Thread: Which routine is better?

How many sets for each one? Both look like allot of volume for a 3 or 4 day split with first option being the lesser of the two IMO.

Generally i prefer an Upper Push/Lower Pull/Upper Pull/Lower Push split, but i would do it 3x a week rather than 4x, because it would be a lot of volume like rahaas said.

Sets?

Reps?

Periodization?

Also, if you're going to do #2, spread it out like Mon/Tues/Thurs/Fri.

Wed-Thurs-Fri with high volume of compound movements will burn you our quick.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Generally i prefer an Upper Push/Lower Pull/Upper Pull/Lower Push split, but i would do it 3x a week rather than 4x, because it would be a lot of volume like rahaas said.

Sets?

Reps?

Periodization?

3 sets for compound movements.
2 sets for isolation.

Periodization will be switching the days around. Instead of doing legs on Friday one week, I'll do it on Wednesday and do Wednesday's routine Friday, etc...

Honestly, it doesn't seem like much volume to me. I'm active 5 days a week. So, either i lift on Thursday, or running/abs. I really can't stand sitting around. Currently, I'm doing the first routine and running/abs on Tuesday and Thursday. I'm merely taking out a running day and using Thursday as another lifting day. I want to slowly start adding mass, but i want to hit all my muscles evenly with anterior, lateral, and posterior deltoid work. Adding Thursday seems to make this happen.

Originally Posted by someguy1984

3 sets for compound movements.
2 sets for isolation.

Periodization will be switching the days around. Instead of doing legs on Friday one week, I'll do it on Wednesday and do Wednesday's routine Friday, etc...

I would look into periodizing rep ranges, week to week or something.

Even something simple like having one week a leg-dominant week, and the next an upper dominant week would be cool. Either in terms of intensity or volume. Just switching the days around isn't changing any variables.

Monday upper/Push

Bench Press
Incline press
Dips
Military press
Overhead Extensions
Push downs

Wednesday lower/Pull

Leg curls
?
?
?
A lot of legs seems to be a pushing movement...

Thursday: Upper/Pull

Deadlift
BB row
Dumbbell raise
Pull ups
Preacher curls
Incline curls

Friday Legs:

Squats
Push leg machine
lunge
Calf Raises

How would you set this up? I really can't think of anything to fit in with lower/pull...

Also, i see where your coming from with the periodization. Perhaps a heavy low rep leg week and the following a heavy low rep upper. That makes sense.

Lower pull movements:

Deadlifts
Good Mornings
Single Leg Deadlifts
Glute Ham Raises
Hyperextensions
Single Leg Hyperextensions

Take your pick, lol.

For the periodization, you got it. On the heavy leg weeks the upper would be light, and vice versa

Would throw a few extra sets in for legs in comparison to upper body since you have less exercises for them also, just to keep that balance there.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Lower pull movements:

Deadlifts
Good Mornings
Single Leg Deadlifts
Glute Ham Raises
Hyperextensions
Single Leg Hyperextensions

Take your pick, lol.

For the periodization, you got it. On the heavy leg weeks the upper would be light, and vice versa

Would throw a few extra sets in for legs in comparison to upper body since you have less exercises for them also, just to keep that balance there.

So, how about this:

Deadlifts
Leg curls
Glute ham raises
What else?

Hyperextensions and good mornings are pretty much the same thing. And if I'm doing deadlifts, their is no reason to do 1 single leg deadlifts...It seems a little repetitive, or am i not seeing this right? Also, deadlifts hit your lower back as well, so doing good mornings or hypers could be a bit much...No?

Originally Posted by someguy1984

So, how about this:

Deadlifts
Leg curls
Glute ham raises
What else?

Hyperextensions and good mornings are pretty much the same thing. And if I'm doing deadlifts, their is no reason to do 1 single leg deadlifts...It seems a little repetitive, or am i not seeing this right? Also, deadlifts hit your lower back as well, so doing good mornings or hypers could be a bit much...No?

Well, its much the same as doing lunges and squats really. They're both quad heavy movements, the only difference being that one is unilateral and the other is bilateral.

I would much more highly reccomend single leg RDLs than leg curls personally.

A typical lower pull day for me on my last program would be:

Deadlifts - 6x3
Single Leg Deadlifts - 4x7
Hyperextensions - 3x14

And a push:

Squats - 6x3
Split Squats - 4x7
Leg Extensions - 3x14

They're similar movements, but a good mix of unilateral and bilateral is a good plan. Plus they aren't IDENTICAL movements. Back squats and front squats in a session would likely be too similar. As would deadlifts and romanian deadlifts for example.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Well, its much the same as doing lunges and squats really. They're both quad heavy movements, the only difference being that one is unilateral and the other is bilateral.

I would much more highly reccomend single leg RDLs than leg curls personally.

A typical lower pull day for me on my last program would be:

Deadlifts - 6x3
Single Leg Deadlifts - 4x7
Hyperextensions - 3x14

And a push:

Squats - 6x3
Split Squats - 4x7
Leg Extensions - 3x14

They're similar movements, but a good mix of unilateral and bilateral is a good plan. Plus they aren't IDENTICAL movements. Back squats and front squats in a session would likely be too similar. As would deadlifts and romanian deadlifts for example.

Wow, 6 sets and 3 reps for squats. You must be doing some heavy weight.

How big are you by the way? Height/weight?

I like those exercises, i just might start doing them.

I like to do squats until about 7 or so. I really don't feel like i workout much doing only 3 reps and resting...(Maybe it's just me) Also, i want to build a bit more stamina for the military. I don't want to fatigue on anything right away. I'm already good with running/push ups, but regardless of the heavy weight i do, 3 reps of anything makes me feel lazy.

By the way, i understand your doing a total of 18 reps which isn't bad. It's just the concept of resting for a minute or two and performing the other reps...

Originally Posted by someguy1984

Wow, 6 sets and 3 reps for squats. You must be doing some heavy weight.

How big are you by the way? Height/weight?

I like those exercises, i just might start doing them.

I like to do squats until about 7 or so. I really don't feel like i workout much doing only 3 reps and resting...(Maybe it's just me) Also, i want to build a bit more stamina for the military. I don't want to fatigue on anything right away. I'm already good with running/push ups, but regardless of the heavy weight i do, 3 reps of anything makes me feel lazy.

By the way, i understand your doing a total of 18 reps which isn't bad. It's just the concept of resting for a minute or two and performing the other reps...

Its only because im focusing on building strength right now. Trust me, 6x3 is pretty damned brutal if you're really going for the intensity, haha. Leg work especially.

I'm stunningly average at 5'9" 168lbs these days. Heaviest i've ever been was 5'9" 200lbs. Huge size isn't really what im going for anymore so i haven't really been basing my training around it.

You might want to look into antagonistic supersetting or fullbody workouts if your going for stamina and work capacity and stuff. Doing a fullbody workout with two antagonistic supersets did wonders for my conditioning.

Supersetting Squats and Pullups was crazy.

Other than that if you want to go the upper/lower route would be to cycle high volume and high intensity workouts like we've said already in this thread.

5x5 and 4x10 are particularly brutal.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

You might want to look i to antagonistic supersetting or fullbody workouts if your going for stamina and work capacity and stuff. Doing a fullbody workout with two antagonistic supersets did wonders for my conditioning.

Supersetting Squats and Pullups was crazy.
5x5 and 4x10 are particularly brutal.

Hmm, this sounds interesting. Do you have a routine i could possibly follow? (Sorry to take away your time and ask) I know it must be annoying...

I just don't know what antagonistic super setting is.

Also, can you build muscle doing a routine like this? I plan on trying to eat a bit more and build muscle slowly doing this. Is it possible? I'm 5'7 148lbs. I'm happy with my weight, but i think with a little more muscle i would look better.

The stamina is just something i know will be useful in the military. So, i should start doing something that involves this...(I leave in 30days)

Ha ,Gaz until you posted that I thought I was the only person to ever have done squats and pullups supersets.
Talk about getting some strange looks in the gym!

I've done that too. It's convenient - you're right there!

Originally Posted by someguy1984

Hmm, this sounds interesting. Do you have a routine i could possibly follow? (Sorry to take away your time and ask) I know it must be annoying...

I just don't know what antagonistic super setting is.

Also, can you build muscle doing a routine like this? I plan on trying to eat a bit more and build muscle slowly doing this. Is it possible? I'm 5'7 148lbs. I'm happy with my weight, but i think with a little more muscle i would look better.

The stamina is just something i know will be useful in the military. So, i should start doing something that involves this...(I leave in 30days)

Antagonistic just means that the movements work against eachother. Its not a perfect name for them but its what i call them, haha.

Basically, take two movements that are completely different to eachother and use almost none of the same muscle groups, then do them alternately either with rest or without.

This will take a lot of effort on the part of your body to move blood/oxygen/nutrients between the two areas. Not to mention you are stimulating a lot of muscle this way.

You can absolutely put muscle on this way assuming your diet is on par and you're eating enough calories. Don't worry about my time, i'm here to help, lol.

Simple program (off the top of my head) would be:

Workout A:

1a) Squats
+
1b) Pullups

2a) Lunges
+
2b) Dumbell Rows


Workout B:

1a) Deadlifts
+
1b) Bench Press

2a) Single Leg Deadlifts
+
2b) Singe Arm Overhead Press

***

Repeat them 3x a week, so your two week cycle would look like (A/B/A, B/A/B)

Rep Ranges would be the following :

Monday -
Superset 1 = 5x5
Superset 2 = 4x10

Wednesday -
Superset 1 = 5x5
Superset 2 = 4x10

Friday -
Supersets 1 + 2 = 2x8

***

Friday would also be the day to do accessory work like grip, you could also do cardio on this day. Core you should spread throughout the week.

This is basically a variation on a program i wrote for my blog:

Strength, Dedication, Ambition: Program : SDA1 - Fullbody Supersets

This is how interpret the workout:

Workout A (Monday)

1a) Squats 5x5 superset
+
1b) Pullups

--------------------

2a) Lunges 4x10 superset
+
2b) Dumbell Rows

Workout B: (Wednesday)

1a) Deadlifts 5x5 superset
+
1b) Bench Press

-------------------------

2a) Single Leg Deadlifts 4x10 superset
+
2b) Singe Arm Overhead Press

Friday, which would be workout A?


1a) Squats 2x8 superset
+
1b) Pullups

-------------------

2a) Lunges 2x8 superset
+
2b) Dumbell Rows

Then, i could do some posterior, lateral, or anterior work? Maybe some fly's? Whatever i feel desirable i guess?

Also, on Tuesday and Wednesday could i do cardio for 15mins along with abs? (For core) Weekends off.

Do i have this right?

Yup, spot on.

For week two the workouts would switch around. So monday and friday week 2 would be B, and wednesday would be A.

So long as you go A/B/A/B/A/B youll hit everything properly.

And yeah, on the friday go nuts with extra stuff as you see you need it. Put cardio and abs in where you see fit, but try and keep them on your regular workout days so you can get as much rest days in as possible. Cardio monday and wednesday would be fine really.

For the supersets you can either rest after both exercises, or in between exercises:

Squat
Pullup
Rest

or

Squat
Rest
Pullup
Rest

Its up to you. I prefer the second one myself, but see how you go.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Yup, spot on.

For week two the workouts would switch around. So monday and friday week 2 would be B, and wednesday would be A.

So long as you go A/B/A/B/A/B youll hit everything properly.

And yeah, on the friday go nuts with extra stuff as you see you need it. Put cardio and abs in where you see fit, but try and keep them on your regular workout days so you can get as much rest days in as possible. Cardio monday and wednesday would be fine really.

For the supersets you can either rest after both exercises, or in between exercises:

Squat
Pullup
Rest

or

Squat
Rest
Pullup
Rest

Its up to you. I prefer the second one myself, but see how you go.

Thanks a lot for the advice man.

By the way, what kind of workout would this be considered? Stamina, muscle building?

Also, it's ok to do cardio on workout days?

Another thing, not going over 60mins for a workout would be optimal? Correct?

Originally Posted by vader

Ha ,Gaz until you posted that I thought I was the only person to ever have done squats and pullups supersets.
Talk about getting some strange looks in the gym!

Screw strange looks. Most people who give them will do 20 sets of bench and go home.

Today i was doing one arm barbell deadlifts. Nuff said :P

Originally Posted by someguy1984

Thanks a lot for the advice man.

By the way, what kind of workout would this be considered? Stamina, muscle building?

Also, it's ok to do cardio on workout days?

Another thing, not going over 60mins for a workout would be optimal? Correct?

No worries, dude. You got a journal? Would be interesting to see your progress!

I guess the workout would be considered a strength routine if you're gonna add weight to the bar, a size routine if you're eating a lot, and a stamina workout if you concentrate on reducing rest intervals, lol. Take the RIs down by 15 seconds every two weeks or something.

But seriously, it doesnt really matter what you'd classify it as. It'll work towards your goals and thats the long and short of it.

60 minutes is generally a good time limit for working out. I try and keep mine between 45 and 90 minutes max. Thats with a warmup, warmdown, cardio, and core all included.

Sure it's okay to do cv on workout days, just do it afterwards and limit it to 15 minutes for steady state, or if you're doing HIIT/Intervals youll likely only be doing 5 minutes anyways.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

No worries, dude. You got a journal? Would be interesting to see your progress!

I guess the workout would be considered a strength routine if you're gonna add weight to the bar, a size routine if you're eating a lot, and a stamina workout if you concentrate on reducing rest intervals, lol. Take the RIs down by 15 seconds every two weeks or something.

But seriously, it doesnt really matter what you'd classify it as. It'll work towards your goals and thats the long and short of it.

60 minutes is generally a good time limit for working out. I try and keep mine between 45 and 90 minutes max. Thats with a warmup, warmdown, cardio, and core all included.

Sure it's okay to do cv on workout days, just do it afterwards and limit it to 15 minutes for steady state, or if you're doing HIIT/Intervals youll likely only be doing 5 minutes anyways.

Maybe it would be best to do my cardio on non workout days.

I say this, because i run for 1.5 miles at 8 speed on the treadmill. Towards the end i start bumping the speed up a bit.

Perhaps this wouldn't be a good idea after weight training? Seems like i would be pretty tired, lol...

By the way, i run like this because it's over achievement for my PT qualification requirement.

Originally Posted by someguy1984

Maybe it would be best to do my cardio on non workout days.

I say this, because i run for 1.5 miles at 8 speed on the treadmill. Towards the end i start bumping the speed up a bit.

Perhaps this wouldn't be a good idea after weight training? Seems like i would be pretty tired, lol...

By the way, i run like this because it's over achievement for my PT qualification requirement.

Try it and see, you might be alright. Certainly put one of those running sessions on friday, though. The more rest days the better, obviously!

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Try it and see, you might be alright. Certainly put one of those running sessions on friday, though. The more rest days the better, obviously!

Alright, sounds good.

Thanks again for all your help!

So, should i scrap my routine and go with yours?

Or, do you think my other routine is decent? (This is just out of curiosity)

Originally Posted by someguy1984

Alright, sounds good.

Thanks again for all your help!

So, should i scrap my routine and go with yours?

Or, do you think my other routine is decent? (This is just out of curiosity)

Not a problem.

Can't really pass judgement on the other one because we didn't really get too far with it. That split can work, but the exercises were a bit here and there, and there wasn't any periodization yet, lol.

Kinda like choosing between a biscuit and half a biscuit. They're both just as nice, but why would you eat only half a biscuit?

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Kinda like choosing between a biscuit and half a biscuit. They're both just as nice, but why would you eat only half a biscuit?

Less calories? lol

Well, if i wanted to actually lift 4 days a week, is their a way to do it? We don't have to get into another routine, but i was just looking at the alternative to fixing the other i made.

I like your routine, but i feel like i wouldn't be doing enough and i don't know where i would be doing biceps/triceps. I like incorporating those into my routine, because it's fun and doesn't hurt, you know?

I feel like I'm not hitting enough muscle groups, but maybe I'm wrong?

It just seems odd to throw in all the random stuff you missed on Friday. I wouldn't even be able to fit everything in.

Another thing. I believe pull ups/chin ups are great, but i think you can do other machines that seem to target these specific areas better. I think it's because sometimes i may alter from when doing pull ups, but the machines force you to use the correct movement. My gym has this machine you pull down and you can feel it strong in your back and lats. It has weights on both sides, so it's like using free weights. (One arm cannot be dominant) I was thinking about switching to those, or at least doing them...It feels like a better workout.

Machines do not force you to do the correct movement - they force you to move the way the machine works - which may not be how the body was designed.

I do very few direct bicep movements - and my pipes are pretty good for an old lady!

There is room for concentration work though - and machines can be helpful for that.

How about this - do 5x5 heavy weighted chins (shoulder-width or narrower, never wider than that), then the unilateral pulldown you mentioned for 3x8? Do them alternating arms, like your crawling up a wall. I call 'em spidermans and they work like a hot damn as a "second" movement, for all the reasons you mention.

Originally Posted by someguy1984

I like your routine, but i feel like i wouldn't be doing enough and i don't know where i would be doing biceps/triceps. I like incorporating those into my routine, because it's fun and doesn't hurt, you know?

I feel like I'm not hitting enough muscle groups, but maybe I'm wrong?

It just seems odd to throw in all the random stuff you missed on Friday. I wouldn't even be able to fit everything in.

1 - Stimulate, not annihilate. Most people do TOO much, and that hinders their gains. You don't have to kill yourself in the gym to see results. Working very hard is enough. I do like 3 compound exercises every gym session, no isolation, im usually in and out in under 60 minutes, and i have no problem making progress. I am shockingly average in terms of ability and genetics.

2 - You are hitting all the muscle groups with that exercise selection. They are all big compound movements. You could add more, but again see the first point.

3 - Its not a case of random stuff, or stuff you missed, it's about accessory work towards your goals, or stuff that you need to work on. Grip work, core work, additional flexibility, power work/plyometrics, a few isolations for lagging body parts...im not saying do ALL of these on friday, just something you feel needs additional attention.

4 - Arm work is fun, but kinda pointless in terms of 80-90% of people. Strongmen do a lot of bicep stuff to strengthen bicep tendons because its a frequently injured area. Bodybuilders do a lot of arm work because they are genetic freaks and stuff works for them that doesn't work for anybody else.

5 - Built covered the machine stuff

Originally Posted by Gazhole

1 - Stimulate, not annihilate. Most people do TOO much, and that hinders their gains. You don't have to kill yourself in the gym to see results. Working very hard is enough. I do like 3 compound exercises every gym session, no isolation, im usually in and out in under 60 minutes, and i have no problem making progress. I am shockingly average in terms of ability and genetics.

2 - You are hitting all the muscle groups with that exercise selection. They are all big compound movements. You could add more, but again see the first point.

3 - Its not a case of random stuff, or stuff you missed, it's about accessory work towards your goals, or stuff that you need to work on. Grip work, core work, additional flexibility, power work/plyometrics, a few isolations for lagging body parts...im not saying do ALL of these on friday, just something you feel needs additional attention.

4 - Arm work is fun, but kinda pointless in terms of 80-90% of people. Strongmen do a lot of bicep stuff to strengthen bicep tendons because its a frequently injured area. Bodybuilders do a lot of arm work because they are genetic freaks and stuff works for them that doesn't work for anybody else.

5 - Built covered the machine stuff

Gotcha, i think i understand this much more.

So, for the 5x5 days i assume I'm using very heavy weight, but trying to keep good form. How much weight of my 1RM should i do?

Also, can i substitute BB row instead of Dumbbell row? I tend to feel those a bit more.

Also, i looked over the routine again and it does hit every body part with big compounds...Maybe i could throw in calves on squat day, biceps on deadlift day and triceps for Friday? Doesn't seem like overkill, right? (This would create less work for Friday and allow me to do some fly's and grip/forearm work)