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God or Evolution
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Rich46yo said:Did anybody ever entertain the notion that we "create God" and "heaven" out of fear of the unknown of death? Or, to comfort us in witness to the inhumanities of humanity?
And maybe we invented Hell in order to keep a majority of the unwashed masses in decent social order. Sort of like a chimpanzee troop kicking out the one jagoff chimp that keeps fucking up. And while I'm at it with chimps did you know we share 97% of the same DNA with chimps? The reason for that is we both branched off from a common ancestor 6 millions years ago on the plains of east central Africa. Wheres that in your Adam and Eve book?
Scientists recently found the remains of a human ancestor, in the horn of Africa, thats at least 4 million years old. How long ago was Adam and Eve?
And why would it matter, in terms of human interaction, if there even was a heaven or hell? A God or not? What is the relevance? Who gives a shit? The fables behind creationism, at least to me, are the ultimate expression of human arrogance. Right up there with the pope thinking he's got a personal bee-line right to God that none of the rest of us have. When the Bible was written people thought the earth was flat, mermaids and monsters roamed the sea's, the earth was the center of the universe, the stars were the fires of heaven,humans were lucky to live to 40yo, and wannabee scientists were burned at the stake. But gee, why should we question the Bible?
Woman from a mans rib? Whats that about? What are you fucking crazy?...............your loving Uncle..........Uncle Rich
Hi Rich,
You raise some good points and questions.
Too many "just accept" what they either hear and/or are told and do not check things out for themselves from all perspectives objectively. Many are just like the mice that run and run and run and run in that little cage their whole life... and do not see anything else that life does have to offer.
Take Care, John H.
Only a fool would think the Earth was created in seven days.
Mr_Snafu said:
Actually, only a fool would claim to KNOW or discount what did or did not happen.
Everything Rich said is a matter of opinion...the usual atheistic response... nothing groundbreaking was said here, folks.
I don't think evolution and god are mutually exclusive. I think that anyone believing that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is deluding himself. Consider: Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, a God who directs, "though shalt not kill" then proceeds to smite entire villages leaving no person, child or creature alive, a prince of peace who orders his disciples to bring his enemies before him in order to slay them. I think it's time to go upside god's head. Incidentally, I do admire some of the teachings of Christ.
It is of interest that to some of you true believers, evolution is a fiction yet Darwinian selection is a grand old system for society. No contradiction there. After all, Christ implored his followers to permit the weeding out of the weak...every man for himself...let the strong flourish.
Also, regarding the scientific validity of some of the fairy tales in the Bible, that is also a crock. Please show me the scientific foundation and validity for angels, walking on water, changing water to wine, etc. You see what you want to see.
Creationism and popular religion are comforting self delusions in a terrible, beautiful world.
It is of interest that to some of you true believers, evolution is a fiction yet Darwinian selection is a grand old system for society. No contradiction there. After all, Christ implored his followers to permit the weeding out of the weak...every man for himself...let the strong flourish.
Also, regarding the scientific validity of some of the fairy tales in the Bible, that is also a crock. Please show me the scientific foundation and validity for angels, walking on water, changing water to wine, etc. You see what you want to see.
Creationism and popular religion are comforting self delusions in a terrible, beautiful world.
Read the bible and ye shall see the truth.
See, this is what I'm talking about. What is truth?..hahaha I don't think truth is the 5000 year old tales of goatherders refined by a priestly caste and portrayed as the autoritative inerrant word of God. These are creations of man for practical knowledge(for 5000 years ago) and control of the gen. populace.Maynard Keenan said:
I'm a firm believer in life before death. That has meaning for me. Promises of glory in heaven after I'm dead smacks of resounding bullshit. Just keep shoveling shit your whole miserable life and you'll be rewarded on your deathbed with eternal life. What a deal.
Decker said:
Hi Decker,
Life IS TO BE ENJOYED AND UNDERSTOOD AND APPRECIATED AND LIVED not throddled or strangled which is what "religion" does all the time.
The Bible is a collection of literature - short stories, poems, prose, etc. WRITTEN BY MEN - over 40 and over a long period of time each with their own viewpoint. God - the real one and truthful one - SPEAKS FOR HIMSELF AND HIMSELF. He never has others speak for Him or put words into His mouth.
Take Care, John H.
Hey im a committed person to friends and family. Just caught my wife cheating on me so im starting to question it myself lately. It seems good people finish last in this world. (why would that be)Decker said:
I find it comical how people here are talking so matter-of-factly.
By all means.. state what you believe, but don't for a second assume that you know the absolute truth.. what God would & would not do, what the Bible is or isn't, or suggest that 80% of the world is dillusional, believing in, as one said, 'bullshit'.
No one KNOWS anything, this is a matter of belief... that includes atheism.
Also, just because you don't believe in something, putting down someone else because of it is ridiculous. I've seen John H. several times ask people not to offend him regarding certain subjects.. children, his service, etc.. yet when it comes to religion, he has no problem ripping into many people's most charished beliefs. Hypocrisy, John H.
By all means.. state what you believe, but don't for a second assume that you know the absolute truth.. what God would & would not do, what the Bible is or isn't, or suggest that 80% of the world is dillusional, believing in, as one said, 'bullshit'.
No one KNOWS anything, this is a matter of belief... that includes atheism.
Also, just because you don't believe in something, putting down someone else because of it is ridiculous. I've seen John H. several times ask people not to offend him regarding certain subjects.. children, his service, etc.. yet when it comes to religion, he has no problem ripping into many people's most charished beliefs. Hypocrisy, John H.
Thanks I appreciate it.Decker said:
I told you what I believe in...life before death. Not some decadent religion whose life denying focus hits payoff after you croak. Who said anything about absolute truth. When it comes to questions of ontology, I don't roll over for fairy tales b/c they assuage my everpresent existential discomfort, i.e., I don't bullshit myself to feel better.busyLivin said:
You are wrong. We humans know a lot of things...look at science, philosophy, hell even rhetorical debate is a useful knowledge...I think so anyway.
Maynard Keenan said:
Hi Maynard,
That is always tough. Yes, you can look to yourself but you also need to look at the WHOLE picture too. It just could be that she has found someone else and that has absolutely nothing to do with you at all - it just could be. It does happen. YOU may have had absolutely nothing to do with it at all. I agree good people do seem to "finish last" but I can tell you I would never change being a good person because of that because a good person knows what is good and what is not. If you try (meaning anyone here) to "live up to" the "standards of this world" you would be very wrong because much of those "standards" are based on pure bull and not at all true or right.
People who REALLY LOVE AND APPRECIATE you for you will always BE. Those that are against you you would want to be away from anyway. It is a waste of your precious time here on this earth to try to "change" what is not meant to be. You can love someone but you can not make them love you if they really do not. And you would not want that anyway.
There are many people out there that will truly care about you. Focus on that.
Take Care, John H.
LW83 said:What? you mean like 77 virgins? O wait, that's not christianity. My bad. I get the two confused sometimes.
Hi Luke,
There is not a whole hell of a lot of difference. Insanity is insanity. You ARE NOT CONFUSED AT ALL.
Take Care, John H.
I know you meant that. I was awkwardly making the point that we have knowledge which can, in spite of empirical proof--something much like the quandry string theory faces for example-- provide us with a reasonable foundation for making certain claims regarding our origins. Granted, as far as epistemology goes, these discussions, for the moment, are limited to the province of reasoned debate---like you'd said, no true scientific proof. I agree with you. But the poll did state that the 'Bible will never be wrong' and I think that's an affront to any thinking person.... I mean how do you know? B/c the bible says so is circular.busyLivin said:
busyLivin said:
Hi Busy,
You would NEVER hear from me on this IF IT WERE NOT FOR "RELIGION" being after me and those of the same. Here's the thing: if you have someone standing in front of you threatening you personally you will defend yourself. I am only doing that very same thing. I am responding to what "RELIGION" does and is doing. And what they are doing is NOT based on fact at all.
If you "choose" to "believe" in whatever that is entirely up to you. BUT when those "beliefs" of yours effect me in any way especially in any forceful manner which is what "religion" does it IS a direct threat to me and my person and my absolute right to my life and living. If someone wants to "believe" something that is entirely up to them and I have no problem with it. But when they actively approach me with that and I find what they are saying is wrong and I tell them about that and they still threaten me I will defend myself always against those threats in whatever fashion or mode they come in.
"Cherished beliefs" MUST ALWAYS BE TRUTHFUL AND ACCURATE AND HONEST. To just "believe" means nothing and is falsehood. To believe" that is fine FOR YOU but when YOU FORCE yourself on to others that is where the line is crossed and anyone would have a absolute right to defend themselves in whatever manner would be appropriate.
For others - who do NOT know me in any fashion to attempt to smear me by saying that I abuse children (which IS A TOTAL LIE and I WOULD NEVER NOR WOULD I EVER CONDONE IN ANY MANNER BY ANYONE!!!!) and to question my service to my country which I did honorably under extreme war conditions - damn straight I will say something!!!! And RIGHTLY SO.
If you THREATEN ME OR ATTACK ME OR ATTEMPT TO (meaning anyone here) I will defend myself. I would expect that anyone would because that is a basic thing in life to defend oneself. It is NOT hypocrisy at all.
I do see a lot of dillusion in this world especially with regard to "religioius belief". There is evidence of it everywhere. People are desperate and desperate people do desperate things even when it involes their own self-destruction. There are a lot of very unhappy people in this world and they are even willing to grasp at anything - regardless of any actual truthfullness - to gain some kind of "relief"... "Religion" PREYS on these people.
Take Care, John H.
how do we know what the truth is, how we supposed to know what god wants from us and what god said to us.... the kuran and bible and other hole books carry gods words but how we supposed to interped it corectly if we dont realy under stand it... see in my opinion we miss understood god because we dont understand god, because we aint gods we're only human.... we cant understand dogs... why ....because we aint dogs.....
we cant undertands cat why?.... because we aint cats
peace and love hehe
7-11
we cant undertands cat why?.... because we aint cats
peace and love hehe
7-11
Thanks John. The fact is I did catch her cheating and with a very unattractive scrawny little weasel? I dont get it and she calls everynight crying on my voice mail. I do love her more then anything. We also have an adorable 2 1/2 year old son together. He was also born deaf. Basically I put every pain or hurt into the gym. She really hurt me though. Married 4 1/2 years. Whats funny is she was so controlling and possesive it wasnt even funny. Now I think I know why.John H. said:
seven11 said:
Hi Seven,
You are right actually.
"Truth"? It is something we all have to search for but hopefully we all will do that honestly and sincerely and accurately - it is something you do lifelong. Many times the "truth" surrounds us and we are so "into" our searching we do not see the woods for the trees. In Nature there is a LOT of truth but most just ignore the messages that surround us all. Or even feel they are not truthful when in fact they are and even subtle (sounds like "suttle").
BEING a good person inside and treating others as you would want others to treat you is a big part of things. As long as each of us MIStreat we can expect to be MIStreated.
The Koran, The Bible, etc. - they are all MANS thoughts and words written down in an effort to answer the "UNanswerable". MANS attempt. I feel God is around us all all the time in Nature and the Natural world but most of us completely ignore the messages there. The American Indians were very in tune with Nature and the Natural World and understood its importance and meaning to life and living. Look what we did to them.
Take Care, John H.
Maynard Keenan said:
Hi Maynard,
First, the most helpful thing you can do IS working your ass off in the gym BECAUSE this will help you get the anger out of you and put that energy to GOOD use - DEVELOPING YOURSELF EVEN BETTER. The end result of that is YOU WILL GET EVEN BETTER health-wise overall.
Second, this helps you to clear your head and see things AS THEY REALLY ARE. You can NOT force someone to love you. If they do not they will not. Even if YOU love THEM to "pieces". It could be that THAT ALONE might be something that will drive them away. Everyone is different. People react differently to everything. I know this - you have a son you LOVE. He WILL KNOW THAT FOR SURE no matter what happens between you and your wife.
You can try to give your wife a chance and see what the problems may be - look at ALL sides of it HONESTLY. Hear what she might be saying to you and see if there is any truth to it. BE HONEST. She also may be someone who wants everything HER way or no way. Certainly SHE has put the seed of doubt about herself in your mind now by HER actions.
As for HER controlling that IS ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD. Some of that is ok but too much IS TOO MUCH and something you can NOT live with - nor your son.
THINK HARD about it ALL from ALL sides of it. It could be that you will have to move on. But you son will always BE your son and he will love you as you love him - he will know that because you will let him KNOW that. Don't try to force the issue - HE WILL SEE things for what they really are HIMSELF. Just make damn sure he knows you love him.
Take Care, John H.
Thanks for the advice. It has been a very difficult past 2 months. If she would stop calling me crying it would be easier. Cause every couple weeks I break and I go sleep with her and kick myself after. Another bad thing is I think shes one of the hottest women I have ever seen too. (sucks bad)John H. said:
i agree with u 100% on that John
There are infinite gods who created the evolution of new gods, it's a vicious cycle, humans will one day be gods and create universes and dimensions of dementia just as our creator has done, maybe it'll just be a virtual world of electrons, protons and neutrons all neatly arranged to form different forces, energies, shapes and forms but wait isn't that the way it is now?
Maynard Keenan said:
Hi Maynard,
I DO understand. Being "...one of the hottest women..." (at least physically) is not the WHOLE package. You want someone who is good at heart and soul, all else follows.
If she is playing you she is. You are going to have to figure out if that is true or not because you do not want your life made more miserable. It is not an easy thing to do many times. Sometimes time can help and sometimes it can be harmful too.
KEEP WORKING OUT DAMN HARD though because that WILL KEEP YOU ON TRACK. And will help you make good decisions.
HANG IN THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Take Care, John H.