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Which one is a more anabolic hormone?

sword-

Holden Caulfield
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Growth Hormone (GH) or Testosterone?

I didn't know where to put this so I put it here. I'm a natural, but I'm sure someone who is well versed in biochemisty, especially pertaining to human performance, would know this.

I forgot this, and if anyone can back this up by science I would appreciate it as well, but for us bodybuilders who are constantly trying to grow and shape our muscles, which one of these hormones in our body produces the most anabolic responses in our bodies? I remember someone saying that GH is more anabolic but I cannot remember. Discuss.
 
I can not really answere your question as I don't do if HGH is anabolic or not. I can tell you that it is not androgenic. Testosterone is about 50 / 50 androgenic and anabolic.

Now if you want the most bahg for your buck, stay with test as it's so much cheaper and will get the job done.


Tough
 
Testosterone has a potent anabolic action on skeletal muscle cells. Growth hormone supports that anabolic action.

Insulin is many-fold more anabolic than testosterone. When controlled properly, otherwise its poorly anabolic (promote lipogenesis and energy storage rather than lipolysis and energy production).

Cool shit, insulin. If you know what you're doing with it.

Hint for the designer crowd wondering by: lipid pairs control insulinogenic response at the gene level and also mediate insulin's anabolic action via regulation of RXR, LXR FXR, plus a wee bit of PPAR..

Molecular biology - its whats for dinner.
 
insulin...i would never of thought, but i would never mess with the stuff for i have heard people getting really fucked up from it...maybe they were just ill informed but just seems to risky
 
Trouble said:
Cool shit, insulin. If you know what you're doing with it.
Very dangerous also if you don't know what you're doing!
 
You're not quite picking up on my meaning.

Natural production and release of insulin can be optimized *in how it acts on muscle cells* to maximize its anabolic properties. This is regulated in part by natural lipids (fatty acids released from liver and adipose tissue, dietary fats, animal and plant steroids, and fat soluble vitamins). You play your insulin cards right, and you can go a long way with the promotion of anabolic action from your natural production of insulin. Jack it the wrong way, you got problems.
 
Trouble, do you have any literature on these hormones, or how you can manipulate these levels naturally?

I know if you time your nutrition properly you can benifit from insulin spikes obviously, but I wanted to know other stuff.
 
Trouble said:
You're not quite picking up on my meaning.

Natural production and release of insulin can be optimized *in how it acts on muscle cells* to maximize its anabolic properties. This is regulated in part by natural lipids (fatty acids released from liver and adipose tissue, dietary fats, animal and plant steroids, and fat soluble vitamins). You play your insulin cards right, and you can go a long way with the promotion of anabolic action from your natural production of insulin. Jack it the wrong way, you got problems.


so how would one go about using insulin in the right way? got any links?
 
dumbdumbdinkel3 said:
so how would one go about using insulin in the right way? got any links?

Not causing unnecessay insulin spikes.

Consuming high GI carbs post workout to cause a spike.

I'm sure trouble will name a lot, but most of the insulin stuff deals with how you time your nutrition around a workout.
 
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Not the right section for this discussion, sorry.

The AAS boyz can benefit from optimizing glucose metabolism (in other words, insulin does its job and with the help of dietary lipids and arachidonic acid, can promote both muscle cell hypertrophy and angiogenesis (suppport matrix formation and function). Also can be used to manipulate adipose cells and their support matrix for fat loss.

Some anabolic steroids help, some make it worse when the wrong fats are present.

Twiddle with the molecular controls, you can reduce both the sides from most AAS compounds and long term negative effects, while optimizing the resulting jumps in strength and hypertrophy...and keep the gains. Its what we call factor-dependent and rate-limiting action.

Gap between what we know through biomedical research and what we know through practical experience is closing.
 
Trouble said:
Insulin is many-fold more anabolic than testosterone. When controlled properly, otherwise its poorly anabolic (promote lipogenesis and energy storage rather than lipolysis and energy production).
Just to clarify, Lipogenesis is anabolic, not lipolysis. Insulin can not promote energy production over energy storage. It is strictly anabolic, which includes the sythesis of glycogen and fat.
 
Ive been cautioned about an ins/tren/HGH stack but am in my mid 40's and really want to max the beni's from an HGH tren stack.

Without killing me on this topic ... what are your thoughts?
 
Pirate is correct. These terms can be confusing.

Anabolic typically means building up. Catabolic refers to tearing down or reducing in size. In the strength training world, we refer to anabolic state as conditions that engender muscle growth, that is, an energy needs are met and amino acids are built up into proteins.

Lipolysis and lipogensis are opposite states of fatty acid breakdown and buildup, respectively. Typically, in strength training, we qre concerned when excess energy supply is present and can be stored directly as far in adipose tissue or from excess glucose conversion to fatty acids (classical biochemical definition of lip ogenesis) than thence to storage in adipose tissue.

BC, will you please start a new thread with your question. This thread is rapidly drifting off track (matupulation)...*delicate snort*....what do you mean, 'without killing you'?

You mean...without drowning you in facts?
 
Not trying to get off topic. just interested in HGH and saw that it was part of this thread's topic.

I'm looking to stack HGH anf Ins (or just a tren/HGH stack timed with my diet to max natural Ins peek cycles) with tren so you see where my interest lies.

I'm also interested in HGH for the increase in synaptic nerve generation and the resulting increased memory retention. I am sure that is not a beni normally associated with test.
 
I wouldn't run GH without test if muscular increases were sought.
 
BoneCrusher said:
I'm also interested in HGH for the increase in synaptic nerve generation and the resulting increased memory retention. I am sure that is not a beni normally associated with test.

If thats what you're after, I'd be looking at ALCAR and K-R-ALA first and then taking a hard look at gGH induction (agonists). Easy way to do is with GABA, small doses throughout the day.

Adding test, in order to get maximum benefit out of hGH is not going to be neuroprotective for brain tissue and will downregulate NMDA release (important for memory) and carnitine metabolism (energy for mental focus, since coding/decoding processes are the basis for memory formation).

Might want to take a look at a few other nootropics.

Oh goodie, now *I* have drifted off-topic.
 
Pirate! said:
It is strictly anabolic
I need to correct myself. Insulin does activate extracellular lipoprotein lipase, which is catabolic. So, I shouldn't have said Insulin is strictly anabolic.
 
sword- said:
Not causing unnecessay insulin spikes.

Consuming high GI carbs post workout to cause a spike.

I'm sure trouble will name a lot, but most of the insulin stuff deals with how you time your nutrition around a workout.
post workout i consume 50g whey, 30g dextrose, 30g maltodextrin and a ripe banana, then sometimes about an hour later i will start feeling jittery and a bit faint, and my body (not my stomach, but more my actual body/muscles, bones) will just feel like it needs feeding! if this ever happens i normally have to eat and eat and eat before it goes away! it also tends to happen more when i'm on steroids, but this may not be related

firstly, what is happening? are my insulin levels crashing due to the insulin spike of my PWO shake? if so is this in any way detrimental?

secondly, how can i prevent this from happening? less dextrose in PWO shake? eat my PPWO meal sooner?
 
Cool shit, insulin. If you know what you're doing with it.


Are you talking about the insulin you inject or naturally produced insulin? What do you do with injectible insulin?
 
Been told that a small amount of insulin will cause an HGH to be more effective in creating new muscle mass so that would be my intented use ...
 
Just out of interest, does anyone know of insulun being run alone successfully?
 
BoneCrusher said:
Been told that a small amount of insulin will cause an HGH to be more effective in creating new muscle mass so that would be my intented use ...
I wouldn't recommend this. Insulin should only be used for a short period, if at all, by a non-diabetic. GH is best used for a long period of time.

If you want to use something that works with GH, consider testosterone and T3.

does anyone know of insulun being run alone successfully
Basically, you shoot it when you have your post work out shake. If you don't know what you are doing, you could go into a hypoglycemic coma and get brain damage and/or die.
 
Pirate! said:
Basically, you shoot it when you have your post work out shake. If you don't know what you are doing, you could go into a hypoglycemic coma and get brain damage and/or die.
but if you did know what you were doing, it would be pretty safe?
 
Trouble, I thought the latest research suggest Insulin's role is more anticatabolic to muscle than it is Anabolic. Bryan Haycock has an article on it, and from the research on post-workout nutrition, carbs dont seem to have any anabolic property, although w/ protein it seems to have a synergystic effect of increasing protein synthesis more than just protein by itself.

What is your opinion of just using excess protein for glucose production via gluconeogenesis. This will raise insulin levels above basal levels, which from what I understand,. it doesnt take much insulin to realize it's full potential. I believe Bodyfx uses gluconeogenesis from excess protein during cutting and even bulking, w/ less fat gain than tradition muscle building programs.

In addition, what do you think of Oliver Starrs insulin program, which does the same thing, excess protein (approx. 600g a day) almost no carbs and some fat, to generate glucose and hypertrophy w/ minimal fat. He claims over 20lbs of muscle in a month or so.
 
but if you did know what you were doing, it would be pretty safe?
The short terms risk are less if you know how to manage it. There are almost always long term risks using exogonous hormones.
 
Never shoot insulin as an AAS. Its a global player in tissues, and a bolus effect ain't what you're after. Why do you think the medical technology folks developed pumps for diabetics?

Insulin plays a role in the direct regulation (at the cellular receptor level) in both glucocorticoid and mineralcorticoid function - some of the most important hormones in the body.

More importantly, it plays an leading role in in the control of cholesterol biosynthesis in liver, and through it, production of bile acids, retinoids, and the precurors for fat soluble vitamins..and steroids.

Seventy percent of your cellular energy is driven by fatty acids (FA). The hormone that is fundamentally involved in FA synthesis, its storage in various tissues and its release is insulin.

Fatty acids, you want them babies in control. You got excess...you got all the bad bits of the catabolic side of insulin (the side where you're cells are more likely to eat protein for energy than either fats or glucose), and where immune system function goes very wrong.

Insulin, in excess, promotes high plasma concentrations of FA...and they inturn, take the place of *other* lipids (some already identified here) in binding to what we call orphan nuclear receptors (high level gene control).

You push insulin, cholesterol biosynthesis goes out of whack, and with it, the devious slide into a fatty acid dominated (can we say "Metabolic Syndrome"?) cellular cascade headed right towards pathophysiology, and disease.

Bottom Line: You do not fuck with your liver by use of exogenous insulin.

You want the anabolic effects of insulin? You control it with diet, exercise, proper sleep and stress management, supps if necesssary, to *keep* it from being present in excess and screwing with lipid biosynthesis and metabolism in liver, in fat and other tissues. Note that when you have impaired insulin, you also have impaired glucose uptake. Much of that is directly converted to FA, and these are built up into higher storable fats. When present in blood, along side elevated glucose (that can't get into cells because insulin itself doesn't bind to cell surfaces to chaperone in glucose) causes plaque and clogged arteries in the body..and in the brain. Cardiovascular disease.

The alteration of immune control, thats tied into cancer.

Why? Because our diet has seriously eroded and physical activity has become a luxury, not a lifestyle staple.

Therein lies the supreme rub. We are hardwired and geared for a diet that features a select mix of fat tyoes and carbs that mostly fiberous and slow release. Life on the farm, the way of living for countless generations, fined tuned our metabolic control, way on the top shelf gene level, to expect a certain mix of fat *types* and carb *types*.

See? Lipids rule. They're probably the first self assembled organic layers on earth.

We're just now figuring out, that the dietary fats/lipids themselves are critical in their role of gene control.

Remove the traditional fat mix from the picture by a poor diet....replace them with unhealthy fats that also increase insulin release (yep. ain't just carbs that does it, some amino acids do as well...) and compete for binding with the fatty acids released by insulin in excess, and you have molecular mayhem.

That, my fellow forum members, is much of the disease cause we see in our modern age. About three quarters of it.

See my point? You got fucking EXCESS of insulin in most cases, it jest don't work quite right.

You wanna be big? You get your metabolic house in order, get your insulin control down and get that sucker to function correctly, you'll see what I mean by anabolic action. Recall my point - insulin has a hand in the control of sex hormone anabolic action. It can promotenatural production of the testosterone and estrogen, hGH / IGF-1, and it can shut 'em down.

Key point: its the erosion of insulin control is correlated to changes in testosterone production throughout middle age and into advanced age (yeah, thats right, thats why viagra and cialis are big sellers, eh?)

Insulin, its what NOT for dinner.
 
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