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Glutamine
- Thread starter njc
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Many people here love it and many do not think its worth anything. I have no problem with anyone that says they feel it is worthless FOR THEM PERSONALLY, and as long as they tried it themselves and used it properly before forming their opinion. However, if they say its worthless for everyone, and/or have never even used it themselves, then they should just keep quiet.
I am a huge proponent of glutamine and use it with all of my clients.
I am a huge proponent of glutamine and use it with all of my clients.
I love Glut. I ingest huge amounts, but no ill effects. Love it.l
SlimShady said:
Thats FAR too little to see/feel any appreciable effects. That is only 1.5 g per day total. You will need 10 x that amount. You are better off with the powdered versions.
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Ok then, when I buy some supps next week, I will grab some powered glutamine. How much per day and when? Mix it in the protein shake? I think I have 200 of these caps.. I suppose I could break them all open and dump the powder into a bottle.
the only time u should mix em with ur shake, is if u decide to purchase glutamine peptides. Otherwise, with L glut, absorbtion is far from maximal when ingested with food. I ahd to fix that in my supplementation a few weeks back...SlimShady said:
Glutamine is a waste of time IMO. The vast majority of clinical studies report no boost in athletic performance. It may help your immune system if you're overtraining though. Most of the glutamine you ingest is destroyed in the stomach.
Here's an example of one study:-
Here's an example of one study:-
Should I Spend my Hard-Earned Money on Glutamine or Hookers?
Q: In a recent T-mag article, glutamine was described as pretty much worthless if you're already taking care of protein and post-workout protein/carb/amino needs. What's your opinion? Is glutamine overrated?
A: Well, for starters, glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid???
Aww hell; I'm not going start my response off with the standard opening line that just about everyone uses to indirectly affix grandiose importance to this amino acid! Sure, it's conditionally essential (meaning that although it's not absolutely necessary in the diet, our requirements for glutamine can exceed our production of it in certain conditions).
Yes, it makes up 2/3 of the muscle's free amino acid pool (which is a pretty damn small part of the muscle's total amino acid content anyway) and sure, glutamine has been shown to have some pretty amazing benefits in wasting conditions, postoperative patients, and in TPN (total parenteral nutrition).
But as bodybuilding/fitness writers, it's about time we put aside this useless trivia and discuss the utility of glutamine supplementation for athletes, weight lifters, etc. A few years ago there were no data and therefore we could speculate all we wanted about the theoretical potential of glutamine supplementation. But nowadays, we've got the data and the data demonstrate that our theories may have been wrong.
To this end, I applaud my good friend David Barr on his excellent articles (Glutamine ??? Destroying the Dogma Part I and Part II) that revealed that despite all the conjecture about how glutamine supplementation may help increase muscle mass, muscle strength, and prevent overtraining, each and every research investigation examining the effects of glutamine supplementation on exercise performance, body composition, and protein degradation has shown that it offers no benefit. Because of the great job that Dave did in his literature review, I certainly don't have to provide a reference list ??? they're all right there at the end of his article.
To reiterate a few of the key points that Dave brought up in his article and that I brought up at the SWIS seminar:
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/qa/afc/afc_nov082002.htm
Q: In a recent T-mag article, glutamine was described as pretty much worthless if you're already taking care of protein and post-workout protein/carb/amino needs. What's your opinion? Is glutamine overrated?
A: Well, for starters, glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid???
Aww hell; I'm not going start my response off with the standard opening line that just about everyone uses to indirectly affix grandiose importance to this amino acid! Sure, it's conditionally essential (meaning that although it's not absolutely necessary in the diet, our requirements for glutamine can exceed our production of it in certain conditions).
Yes, it makes up 2/3 of the muscle's free amino acid pool (which is a pretty damn small part of the muscle's total amino acid content anyway) and sure, glutamine has been shown to have some pretty amazing benefits in wasting conditions, postoperative patients, and in TPN (total parenteral nutrition).
But as bodybuilding/fitness writers, it's about time we put aside this useless trivia and discuss the utility of glutamine supplementation for athletes, weight lifters, etc. A few years ago there were no data and therefore we could speculate all we wanted about the theoretical potential of glutamine supplementation. But nowadays, we've got the data and the data demonstrate that our theories may have been wrong.
To this end, I applaud my good friend David Barr on his excellent articles (Glutamine ??? Destroying the Dogma Part I and Part II) that revealed that despite all the conjecture about how glutamine supplementation may help increase muscle mass, muscle strength, and prevent overtraining, each and every research investigation examining the effects of glutamine supplementation on exercise performance, body composition, and protein degradation has shown that it offers no benefit. Because of the great job that Dave did in his literature review, I certainly don't have to provide a reference list ??? they're all right there at the end of his article.
To reiterate a few of the key points that Dave brought up in his article and that I brought up at the SWIS seminar:
??? A high protein diet provides a big whack of glutamine as it is. In fact, if you follow standard bodybuilding protein recommendations, about 10% of your total dietary protein intake is composed of glutamine (milk proteins are composed of somewhere between 3 ??? 10% glutamine while meat is composed of about 15% glutamine). This means that a high protein diet (400g/day) already provides me with about 40g of glutamine.
??? While the theorists still cling to the idea that since glutamine helps clinical stress, it might help with exercise stress, it???s important to note that exercise stress has got nothin??? on surgery, cancer, sepsis, burns, etc. For example, when compared with downhill running or weight lifting, urinary nitrogen loss is 15x (1400%) greater in minor surgery, 25x (2400%) greater in major surgery, and 33x (3200%) greater in sepsis. When it comes to the immune response, it???s about 9x (800%) greater with surgery. When it comes to metabolic increase, it???s 7x (600%) greater with burn injury, and when it comes to creatine kinase release; it???s about 2x (100%) greater with surgery. As I said, exercise has got nothin??? on real, clinical stress. It???s like trying to compare the damage inflicted by a peashooter and that inflicted by a rocket launcher.
??? The major studies examining glutamine supplementation in otherwise healthy weightlifters have shown no effect. In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation. Folks, that's 90g per day for some lifters.
??? The majority of the studies using glutamine supplementation in endurance athletes have shown little to no measurable benefit on performance or immune function.
??? And with respect to glycogen replenishment in endurance athletes, it's interesting to note that the first study that looked at glycogen resynthesis using glutamine missed a couple of things. Basically, the study showed that after a few glycogen depleting hours of cycling at a high percentage of VO2 max interspersed with very intense cycle sprints that were supramaximal, a drink containing 8g of glutamine replenished glycogen to the same extent as a drink containing 61g of carbohydrate.
The problem was that during the recovery period, a constant IV infusion of labeled glucose was given (i.e., a little bit of glucose was given to both groups by IV infusion). While this isn't too big of a deal on its own since the infusion only provided a couple of grams of glucose, the other problem is that during glycogen depleting exercise, a lot of alanine, lactate, and other gluconeogenic precursors are released from the muscle.
What this means is that there's a good amount of glucose that will be formed after such exercise, glucose that will be made in the liver from the gluconeogenic precursors and that will travel to the muscle to replenish glycogen. Therefore, without a placebo group that receives no calories, carbohydrates, or glutamine, we have no idea of knowing whether or not the placebo would have generated the same amount of glycogen replenishment as the glutamine group or the glutamine plus carbohydrate group. To say it another way, perhaps there's a normal glycogen replenishment curve that was unaffected by any of the treatments.
??? And finally, with respect to the claims that glutamine might increase cell swelling/volume (something I once believed was a reality), we decided to test this theory out in our lab using multifrequency bioelectric impedance analysis as well as magnetic resonance spectroscopy. The pilot data that's kicking around has demonstrated that glutamine supplementation has no effect on total body water, intracellular fluid volumes, or extracellular fluid volumes (as measured by mBIA) and has no effect on muscle volume (as measured by nMRS).
Therefore, at the present time, I think it's safe to conclude that glutamine supplementation probably offers little to no benefit with respect to athletic performance or body composition when given to well-fed, healthy athletes. But I don't want to totally burst anyone's little glutamine bubble. After all, I'm not saying that glutamine supplementation is totally worthless. As Dave Barr pointed out in his article, there may be some circumstances in which glutamine supplementation is of benefit. Here are some of them:??? While the theorists still cling to the idea that since glutamine helps clinical stress, it might help with exercise stress, it???s important to note that exercise stress has got nothin??? on surgery, cancer, sepsis, burns, etc. For example, when compared with downhill running or weight lifting, urinary nitrogen loss is 15x (1400%) greater in minor surgery, 25x (2400%) greater in major surgery, and 33x (3200%) greater in sepsis. When it comes to the immune response, it???s about 9x (800%) greater with surgery. When it comes to metabolic increase, it???s 7x (600%) greater with burn injury, and when it comes to creatine kinase release; it???s about 2x (100%) greater with surgery. As I said, exercise has got nothin??? on real, clinical stress. It???s like trying to compare the damage inflicted by a peashooter and that inflicted by a rocket launcher.
??? The major studies examining glutamine supplementation in otherwise healthy weightlifters have shown no effect. In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation. Folks, that's 90g per day for some lifters.
??? The majority of the studies using glutamine supplementation in endurance athletes have shown little to no measurable benefit on performance or immune function.
??? And with respect to glycogen replenishment in endurance athletes, it's interesting to note that the first study that looked at glycogen resynthesis using glutamine missed a couple of things. Basically, the study showed that after a few glycogen depleting hours of cycling at a high percentage of VO2 max interspersed with very intense cycle sprints that were supramaximal, a drink containing 8g of glutamine replenished glycogen to the same extent as a drink containing 61g of carbohydrate.
The problem was that during the recovery period, a constant IV infusion of labeled glucose was given (i.e., a little bit of glucose was given to both groups by IV infusion). While this isn't too big of a deal on its own since the infusion only provided a couple of grams of glucose, the other problem is that during glycogen depleting exercise, a lot of alanine, lactate, and other gluconeogenic precursors are released from the muscle.
What this means is that there's a good amount of glucose that will be formed after such exercise, glucose that will be made in the liver from the gluconeogenic precursors and that will travel to the muscle to replenish glycogen. Therefore, without a placebo group that receives no calories, carbohydrates, or glutamine, we have no idea of knowing whether or not the placebo would have generated the same amount of glycogen replenishment as the glutamine group or the glutamine plus carbohydrate group. To say it another way, perhaps there's a normal glycogen replenishment curve that was unaffected by any of the treatments.
??? And finally, with respect to the claims that glutamine might increase cell swelling/volume (something I once believed was a reality), we decided to test this theory out in our lab using multifrequency bioelectric impedance analysis as well as magnetic resonance spectroscopy. The pilot data that's kicking around has demonstrated that glutamine supplementation has no effect on total body water, intracellular fluid volumes, or extracellular fluid volumes (as measured by mBIA) and has no effect on muscle volume (as measured by nMRS).
??? Steroid users who are improperly coming off a cycle might need some. When coming off a steroid cycle, blood Testosterone concentrations are dismally low while cortisol levels become quite elevated. If said steroid user continues training (which he/she must to try to preserve their muscle mass), the catabolic stimulation might be significant. It still doesn't approach clinical catabolism but it may just become bad enough that some extra glutamine might help. This is just a guess, however.
??? When trying to get really lean, many bodybuilders restrict energy intake and increase exercise volume and might need some glutamine. This type of energy deficit may signal the body to begin using protein as an energy source, cutting into valuable muscle resources. In addition this catabolic stimulus will be compounded by the exercise stress and may lead to excess catabolism. Perhaps glutamine may help out in these scenarios. Again, a guess.
??? In elite endurance athletes training intensely 2 or 3 times in a given day, I might prescribe some. Although I rarely recommend glutamine to my clients, my elite cross country skiers are encouraged to take it mostly during their trips to altitude camp and for glacier training. These athletes train 2-3 times per day for a week or two at a time while living in tents on a glacier at altitude. Add on the fact that nutrition on such excursions is bare bones, so that's some stress that glutamine might help with.
??? When injured and trying to prevent wasting or facilitate wound/soft tissue injury, take some. Williams et al (2002) demonstrated that daily supplementation with 3g of HMB, 14g of glutamine, and 14g of arginine can lead to increased wound healing.
So when all is said and done, I pretty much agree with Dave's appraisal of the value of glutamine supplementation for well-fed weightlifters and bodybuilders. Considering how much protein most bodybuilders consume, additional glutamine supplementation are probably worthless. However, like any other question, there isn't a black and white answer. There do remain a few situations, as discussed above, that glutamine might be a supplement to consider. Personally, I only prescribe it to my skiers during altitude and glacier training, to steroid users coming "off," to bodybuilders during the last few weeks of competition dieting, and to people who are injured and trying hard to recover. And, of course, to those with legitimate wasting conditions. If you don't fall into any of these categories, spend your money on more groceries.??? When trying to get really lean, many bodybuilders restrict energy intake and increase exercise volume and might need some glutamine. This type of energy deficit may signal the body to begin using protein as an energy source, cutting into valuable muscle resources. In addition this catabolic stimulus will be compounded by the exercise stress and may lead to excess catabolism. Perhaps glutamine may help out in these scenarios. Again, a guess.
??? In elite endurance athletes training intensely 2 or 3 times in a given day, I might prescribe some. Although I rarely recommend glutamine to my clients, my elite cross country skiers are encouraged to take it mostly during their trips to altitude camp and for glacier training. These athletes train 2-3 times per day for a week or two at a time while living in tents on a glacier at altitude. Add on the fact that nutrition on such excursions is bare bones, so that's some stress that glutamine might help with.
??? When injured and trying to prevent wasting or facilitate wound/soft tissue injury, take some. Williams et al (2002) demonstrated that daily supplementation with 3g of HMB, 14g of glutamine, and 14g of arginine can lead to increased wound healing.
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/qa/afc/afc_nov082002.htm
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I wonder what amount that computes out as per day?? ... Did they take as much as GoPro recommends? ... I'm no math wiz, so forgive me.redspy said:
Plus, the people in the study were aged 18-24... and I wonder if they were just random test subjects or if they had been consistently working out. Regardless of the conclusion, the study does show more gains by the people who took glutamine, even if those gains were small. You gotta remember, these people weren't locked up all six weeks and there is no telling what kind of diet plan they were on (if any at all) nor the intensity of the workouts. I'm 43 years old now, I can use all the help I can get. Even if it costs me $20 to grow an extra 2% in 6 weeks.. I don't care. And I don't mind trying stuff... Gropro likes glutamine, so I'm gonna give it a shot.
Regarding doses see this extract from my second post:-SlimShady said:
If you feel it will give you an extra 2% go ahead. I'm not telling you it won't have any effect, I'm merely pointing out the majority of scientific study suggests it's not worth it. When a number of randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinicals prove otherwise I'll take it.
SlimShady said:
recommended dose is 15-20g a day, your taking 1.5g a day!
them caps are a f'ing rip off man! get the powder.. its dirt cheap if you know where to find it
Glutamine is Worthless - http://www.fitnessgeared.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5691
I guess I'll be called a 'Glutamine Hater" from here on out...
I guess I'll be called a 'Glutamine Hater" from here on out...
BRW
Registered
I'm with SlimShady.
i'm 40 & have used Glutamine in the past with no real results i could see but there may have been some changes i wasn't aware of.
i found when cutting & drop my carbs i find it a lot easier when using Glutamine as it decreases my cravings for carbs but only if i keep the dose fairly high (50-60 grams a day)
less than that i actually think it increases it so it's definitely a seasonal thing due to the cost!!
it's VERY expensive here in Australia.
i also do feel fuller in the muscle. i experimented with this while trying to justify the cost of it.
i usually flatten out when i drop my carb intake so this is a must have while cutting. i hate that small, flat feeling.
i'm 40 & have used Glutamine in the past with no real results i could see but there may have been some changes i wasn't aware of.
i found when cutting & drop my carbs i find it a lot easier when using Glutamine as it decreases my cravings for carbs but only if i keep the dose fairly high (50-60 grams a day)
less than that i actually think it increases it
so it's definitely a seasonal thing due to the cost!!it's VERY expensive here in Australia.
i also do feel fuller in the muscle. i experimented with this while trying to justify the cost of it.
i usually flatten out when i drop my carb intake so this is a must have while cutting. i hate that small, flat feeling.
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Hey Redspy, I see your point and I do appreciate your advice. I don't want to give you the wrong idea that I discount what you say. . I'm just more willing to take a guy like Gropro's advice over the studies. If he says it works for him, I'm willing to try it. He isn't selling it, so he has nothing to gain... plus, he has tried in real world situations with clients. . It would be the same if you posted that you tried it and it worked, that would mean more to me than a study. Heck, I am willling to blow $20 and give it a shot. I might be a sucker, but at this point I am willing to try about anything. At least I don't drink or gamble....lolredspy said:Regarding doses see this extract from my second post:-
If you feel it will give you an extra 2% go ahead. I'm not telling you it won't have any effect, I'm merely pointing out the majority of scientific study suggests it's not worth it. When a number of randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinicals prove otherwise I'll take it.
SlimShady said:
To be a little more accurate I just want you to know that the company that I work for...VPX...DOES sell glutamine. However, while this is the brand that I use now, I have used all major brands with success and invite you to pick a brand that has a good price for you. As long as it is not some "fly-by-night" company, than the quality of most L-glutamine's will be similar.
Thanks for your confidence in me. While studies can be extremely important, they are not the end-all-be-all and often do not reflect what happens in the real world. I have built my physique from 125 to well over 250 lbs using nothing more than hard training, proper diet, and a few supplements...glutamine has been one of them, and always will.
As far as the caps you have, you will need 10 at a time, and 3 times per day for a decent effect. Next time get the powder and it will be easier and more economical. Also, use it on an empty stomach and not with other proteins.
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When it comes to glutamine, I think some people are mistakenly looking for a "seat of the pants" feel when they take it. They are looking for pumps or some really noticeable sign, but I think it is more subtle than that. On the research that I have done and read on it, and something I haven't seen mentioned much on this topic is some of the other ways glutamine helps out. For one, it is supposed to aid in what they call "gut integrity," meaning that with all the food and other supplements we lifters shove down our throats, glut helps to keep digestion and the other mechanisms running smoothly. Two, it is also supposed to help with immune system function, just like vit C and E and the like. I find that when I take the stuff regularly, which I have for over a year now, any colds and things I get never really set in at full strength. And, the glut also seems to help keep my muscle soreness down, so that seems to be a benefit. So if redspy is on the glut-hater side, I would definitely be on the lover side...
I touched on some of the GI/immunity benefits you refer to last year - see this post http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=762855&postcount=26Reignman35 said:When it comes to glutamine, I think some people are mistakenly looking for a "seat of the pants" feel when they take it. They are looking for pumps or some really noticeable sign, but I think it is more subtle than that. On the research that I have done and read on it, and something I haven't seen mentioned much on this topic is some of the other ways glutamine helps out. For one, it is supposed to aid in what they call "gut integrity," meaning that with all the food and other supplements we lifters shove down our throats, glut helps to keep digestion and the other mechanisms running smoothly. Two, it is also supposed to help with immune system function, just like vit C and E and the like. I find that when I take the stuff regularly, which I have for over a year now, any colds and things I get never really set in at full strength. And, the glut also seems to help keep my muscle soreness down, so that seems to be a benefit. So if redspy is on the glut-hater side, I would definitely be on the lover side...
I only had noticeable results with glutamine during the last month of my contest. I used it to keep the immune system (during overtraining) mainly and it also helped for the obvious reasons. Other than that, glut didnt do a damn thing.
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Cool. I stand corrected. I had not done a serious glutamine search on this board, I was just referring to the recent stuff I had seen.redspy said:
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BTW, if anybody is in fact looking for a cheap source, I take Optimum's glut that comes in a 1000 gram tub for only around 40 bucks. I take 5-10 grams a day depending on workout or off days, and the tub lasts around 5-6 months. Even if it JUST helps with your intestinal tract or what not and immune system it seems to me like a good benefit for only two Andrew Jackson's.
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Hey thanks for the info. I didn't mean to seem as if I was ignoring your post, I was just caught up in the debate. What brand of glutamine are you using? Do you think it has worked?crazy_enough said:
Yup.. I only paid $10 for the caps, so it didn't break me, but I gotta get powder now.young d said:
PreMier said:Exactly. You can post all the studies ever done, but no one will listen to you. Then a few weeks later, they will post a thread stating that it isnt working
The problem is that those that don't believe in glutamine continue to ignore those that use it and can attest to its positive effects.
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gopro said:
Well, it goes back to the age old question of "how does one define recovery?". Thats what glutamine is supposed to do, right? Help one recover? It doesnt matter what they think, because there really is no way of proving it effective.. and someone saying "I feel it makes me less sore" isnt enough for me.
This is a useless debate, so whatever. I wont waste my money, or lose any sleep over those that do.