stuff may be going on simultaneously on different days of the program. Those are just some progressions I have listed down, but usually I don't use most of the (lol). Typically if they can hold the prone plank, the side plank and then perform the rotation from prone to side properly, we can move on to other exercises. If they still want/need (psychological reasons) to do their "core" bull shit, I let them do the other nonsense - but I would rather have them on their feet doing some real exercises after that point.

patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 03:22 PM

Now, I am rarely motived purely out of altruism, and this particular problem affects ME (grade 1 anterolisthesis of L5-S1, and now a herniated disc in my neck).

What I would like to have spelled out for me is how to incorporate these movements into something like P/RR/S or BGB or some other split that calls for heavy low rep work.

In particular, I'd like to know how sprinting could work under this limitation, since for example in my case at least, sprinting doesn't aggravate my back injuries - and sprinters got some killer wheels!

I'm specifically interested in hypertrophy for quads and hams, so I am talking about a caloric surplus - just so we're clear.

So, for example, BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - has four days:

Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 bench
5x5 T-bars
3x8 lncline dumbbell bench
3x8 one arm dumbbell rows
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)
5x5 back squats
3x8 front squats
3x12 walking lunges
(optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)

Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 weighted chins
5x5 millies
3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
3x8 Oly bar corner press
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)
5x5 RDLs
3x8 GHRs
3x12 front squats
(optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps)

If heavy squats and deads are out, how could this be adapted to encourage the wheels?

I'm thinking sprints could work in here somewhere, and high rep squats - sprinters and speed-skaters' legs are HUGE so they must be doing SOMETHING right!

**P-funk** · 05-02-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Now, I am rarely motived purely out of altruism, and this particular problem affects ME (grade 1 anterolisthesis of L5-S1, and now a herniated disc in my neck).

What I would like to have spelled out for me is how to incorporate these movements into something like P/RR/S or BGB or some other split that calls for heavy low rep work.

This is a pretty loaded question. You would have to take into account the injury of the individual and where they currently are with regard to pain and function. For example, some people will have disk problems that may limit the individuals ability to move properly (or moving may cause pain), creating atrophy and decrease in strength. So, it is on a case by case basis.

That being said, there are many people who have had herniated disks, spondy's, stenosis and other various back pathologies and can still go workout and lift (and some even can still play pro sports). A lot of it has to do with properly training and knowing what you can and cannot do. The purpose of training should be to make yourself better.

Quote:

In particular, I'd like to know how sprinting could work under this limitation, since for example in my case at least, sprinting doesn't aggravate my back injuries - and sprinters got some killer wheels!

If sprinting doesn't bother you, then great. It may bother others though, so again, this is a case by case basis.

I guess I'll just run through the program below and make some recommendations.

Quote:

I'm specifically interested in hypertrophy for quads and hams, so I am talking about a caloric surplus - just so we're clear.

So, for example, BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - has four days:

Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 bench
5x5 T-bars
3x8 lncline dumbbell bench
3x8 one arm dumbbell rows
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

This day should be okay with those who have back pain. I'd just substitute the t-bar tows with one of the other variations I had above. The 1-arm DB rows may need to be substituted if they produce pain as well.

Quote:

Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)
5x5 back squats
3x8 front squats
3x12 walking lunges
(optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)

This is where things may get "dicey" for someone who is in back pain. The back squats will have to be dropped. Some can still do front squats; however, many have pain with any sort of loading like that, and if I am working with a client I just drop it all together because I would rather be safe than sorry.

Variations in split squats, lunges, and step ups are fine. If you are seeking hypertrophy, work on performing slow eccentrics and even an isometric pause in the bottom of the movement. This will allow you to develop tension without having to load up insane amounts of weight. In addition, you can work on sets of 4-6 reps, just increase weight and still perform the controlled eccentrics.

Quote:

Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 weighted chins
5x5 millies
3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
3x8 Oly bar corner press
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

What are millies?

This day looks fine and just swap anything out if it gives you pain.

Quote:

Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)
5x5 RDLs
3x8 GHRs
3x12 front squats
(optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps)

If heavy squats and deads are out, how could this be adapted to encourage the wheels?

Same type of scenario here as the previous leg day. I like the 1-arm/1-leg RDL, but even that flexion movement may prove to be painful for people. If you can do it and it feels okay, then go with it. Again, single leg movements and control the eccentric. Initially start with loads you can handle and slowly work up over weeks and you can increase to doing lower reps.

Just because you can't squat or deadlift or perform them heavy does not mean that you can't have hypertrophy or strength. It just means that you have to adjust your training based on your limitations.

For example, I have a friend (a physical therapist actually) who has had some significant disc herniations in his lumbar spine. But, he is still strong, he still plays hockey, still has huge legs and he still trains hard. His training program is just different than it used to be. He no longer does back squats or deadlifts. He front squats, but never for maxes and never under 5 reps. He still does power cleans and DB snatches. And everything else he does is lunges or step ups - split squats, lateral lunges, walking lunges, step ups, bulgarian split squat, etc.

You have to adjust the program for you.

Quote:

I'm thinking sprints could work in here somewhere, and high rep squats - sprinters and speed-skaters' legs are HUGE so they must be doing SOMETHING right!

If the sprinting doesn't bother you, then go for it.

Patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 04:13 PM

Thank you for this Patrick. Much obliged.

Millies are military press. I generally do standing push presses because I don't like to do seated shoulder work.

What kind of volume would you recommend given the lighter weights being lifted?

For instance, suppose I can do 3x8 back squats with 165 and 3x8 fronts with a plate a side, but my back goes out and I'm unable to do anything heavier than 95 lb fronts.

For the sake of this thread (okay because this applies to me personally, sue me...) let's also assume that GHRs are okay but regular or single leg RDLs are not. SHELC and leg curls are possible, also hypers but not single leg.

How would I set up my leg days with higher-rep fronts, the above movements and some sprints to stimulate hypertrophy?

What would my quad dominant leg day look like?
ie reps, sets, movements

How about my ham dominant leg day? Or would I do both leg days basically the same?

**P-funk** · 05-02-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Thank you for this Patrick. Much obliged.

Millies are military press. I generally do standing push presses because I don't like to do seated shoulder work.

What kind of volume would you recommend given the lighter weights being lifted?

For instance, suppose I can do 3x8 back squats with 165 and 3x8 fronts with a plate a side, but my back goes out and I'm unable to do anything heavier than 95 lb fronts.

Okay, that is a good question. So 95lbs for front squats is your "limit" at the moment. You can increase the sets and perform the same reps (IE, 4x8, 5x8, etc). You can also keep the reps low (3-5) and perform more sets (IE, 8x4, 10x4, etc...). The slowing down of the eccentric and the hold at the bottom will also make things more difficult and create more fatigue then just doing straight sets, so all things are not created equal. From there, as you feel more comfortable, you may be able to raise the weight slowly. Initially though, you may not be able to get away with doing the front squats right out of the gait.

Quote:

For the sake of this thread (okay because this applies to me personally, sue me...) let's also assume that GHRs are okay but regular or single leg RDLs are not. SHELC and leg curls are possible, also hypers but not single leg.

Stick with what you can do. Remember, it is case by case. Your workout may be something like bulgarian split squat (or front squat), GHR, and hypers (if those don't bother you - some people hate these).

Quote:

How would I set up my leg days with higher-rep fronts, the above movements and some sprints to stimulate hypertrophy?

What would my quad dominant leg day look like?
ie reps, sets, movements

How about my ham dominant leg day? Or would I do both leg days basically the same?

Could be something like this:

Quad dominant Day
1) Front Squat - 3count eccentric/1-count isometric - 5x6
2) Lateral lunge - 3x8
3) SHELC - 3x12

I would actually do my sprints 1st and then lift (or sprint on a different day).

Ham dominant Day
1) Step up - 5x6ea leg
2) Glute Ham - 3x8
3) Hypers (since they don't bother your back) - 3x12

patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 04:41 PM

Yes!! This was what I was after!

Now, for the sprints, these are obviously not HIIT. I do dynamic warmup for sprints - so after the dynamic warmup, what would you suggest for the sprints and rests? How many sprints, how long and how long for the rests? I'm thinking of them like "sets", so 15-20 seconds (roughly equivalent to 5-8 rep sets going by Poliquin's "time under tension"), then a minute or two active rest (slow walking), perhaps 5 or 6 sprints like this - then the rest of the leg work?

Thoughts?

**P-funk** · 05-02-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Yes!! This was what I was after!

Now, for the sprints, these are obviously not HIIT. I do dynamic warmup for sprints - so after the dynamic warmup, what would you suggest for the sprints and rests? How many sprints, how long and how long for the rests? I'm thinking of them like "sets", so 15-20 seconds (roughly equivalent to 5-8 rep sets going by Poliquin's "time under tension"), then a minute or two active rest (slow walking), perhaps 5 or 6 sprints like this - then the rest of the leg work?

Thoughts?

I thought you would ask that (lol).

That is good that they are not HIIT sprints. People always talk about sprinters and their physique but fail to recognize that sprinters don't do interval training the way that people think. They sprint, then rest for awhile, then sprint again. It isn't 30sec work:30sec rest or anything like that.

For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts. Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides. Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared. Then we were ready. We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations. Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m. We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws. Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day.

I would do something similar. 15-20min. on non-stop activity for warm up, mixing in dynamic drills (body weight squats, lunges, various stretches held for 1-2sec, etc) and 100m strides (very low intensity and keep loose). Then, perform some sprints (20-40m), but they don't have to be all out 100% max effort. 90-95% (submax sprints) are fine and make sure you are working on good technique. You can take full rest in between the sets (3-5min) or do some walking or light activity, but nothing to strenuous. I would do anywhere from 5-8 sprints and then go lift.

Something along those lines.

Patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 06:06 PM

Muah! This is EXACTLY what I've been looking for. Thanks HEAPS!

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 08:11 PM

Summarizing this thread - for non-specific disc pathologies (that's "a bad back" for the humans), Performance Coach and Licensed Massage Therapist Patrick Ward gives the following broad recommendations based on what he gives his clients with these types of injuries.

Obviously, since he is not there and does not know your specific case - please see a health care professional for your specific concerns.

Patrick Ward:

Don't do things that hurt. (MariAnne's note: I moved this to the top - for everything that follows, obviously if it hurts YOU, don't do it.)
Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc) even if it doesn't really hurt. (MariAnne's note: I have a lower spine problem myself and had to make the switch to standing. It only sucks at first; once you re-learn how to stabilize yourself while standing, you'll never want to go back as you will find you need to do less direct ab work than you once thought!)
Work on stability - planks, side planks, 1-leg glute bridge (hug the other knee towards the chest), half kneeling chops and lifts, dead bugs, bird dogs, etc.
For upper body pull movements get off the seated exercises. Instead, do things like standing 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm pulldowns, inverted rows
Train the legs with unilateral movements - split squats, step back lunges, step ups, 1-leg/1-arm RDL, lateral lunge - make sure to perform the exercises properly to develop effective movement patterns/strategies that are spine sparing and allow for proper hip movement. If the 1-leg RDLs hurt on the symptomatic side, then do not do them. Stick with the 1-leg glute bridge and the single leg split squats until your symptoms calm down.
Work on hip mobility. Spare the spine by developing proper hip mobility (this is something I just talked about in my blog). Typically people compensate for crappy hip mobility (and crappy ankle mobility) by increasing lumbar mobility. We want lumbar stability!

These are some good mobility drills:
7 Dynamic Stretches to Improve Your Hip Mobility | StrongLifts.com
How to Improve Your Ankle Mobility | StrongLifts.com

I have included 1/2 kneeling pulldowns and rows in my ebook. (MariAnne's note: Patrick Ward's ebook "Take Charge! Everything You Need to Know to Write Your Own Training Program" is an excellent value for the thirty bucks. I highly recommend it to anyone, even if you are already a fairly experienced lifter. I'm dealing with a variety of injuries right now, and believe me when I say prehab is preferable to rehab!)
When performing stability exercises like planks, don't get all caught up in trying to hold a 60sec side plank. If you don't develop proper endurance in those muscles first, then you will compensate in order to try and hold the plank for that length of time and the form will go to hell. Instead, use short holds and do reps. So, side planks for 5 could holds for 5 reps and slowly work up from there. Build endurance.

Planks, 1/2 kneeling chops and lifts, and bird dogs are all great exercises for developing strong abdominal brace. The error most people make is thinking that they need to "strengthen the lower back" with some special exercises. The lumbar spine gains stability by learning how to brace and then integrating that brace into movements (split squats, lunges, etc...) without having to think about it. I invite you to revisit your form, as most people do not do planks (especially side planks) properly and they do not perform the proper progressions of the movement.

For example:
- wall w/rotation
- prone on the knees
- side plank on the knees
- prone on the toes
- side plank on the toes
- prone w/rotation to side to side
- prone with leg lift
- prone with arms on stability
- prone with arms on stability ball with leg lift
- prone with toes on stability ball
- prone with toes on stability ball with leg lift
- side plank with hip abduction
- side plank with feet elevated
- side plank with feet elevated w/hip abduction
Obviously the side plank and the prone stuff may be going on simultaneously on different days of the program. Those are just some progressions I have listed down, but usually I don't use most of the (lol). Typically if they can hold the prone plank, the side plank and then perform the rotation from prone to side properly, we can move on to other exercises. If they still want/need (psychological reasons) to do their "core" bull shit, I let them do the other nonsense - but I would rather have them on their feet doing some real exercises after that point.
Use the foam roller on your hips to help clean up poor tissue quality and enhance movement.

Working this into an existing split that calls for heavy low rep work, we need to define the parameters.

In my case, I have anterolisthesis of L5 over S1, and a herniation in my c-spine.

Ordinarily, I can back squat 165 lbs in 8-rep sets, and front squat 135 for 8-rep sets, but when my back bugs me I'm down to 95 lbs for fronts, and backs are out of the picture. Interestingly, I CAN usually sprint - so I'd like to work these into my training somehow, and not just the HIIT-type fat loss stuff.

I can usually count on being able do the following:
Front squats with 95 lbs
GHRs
Walking lunges
Sprints
Lateral lunges
SHELC
Step up
Glute Ham Raises
Hypers
Sprints

The question is how to create intensity in these movements so as to stimulate hypertrophy.

Patrick Ward: So 95lbs for front squats is your "limit" at the moment.
You can increase the sets and perform the same reps (IE, 4x8, 5x8, etc).

You can also keep the reps low (3-5) and perform more sets (IE, 8x4, 10x4, etc...).

Slowing down the eccentric and the hold at the bottom will also make things more difficult and create more fatigue then just doing straight sets, so all things are not created equal.

From there, as you feel more comfortable, you may be able to raise the weight slowly. Initially though, you may not be able to get away with doing the front squats right out of the gate.

I generally do a dynamic warmup before I do sprint work, but they're usually for fat-mobilization, not hypertrophy. This is a different application. For THESE sprints, I'm not going for HIIT-type intervals - this isn't to mobilize FFAs, but rather to promote muscle-growth. I'm thinking of it as a sub for heavy hamstring work, and that means reps and sets, with rest in between. Using Poliquin's "Time Under Tension" as a general guideline, I'm thinking something like 20-second sprints with a minute or two recovery between "sets", or sprints.

Patrick Ward: People always talk about sprinters and their physiques but fail to recognize that sprinters don't do interval training the way that people think. They sprint, then rest for awhile, then sprint again. It isn't 30 sec work:30 sec rest or anything like that.

For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts. Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides. Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared. Then we were ready. We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations. Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m. We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws. Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day.

I would do something similar. 15-20min. on non-stop activity for warm up, mixing in dynamic drills (body weight squats, lunges, various stretches held for 1-2sec, etc) and 100m strides (very low intensity and keep loose). Then, perform some sprints (20-40m), but they don't have to be all out 100% max effort. 90-95% (submax sprints) are fine and make sure you are working on good technique. You can take full rest in between the sets (3-5min) or do some walking or light activity, but nothing to strenuous. I would do anywhere from 5-8 sprints and then go lift.

Something along those lines.

Spelling this out in detail for BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - here's what we came up with:

Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 bench
5x5 T-bars ** sub in chest-supported T-bars or other movement you can tolerate, such as motorcycle rows or inverted rows AKA "fat man pullups"
3x8 incline dumbbell bench
3x8 one arm dumbbell rows **sub in one-arm cable rows if these bother you
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps)
Instead of:
5x5 back squats
3x8 front squats
3x12 walking lunges
(optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps)

Do this:
Dynamic warmup
5-8 Sprints - see above for details

Front Squat - 3-count eccentric/1-count isometric hold - 5x6
Lateral lunge - 3x8
SHELC - 3x12
(optional bicep work)

Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs)
5x5 weighted chins
5x5 millies
3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns
3x8 Oly bar corner press
(optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves)

Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps)
Instead of this:
5x5 RDLs
3x8 GHRs
3x12 front squats
(optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps)

Do this:
Dynamic warmup
5-8 Sprints - see above for details

Step ups - 5x6 ea leg
Glute Ham Raises - 3x8
Hypers or reverse hypers (since they don't bother my back) - 3x12

**P-funk** · 05-02-2009, 08:20 PM

I should say, this is all very general information. If you are dealing with back problems, be sure to get checked out by a professional to determine what you should and should not be doing. If you are coming back from a back injury and starting to train again, seek out a professional (preferably a knowledgeable trainer) who can assess you and help you formulate a concrete plan. Part of that plan may start with learning how to re-groove movement patterns (as McGill would say) and slowly develop proper control and awareness.

Patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 08:28 PM

Noted - this one is more specific to MY needs since, well, I asked!

Thank you Patrick.

Oh - any problem with doing the sprints twice a week like that - should I vary how I do them if I do them twice in a week?

**P-funk** · 05-02-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Noted - this one is more specific to MY needs since, well, I asked!

Thank you Patrick.

Oh - any problem with doing the sprints twice a week like that - should I vary how I do them if I do them twice in a week?

You can do them twice a week on leg day.

Do your tempo work on upper body days.

patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 09:24 PM

"tempo" work?

**P-funk** · 05-02-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

"tempo" work?

Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.

For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.

The tempo work would be on your upper body days. For example, it may be something like tempo runs at a low intensity (<75% intensity) and you may do something like 200m tempo run, followed by a walk recovery, and repeat. Or, you may do a low volume of longer distance tempo work, like say, 3x600m tempo runs with active recovery, again at <75%. The reason that the tempo work is below 75% is to ensure that you are not sapping your nervous system so that you can adequately work on your speed/sprint days. The speed work is over 90% because anything below 90% (in that 75-85% range) is too slow to be considered speed work and to fast to be considered tempo work (or speed endurance work), so it will just burn you out.

Other things you can do for tempo work may be something like rowing intervals, bike intervals (if those don't bother your back) or, I like to use either KB snatches or KB swings (can use DBs if you want) for something like 15sec work:15sec rest for a set amount of time.

Those are just some ideas. So many ways to set up a training program though.

patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Yea, submaximal conditioning/work capacity stuff.

For example, since we are talking about sprint training, you would have your sprint days, which are +90% (but not maximal for speed or distance), which are done on your leg days.

The tempo work would be on your upper body days. For example, it may be something like tempo runs at a low intensity (<75% intensity) and you may do something like 200m tempo run, followed by a walk recovery, and repeat. Or, you may do a low volume of longer distance tempo work, like say, 3x600m tempo runs with active recovery, again at <75%. The reason that the tempo work is below 75% is to ensure that you are not sapping your nervous system so that you can adequately work on your speed/sprint days. The speed work is over 90% because anything below 90% (in that 75-85% range) is too slow to be considered speed work and to fast to be considered tempo work (or speed endurance work), so it will just burn you out.

Other things you can do for tempo work may be something like rowing intervals, bike intervals (if those don't bother your back) or, I like to use either KB snatches or KB swings (can use DBs if you want) for something like 15sec work:15sec rest for a set amount of time.

Those are just some ideas. So many ways to set up a training program though.

patrick

Hence your book. LOL!

Okay - I sometimes do hill repeats. Something like that could work here I suppose, right?

I do them as a walk - me and jogging don't get along too well - on a treadmill, at an incline.
(warmup at low grade for a minute or so)

4 minutes at 10%
1 minute at 5%

4 minutes at 11%
1 minute at 5%

etc until I max out the treadmill at 15%.

(Cooldown at low grade for a minute or so)

How about complexes - too much for this?

For the tempo runs - most of the time, I'll be doing these on a treadmill, so how long would these be - like, 40 seconds for the shorter tempo work, and maybe 90 seconds for the longer ones? How many and how many?

And would I do the tempo work at the end of my lifting? I'm thinking I'd be kinda sapped if I did 'em first.

**P-funk** · 05-02-2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Hence your book. LOL!

Okay - I sometimes do hill repeats. Something like that could work here I suppose, right?

I do them as a walk - me and jogging don't get along too well - on a treadmill, at an incline.
(warmup at low grade for a minute or so)

4 minutes at 10%
1 minute at 5%

4 minutes at 11%
1 minute at 5%

etc until I max out the treadmill at 15%.

(Cooldown at low grade for a minute or so)

How about complexes - too much for this?

And would I do the tempo work at the end of my lifting? I'm thinking I'd be kinda sapped if I did 'em first.

Yea, that incline walking is fine. I would do it at the end of the training day on upper body day - so lift first, then do the incline walking.

complexes can work if they are kept submaximal and don't interfere with the sprinting and leg day.

patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 09:49 PM

Cool - so I could do hills for one of 'em, and complexes for the other. Excellent. Probably do the complexes for the first one, since they're more taxing than the hills.

I unfortunately edited before you replied. I added a question regarding the "tempo runs". How many of each length, and do I have the interval time about where you were thinking?

**P-funk** · 05-02-2009, 09:54 PM

The time can be whatever you set it at. Sometimes I do my tempo work as 60sec run:90sec walk for 20min, as an example.

patrick

**Built** · 05-02-2009, 10:01 PM

Cool.

You're the bomb!

nkira · 05-03-2009, 05:45 AM

KABOOM!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Cool.

You're the bomb!

04-16-2009, 10:40 AM	#1
RoosterTX Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 233	Training around a back injury Edit: This thread has been summarized here: (Training around a back injury). Read the individual posts to see the discussion. _______________________________ So I've tried numerous times to start a thread dedicated to training with a low back injury. Specifically I have a herniated disc in the L4 L5 region with sciatic symptoms on the left side. For a good while I had tried to continue incorporating squats and deadlifts into my p/rr/s, and other routines. It's just not working out. So I thought I might find some help in designing my leg abs and back day workouts I am able to do DB squats, and in truth I like them more than BB as they seem more compound (recruiting the traps, delt, forearms, etc). I also seem to do well by split squat (lunges) with DBs. My primary concern for DB squats is the form. I end up with my arms wide out at my sides, which involves a good deal of upper body tension, and then moving through the squat motion. I'm somewhat at a loss for what to do for my lower posterior chain, primarily QL, Deads are out, and to a certain extent hypertensions aren't that fantastic for me either. For Back I feel very comfortable with the following: Seated rows Lat Pull downs Reverse grip pull downs all variations of chin and pull ups I feel less comfortable with: DB Rows BBRows For legs I feel very comfortable with: DB Squats (aside from the issue of what form to use) DB Split squats Leg curls All kinds of calf raises For Abs: I am most comfortable doing cable knee tucks also standing oblique crunches with DB Generally anything that really loads up the spinal column or requires weighted flexion I would prefer to avoid if possible. Any additional advice on what exercises might be a good addition would be much appreciated. Last edited by Built : 05-02-2009 at 08:12 PM.

04-16-2009, 01:51 PM	#4
IainDaniel My Role Model Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 17,524	double leg would be a squat Lunge requires you coming back to feet beside each other. Split squat your feet stay in the seperated position Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. Michael Jordan

04-16-2009, 04:39 PM	#5
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	Since I am not there and don't know your specific case, I'll be general and tell you the recommendations I give my clients with disc pathologies: 1) Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc). 2) Work on stability - planks, side planks, 1-leg glute bridge (hug the other knee towards the chest), half kneeling chops and lifts, dead bugs, bird dogs, etc.. 3) For upper body pull movements get off the seated exercises. Instead, do things like standing 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm pulldowns, inverted rows 4) Train the legs with unilateral movements - split squats, step back lunges, step ups, 1-leg/1-arm RDL, lateral lunge - make sure to perform the exercises properly to develop effective movement patterns/strategies that are spine sparing and allow for proper hip movement. 5) Work on hip mobility. Spare the spine by developing proper hip mobility (this is something I just talked about in my blog). Typically people compensate for crappy hip mobility (and crappy ankle mobility) by increasing lumbar mobility. We want lumbar stability! 6) Don't do things that hurt. 7) When performing stability exercises like planks, don't get all caught up in trying to hold a 60sec side plank. If you don't develop proper endurance in those muscles first, then you will compensate in order to try and hold the plank for that length of time and the form will go to hell. Instead, use short holds and do reps. So, side planks for 5 could holds for 5 reps and slowly work up from there. Build endurance. 8) Use the foam roller on your hips to help clean up poor tissue quality and enhance movement. hope that helps. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-16-2009, 05:35 PM	#6
RoosterTX Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 233	Would this be a good start for hip and ankle mobility? I do a number of these things already. 7 Dynamic Stretches to Improve Your Hip Mobility \| StrongLifts.com How to Improve Your Ankle Mobility \| StrongLifts.com Seated movements don't really hurt. Could I utilize them? I can't find a good example of half-kneeling pulldowns or rows. I can't do 1leg RDLs on the left side (which is symtompatic) without pain. What can I do to strengthen my lower back besides various planks and holds, which I already do? Last edited by RoosterTX : 04-16-2009 at 05:46 PM.

04-16-2009, 07:42 PM	#7
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	Those are some good mobility drills. I don't know where videos of 1/32 kneeling pulldowns or rows are. I know I have included them in my ebook. I would stay away from the seated work, even if it doesn't really hurt. If the 1-leg RDls hurt on the symptomatic side, then do not do them. Stick with the 1-leg glute bridge and the single leg split squats until your symptoms calm down. Planks, 1/2 kneeling chops and lifts, and bird dogs are all great exercises for developing strong abdominal brace. The error most people make is thinking that they need to "strengthen the lower back" with some special exercises. The lumbar spine gains stability by learning how to brace and then integrating that brace into movements (split squats, lunges, etc...) without having to think about it. I invite you to revisit your form, as most people do not do planks (especially side planks) properly and they do not perform the proper progressions of the movement. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-16-2009, 10:47 AM	#2
largepkg FAT JESUS Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: S FLA Posts: 3,687 Photos: 2	Single leg DB lunges will work the posterior nicely. Keep your back upright and flat and you should be fine.

04-16-2009, 01:46 PM	#3
RoosterTX Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 233	Is there a double leg DB lunge? Is there a difference between db split squat and db lunge?

04-16-2009, 09:15 PM	#8
RoosterTX Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 233	One note side to side leg swings on the left side (symptomatic) aggrevate the sciatica. To a LESSER extent so do regular leg swings on the left side. What movements could I replace these with? Any good links for proper form on side planks and planks? I realize I don't know enough about the movements of the body, at least to formulate a good recovery plan on my own, and was thinking of working with a good team. Could you vet these guys (know anything about them?) if not I understand and thank you for your help. Next Level Sports Performance, physical therapy, sports medicine, Denver, Colorado

04-16-2009, 10:12 PM	#9
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	I could see the leg swings firing you up. You may need some neural flossing, but that is not for me to decide via the internet. I don't have any good videos of planks or the progressions I use, sorry. I have never heard of those guys either. That doesn't mean they aren't good. I just have never heard of them. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-17-2009, 12:48 PM	#10
RoosterTX Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 233	could you explain the proper progression for planks please?

05-02-2009, 03:22 PM	#12
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Now, I am rarely motived purely out of altruism, and this particular problem affects ME (grade 1 anterolisthesis of L5-S1, and now a herniated disc in my neck). What I would like to have spelled out for me is how to incorporate these movements into something like P/RR/S or BGB or some other split that calls for heavy low rep work. In particular, I'd like to know how sprinting could work under this limitation, since for example in my case at least, sprinting doesn't aggravate my back injuries - and sprinters got some killer wheels! I'm specifically interested in hypertrophy for quads and hams, so I am talking about a caloric surplus - just so we're clear. So, for example, BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - has four days: Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs) 5x5 bench 5x5 T-bars 3x8 lncline dumbbell bench 3x8 one arm dumbbell rows (optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves) Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps) 5x5 back squats 3x8 front squats 3x12 walking lunges (optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps) Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs) 5x5 weighted chins 5x5 millies 3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns 3x8 Oly bar corner press (optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves) Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps) 5x5 RDLs 3x8 GHRs 3x12 front squats (optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps) If heavy squats and deads are out, how could this be adapted to encourage the wheels? I'm thinking sprints could work in here somewhere, and high rep squats - sprinters and speed-skaters' legs are HUGE so they must be doing SOMETHING right! Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-02-2009, 04:13 PM	#14
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Thank you for this Patrick. Much obliged. Millies are military press. I generally do standing push presses because I don't like to do seated shoulder work. What kind of volume would you recommend given the lighter weights being lifted? For instance, suppose I can do 3x8 back squats with 165 and 3x8 fronts with a plate a side, but my back goes out and I'm unable to do anything heavier than 95 lb fronts. For the sake of this thread (okay because this applies to me personally, sue me...) let's also assume that GHRs are okay but regular or single leg RDLs are not. SHELC and leg curls are possible, also hypers but not single leg. How would I set up my leg days with higher-rep fronts, the above movements and some sprints to stimulate hypertrophy? What would my quad dominant leg day look like? ie reps, sets, movements How about my ham dominant leg day? Or would I do both leg days basically the same? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-02-2009, 04:41 PM	#16
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Yes!! This was what I was after! Now, for the sprints, these are obviously not HIIT. I do dynamic warmup for sprints - so after the dynamic warmup, what would you suggest for the sprints and rests? How many sprints, how long and how long for the rests? I'm thinking of them like "sets", so 15-20 seconds (roughly equivalent to 5-8 rep sets going by Poliquin's "time under tension"), then a minute or two active rest (slow walking), perhaps 5 or 6 sprints like this - then the rest of the leg work? Thoughts? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-02-2009, 06:06 PM	#18
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Muah! This is EXACTLY what I've been looking for. Thanks HEAPS! Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-02-2009, 08:11 PM	#19
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Summarizing this thread - for non-specific disc pathologies (that's "a bad back" for the humans), Performance Coach and Licensed Massage Therapist Patrick Ward gives the following broad recommendations based on what he gives his clients with these types of injuries. Obviously, since he is not there and does not know your specific case - please see a health care professional for your specific concerns. Patrick Ward: Don't do things that hurt. (MariAnne's note: I moved this to the top - for everything that follows, obviously if it hurts YOU, don't do it.) Take out flexion based exercise - crunches, bilateral deadlifts, bent over rows, exercises performed in a seated position (seated rows, seated pulldowns, etc) even if it doesn't really hurt. (MariAnne's note: I have a lower spine problem myself and had to make the switch to standing. It only sucks at first; once you re-learn how to stabilize yourself while standing, you'll never want to go back as you will find you need to do less direct ab work than you once thought!) Work on stability - planks, side planks, 1-leg glute bridge (hug the other knee towards the chest), half kneeling chops and lifts, dead bugs, bird dogs, etc. For upper body pull movements get off the seated exercises. Instead, do things like standing 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm cable rows, half kneeling 1-arm pulldowns, inverted rows Train the legs with unilateral movements - split squats, step back lunges, step ups, 1-leg/1-arm RDL, lateral lunge - make sure to perform the exercises properly to develop effective movement patterns/strategies that are spine sparing and allow for proper hip movement. If the 1-leg RDLs hurt on the symptomatic side, then do not do them. Stick with the 1-leg glute bridge and the single leg split squats until your symptoms calm down. Work on hip mobility. Spare the spine by developing proper hip mobility (this is something I just talked about in my blog). Typically people compensate for crappy hip mobility (and crappy ankle mobility) by increasing lumbar mobility. We want lumbar stability! These are some good mobility drills: 7 Dynamic Stretches to Improve Your Hip Mobility \| StrongLifts.com How to Improve Your Ankle Mobility \| StrongLifts.com I have included 1/2 kneeling pulldowns and rows in my ebook. (MariAnne's note: Patrick Ward's ebook "Take Charge! Everything You Need to Know to Write Your Own Training Program" is an excellent value for the thirty bucks. I highly recommend it to anyone, even if you are already a fairly experienced lifter. I'm dealing with a variety of injuries right now, and believe me when I say prehab is preferable to rehab!) When performing stability exercises like planks, don't get all caught up in trying to hold a 60sec side plank. If you don't develop proper endurance in those muscles first, then you will compensate in order to try and hold the plank for that length of time and the form will go to hell. Instead, use short holds and do reps. So, side planks for 5 could holds for 5 reps and slowly work up from there. Build endurance. Planks, 1/2 kneeling chops and lifts, and bird dogs are all great exercises for developing strong abdominal brace. The error most people make is thinking that they need to "strengthen the lower back" with some special exercises. The lumbar spine gains stability by learning how to brace and then integrating that brace into movements (split squats, lunges, etc...) without having to think about it. I invite you to revisit your form, as most people do not do planks (especially side planks) properly and they do not perform the proper progressions of the movement. For example: wall w/rotation prone on the knees side plank on the knees prone on the toes side plank on the toes prone w/rotation to side to side prone with leg lift prone with arms on stability prone with arms on stability ball with leg lift prone with toes on stability ball prone with toes on stability ball with leg lift side plank with hip abduction side plank with feet elevated side plank with feet elevated w/hip abduction Obviously the side plank and the prone stuff may be going on simultaneously on different days of the program. Those are just some progressions I have listed down, but usually I don't use most of the (lol). Typically if they can hold the prone plank, the side plank and then perform the rotation from prone to side properly, we can move on to other exercises. If they still want/need (psychological reasons) to do their "core" bull shit, I let them do the other nonsense - but I would rather have them on their feet doing some real exercises after that point. Use the foam roller on your hips to help clean up poor tissue quality and enhance movement. Working this into an existing split that calls for heavy low rep work, we need to define the parameters. In my case, I have anterolisthesis of L5 over S1, and a herniation in my c-spine. Ordinarily, I can back squat 165 lbs in 8-rep sets, and front squat 135 for 8-rep sets, but when my back bugs me I'm down to 95 lbs for fronts, and backs are out of the picture. Interestingly, I CAN usually sprint - so I'd like to work these into my training somehow, and not just the HIIT-type fat loss stuff. I can usually count on being able do the following: Front squats with 95 lbs GHRs Walking lunges Sprints Lateral lunges SHELC Step up Glute Ham Raises Hypers Sprints The question is how to create intensity in these movements so as to stimulate hypertrophy. Patrick Ward: So 95lbs for front squats is your "limit" at the moment. You can increase the sets and perform the same reps (IE, 4x8, 5x8, etc). You can also keep the reps low (3-5) and perform more sets (IE, 8x4, 10x4, etc...). Slowing down the eccentric and the hold at the bottom will also make things more difficult and create more fatigue then just doing straight sets, so all things are not created equal. From there, as you feel more comfortable, you may be able to raise the weight slowly. Initially though, you may not be able to get away with doing the front squats right out of the gate. I generally do a dynamic warmup before I do sprint work, but they're usually for fat-mobilization, not hypertrophy. This is a different application. For THESE sprints, I'm not going for HIIT-type intervals - this isn't to mobilize FFAs, but rather to promote muscle-growth. I'm thinking of it as a sub for heavy hamstring work, and that means reps and sets, with rest in between. Using Poliquin's "Time Under Tension" as a general guideline, I'm thinking something like 20-second sprints with a minute or two recovery between "sets", or sprints. Patrick Ward: People always talk about sprinters and their physiques but fail to recognize that sprinters don't do interval training the way that people think. They sprint, then rest for awhile, then sprint again. It isn't 30 sec work:30 sec rest or anything like that. For example, if you look in my journal (on my site), on wed., we did all our sprinting first and then our deadlifts. Our warm up was about 20min of activity centering around some dynamic mobility drills and 100m strides. Then, we did some subamximal 30m sprints to get the legs prepared. Then we were ready. We alternated sets of weighted 30m accelerations (low weight) and un-weighted 30m accelerations. Trying to accelerate up to the 20m mark (established by a cone) and then maintain that pace for the final 10m. We did 3 weight sprints and 3 unweighted sprints (6 total) and then we did a variety of medicine ball throws. Then we went inside and worked on some deadlifts and called it a day. I would do something similar. 15-20min. on non-stop activity for warm up, mixing in dynamic drills (body weight squats, lunges, various stretches held for 1-2sec, etc) and 100m strides (very low intensity and keep loose). Then, perform some sprints (20-40m), but they don't have to be all out 100% max effort. 90-95% (submax sprints) are fine and make sure you are working on good technique. You can take full rest in between the sets (3-5min) or do some walking or light activity, but nothing to strenuous. I would do anywhere from 5-8 sprints and then go lift. Something along those lines. Spelling this out in detail for BGB - an Ian King type of arrangement - here's what we came up with: Horizontal push pull (optional calves and abs) 5x5 bench 5x5 T-bars sub in chest-supported T-bars or other movement you can tolerate, such as motorcycle rows or inverted rows AKA "fat man pullups" 3x8 incline dumbbell bench 3x8 one arm dumbbell rows sub in one-arm cable rows if these bother you (optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves) Quad dominant, ham accessory (optional biceps) Instead of: 5x5 back squats 3x8 front squats 3x12 walking lunges (optional 12 rep stuff for quads, optional biceps) Do this: Dynamic warmup 5-8 Sprints - see above for details Front Squat - 3-count eccentric/1-count isometric hold - 5x6 Lateral lunge - 3x8 SHELC - 3x12 (optional bicep work) Vertical push pull (optional calves and abs) 5x5 weighted chins 5x5 millies 3x8 alternating single arm lat pulldowns 3x8 Oly bar corner press (optional 12 rep stuff, abs, calves) Ham dominant, quad accessory (optional triceps) Instead of this: 5x5 RDLs 3x8 GHRs 3x12 front squats (optional 12 rep stuff for hams, optional triceps) Do this: Dynamic warmup 5-8 Sprints - see above for details Step ups - 5x6 ea leg Glute Ham Raises - 3x8 Hypers or reverse hypers (since they don't bother my back) - 3x12 Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-02-2009, 08:20 PM	#20
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	I should say, this is all very general information. If you are dealing with back problems, be sure to get checked out by a professional to determine what you should and should not be doing. If you are coming back from a back injury and starting to train again, seek out a professional (preferably a knowledgeable trainer) who can assess you and help you formulate a concrete plan. Part of that plan may start with learning how to re-groove movement patterns (as McGill would say) and slowly develop proper control and awareness. Patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-02-2009, 08:28 PM	#21
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Noted - this one is more specific to MY needs since, well, I asked! Thank you Patrick. Oh - any problem with doing the sprints twice a week like that - should I vary how I do them if I do them twice in a week? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-02-2009, 09:24 PM	#23
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	"tempo" work? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-02-2009, 09:49 PM	#27
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Cool - so I could do hills for one of 'em, and complexes for the other. Excellent. Probably do the complexes for the first one, since they're more taxing than the hills. I unfortunately edited before you replied. I added a question regarding the "tempo runs". How many of each length, and do I have the interval time about where you were thinking? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-02-2009, 09:54 PM	#28
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,660	The time can be whatever you set it at. Sometimes I do my tempo work as 60sec run:90sec walk for 20min, as an example. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-02-2009, 10:01 PM	#29
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	Cool. You're the bomb! Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

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